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 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:48 am
Free choice, the right to choose between evil and good. Do we have this freedom, or not?
Since G-d already knows everything, the past, the future, the present, what your going to choose, and what your going to do, do we really have free choice? How free are you if someone knows what we are going to do anyways. Does he really know everything? How is it possible if we are supposed to have "free choice"? It's already known, so you're not really deciding... or are you?
How can we be punished for our evil choices if it wasn't really our choice in the first place? I was wondering how you all deal with this question 3nodding .
Discuss -
- What is free choice?
- Do you think we have free choice, and how is it made possible?
- How much free choice do we have?
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:00 pm
Well, I think free choice is basically what is says- having the freedom to make your own choices, whether stupid, intelligent, or whatever.
I think we do have free choice: G-d may know what we are going to do, but he does not make us do it: that is our own fault, and we have our own consequences. It annoys me when people never take responsibility for their own actions- nobody made them do anything. If you were to take a gun and shoot somebody, you are responsible- not the gun company he bought it from, not the inventor of the gun, YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL.
This is similar to frivolous lawsuits, in a way. People shouldn't sue McDonalds for making them fat- sure, they may have fatty food, but ultimately, it was THEIR DECISION for buying it. It is made possible by a bunch of scientific stuff in the brain blaugh
I also feel there is no such thing as fate or destiny, or if there is, you are responsible for your own destiny. The free choices one makes influence their life as a whole.
And I think we have all the free choice we could possibly want- why do you think the world is steadily and exponentially degrading and going down the hill? rolleyes
Interesting discussion questions, by the way. biggrin 3nodding
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:09 pm
The main issue I was wondering how you guys would deal with is: How can we really be punished if G-d already knew we'd do it? Why would G-d put someone evil in the world if he knew he would do evil, and then punish him? Okay, so it was his free choice and his own will to do so, that is true, but is it really free if it is already known?
This is an interesting question, and I answer it this way, like Cindy said - Even though G-d knows what you decided, that doesn't take away the free choice. G-d knows the concequences of all your actions, he knows the paths you will take in life, he knows where you will go. But the only reason he knows this in the first place is because in the future you are going to choose to do so!
Try to grasp this concept - The reason G-d knows you will choose something is because that is what YOU choosed. Even though G-d knows what you are going to choose, why would that take away your free choice?
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:45 pm
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:51 am
rofl Yes, did we choose to do so, or did we already and we are just trying to understand why? xd . Don't you love those perfect moments you can choose the right thing to do...? Where you can wave at them as they pass by? rofl
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Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:41 am
nathan_ngl rofl Yes, did we choose to do so, or did we already and we are just trying to understand why? xd . i love that movie. so cerebral. and if you like that, eva is better. and with giant robots. Quote: Don't you love those perfect moments you can choose the right thing to do...? Where you can wave at them as they pass by? rofl every second of every day.
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:26 pm
getting a little sci fi here but what if there is more than one descision
and on an alternate plane of reality we made that descision.
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:27 pm
MANNOWAR getting a little sci fi here but what if there is more than one descision and on an alternate plane of reality we made that descision. then nothing. there's no way to prove such a thing exists, and even then, it would have no effect on any other "plane". besides, permutating every decision in history? i dunno...
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:35 pm
ZonkotheSane MANNOWAR getting a little sci fi here but what if there is more than one descision and on an alternate plane of reality we made that descision. then nothing. there's no way to prove such a thing exists, and even then, it would have no effect on any other "plane". besides, permutating every decision in history? i dunno... Well, G-d is infinate...
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Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:50 pm
nathan_ngl ZonkotheSane MANNOWAR getting a little sci fi here but what if there is more than one descision and on an alternate plane of reality we made that descision. then nothing. there's no way to prove such a thing exists, and even then, it would have no effect on any other "plane". besides, permutating every decision in history? i dunno... Well, G-d is infinate... i suppose it is possible, but it's still totally irrelevant, as there is no way to prove or disprove, nor to apply such knowledge.. pure waste of thought and time.
