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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:51 pm
Dear Pro-Life Guild,
I am a Pro-Choice and/but compassionate individual.
Lately I've noticed that both the guilds I'm in- Pro-life AND Pro-Choice are guilty of presenting only the n00bish, stupid, illogical side of others.
So I write to you today, please, maybe we can meet on friendly grounds and share an intelligent debate.
I feel that both of us need to know that the other side is not a group of stupid smelly gits- whether they be murdering, baby-killing, apathetic and selfish criminals or right-wing nutjobs, Christian Fanatic, God-Loves-Everyone dolts, anti-woman machosists, and flaming idiots overall. (Note, I don't mean any insult, that was to play on my observations of the "other side.")
I don't ask much, only that intelligent and logical (by your definitions and common sense) individuals from both sides meet and have an intelligent 'conversation' that will not escalate into a feeding frenzy.
Maybe we can even have a thread where both sides can discuss, versus asking a Pro-Lifer "Why do they say this?" or a Pro-Choicer, "Are they all religious nuts?"
The answers prompted are... "Because they're stupid baby-murdering gits" and "Yes, they're all like that."
Or just simpler,
Why do we never notice the intelligent people on the other side? Why do the idiotic n00bs gander the most attention?
Now, please don't flame me. It's uncomfortable for me here, to see my side bashed. And it can be just as bad for a pro-lifer there, seeing all but the stupidest arguements like "GOD SAID SO!!!1111!!!!1" being shown, rather than actual logical proof. This has happened on both sides.
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:33 pm
Hellllo! You won't get flamed here, but I did see a lot of generalizations when I read through threads in the past, and I make them too. From what I've seen no one in here has called anyone else names, without their thread getting locked and they get stared down for it, or warned, so you won't die in this place even though everyone here is not like you.
I don't know how to get you settled, but I'm only talking about one part of your post because I have no idea how to fix the other problems, but maybe when they post they'll have something better to say.
... I'm acting like I own this guild!
Welcome~ :3
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Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:49 pm
Oo, thank you! You seem intelligent! Personally, I've been lurking quite a while but now I've resurfaced and am ready to make a debut!
I'm just speaking from experience when I'm being cautious- I walked into a public religious anti-choice (not pro-life, these guys were anti-choice) guild...
"Hi, although I'm pro-choice-"
*Insert n00bs raging here*
Thankfully, this seems a nice place.
But anyways, I'm just looking for intelligent people on both sides that might consider coming to talk up and clear a few things up.
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:30 am
As far as intelligent lifers, there are a lot of us. I don't go into the debate thread much anymore because I'm honestly not really in the mood to debate in a group at this point. I used to debate quite rabidly and I still do on occasion, but for the most part I enjoy simply posting in the prolife guild amongst likeminded individuals. I feel that the debate thread often spirals and repeats on a daily basis but no one's mind is ever changed. I don't think it's the best forum for debate.
However, I will debate one on one. If you're interested in that pm me or aim me at broorel8 smile
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:05 pm
Hello and welcome. As long as you don't start trouble here, you should be fine. Though we may disagree on some major issues, I think it's good to get to know one other (I tried on other threads, they just seem to flame people they disagree with instead of trying to understand one other).
Personally i'm not into religions, I just think killing a human/fetus is wrong (unless for major health reasons,self-defence if it can't be avioded or if their guilty of murder and it's proven and deserve the death penalty). But I don't go stopping people since 1. it is legal and 2. they have free will so they have to make their choices on their own and deal with the concequences of their actions (free will doesn't mean if they do something bad they don't go unpunished, just means they have to make the choice weither or not to do something themselfs and take the risks). So that's abit about me and so you can understand better.
As for noobs, they get attention by mainly either annoying people and/or starting trouble, while an intelligent person tries to avoid trouble much as possible. Basically, what ever stands out more is going to get noticed more.
Both sides bash each other and like it to stop as well (though i've been guilty but most of those times they say something that makes me angry, like saying i'm anti-woman when I am one and don't hate them, that makes no since to me to be called anti-woman just because I don't agree with abortion or something like that. Though when respectful, I try to be nice and avoid it. Mainly why I don't debate much since someone always says something to make me angry by saying something like that, which is not part of debating).
Noone is perfect, we all make mistakes at times and get angry and say things we shouldn't say. I'll try to watch what I write and say more.
Feel free to pm me if you want to.
Well I hope i'm viewed as an intelligent person.
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:58 pm
We've heard this all before. What makes you diffrent form the last choicer who claimed the same thing you did?
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:41 pm
Air Pirate Mako Streak Oo, thank you! You seem intelligent! Personally, I've been lurking quite a while but now I've resurfaced and am ready to make a debut!
Random idea about a thread that might or might not even be made: But if a thread was made, I think certain discussions would have to be discouraged, like the "What everything means:" arguments, and people would have to stop being offended at the actual names of our groups. ("If they're pro-life, are they implying we're anti-life?" "They're pro-choice? I didn't know I was anti-choice!") In fact we'd probably have to settle with those names we all hate just so people would calm down and realise none of it matters (Pro-abortion and anti-abortion, pro meaning support, not 'only' support.) When you think about it, they are Pro-abortion because they support abortion as a choice, even though it's not her only choice, and we are Anti-abortion because we don't think it should be legal. A lot of you probably already thought of this, though... but then there's tons of people who'd dissagree, so even then there's no winning... anyway.
And then there's a whole other list of arguments that don't lead anywhere and it would have to be posted that no one should bother with them, so that no one would waste their time and get secretly angry over nothing.
(I shrunk it so I wouldn't waste space and so you all wouldn't think it was important)
But this is just what I think, I don't organise anything even though I sound completely mediator-moderator-like and have no idea what I'm saying, so please don't PM me if you're ever expecting more than just a personal opinion because I have no idea what, where and how. ;3And do we have anything to lose? She could be different from them. I've never tried to debate with her before, so I don't have any grudges against her. I don't think it should be hard just to start liking each other, since I don't think she's ever given us insults. But I haven't really seen her anywhere before, so I wouldn't know for sure.
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:13 pm
Pyrotechnic Oracle We've heard this all before. What makes you diffrent form the last choicer who claimed the same thing you did? Unfortunately...yeah... Maybe I'm just nuts...and I already know I'm taking this the wrong way. But...I can't be the only one a little bothered by the request for "intelligent pro-life debate" within our own board. The debate guild was supposed to be for intelligent debate. The debate thread in ED was supposed to be for intelligent