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:20 am
our actions can change the future.
for example, there was a girl who was dying, a jewish name is very important, so she changed her name from sarah to Sarah Chaya, to give her life....and instead of dying she miraculoulsy healed...
not such a great example, but you get it sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:47 am
mellella our actions can change the future. for example, there was a girl who was dying, a jewish name is very important, so she changed her name from sarah to Sarah Chaya, to give her life....and instead of dying she miraculoulsy healed... not such a great example, but you get it sweatdrop that's related, but really a whole nother discussion all together. good point, though 3nodding now maybea discussion on the power of a name.... (cue naphtali)
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:12 pm
ZonkotheSane mellella our actions can change the future. for example, there was a girl who was dying, a jewish name is very important, so she changed her name from sarah to Sarah Chaya, to give her life....and instead of dying she miraculoulsy healed... not such a great example, but you get it sweatdrop that's related, but really a whole nother discussion all together. good point, though 3nodding now maybea discussion on the power of a name.... (cue naphtali) An interesting thing I heard about the importance of your name... there is great meaning behind knowing your name... it has power that effects your life afterwards. Not only that, but when you go up to shamayim, you will be so afraid during your judgement of deeds that you will forget your name! (unless you learn some special psukim). If you succeed in remembering your name, you succeed defending yourself, aquiring a hidden power. Names have something behind them... Especiall the shem hamiforash... One of G-d's devine names, that if pronounced correctly, has the power to do nearly anything (fly, kill, destroy, you name it!). I'll ask my rav what he has to say about names, I'm sure there is more to it than meets the eye...
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:10 pm
nathan_ngl ZonkotheSane mellella our actions can change the future. for example, there was a girl who was dying, a jewish name is very important, so she changed her name from sarah to Sarah Chaya, to give her life....and instead of dying she miraculoulsy healed... not such a great example, but you get it sweatdrop that's related, but really a whole nother discussion all together. good point, though 3nodding now maybea discussion on the power of a name.... (cue naphtali) An interesting thing I heard about the importance of your name... there is great meaning behind knowing your name... it has power that effects your life afterwards. Not only that, but when you go up to shamayim, you will be so afraid during your judgement of deeds that you will forget your name! (unless you learn some special psukim). If you succeed in remembering your name, you succeed defending yourself, aquiring a hidden power. Names have something behind them... Especiall the shem hamiforash... One of G-d's devine names, that if pronounced correctly, has the power to do nearly anything (fly, kill, destroy, you name it!). I'll ask my rav what he has to say about names, I'm sure there is more to it than meets the eye... i don't know about "special powers", but who am i to say. still, i'm curious who says that. in viewing Creation as pure computer code, the shem hamiforash are roughly the equivalent of complete override passwords. type this in, wipe your hard drive, type this in, your screen pigment is negative. oh, and actually pronouncing them (the few we know how to pronounce) is one of the harsher transgressions one can commit. supposedly, yushka (jesus) used a form of the shem hamiforash to perfom his "miracles". a name also dictates, to a certain extant, one's personality traits. of course, there are many other factors in such a thing, but one's name does affect one's mindset, feelings, disposition, and even fate. this is the reason for the practice of changing one's name, when one is seriously ill. (also, it's to cheat on the malech hamavais-the angel of death. he's given a name with his assignment, and in changing one's name, we hope to deter him. of course, this doesn't always work, but it helps.) also, it's customary to slightly alter the name of someone who experianced misfortune when naming a child after that person. take me for example. my namesake, yohanasan benyamin, was a brilliant rav in eastern europe, about 200 years ago. however, he was nifter (passed away) at the age of 34. so when my parents named me, yonatan benyamin ("t" and "s" in this context are the same hebrew letter), they dropped the "h" (/hay).
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:21 pm
the very name we call our God attests to the respect we owe Him- Hashem. literally, this means "The Name". just as one calls his father "father", when speaking casually about Hashem, we use the furthest name we can from the actual Names, without actually naming Him. even if a name is not one of the Shem Hamiforash, merely ascribing a name to Him renders it one of His Names. this is why one should not pronounce the entirety of the title "witnesses", or any other translations. even the word "god" should be avoided, if at all possible. (this may be only when used as a proper noun, but i'm no posek, nor english major)
in tefillah (prayer), we use several other names, ie, a-do-noy (master, also how one pronounces yud-vuv-hay-vuv, y-v-h-v), elokim (our God. one substitutes the hay/h for a kuf/k, when not in actual tefillah), elokaynu (variation of above).
in conversation, terms such as rabbanu shel olam (master of the universe), and the Abeister (master, i think. my yiddish isn't too great) aslo are used.
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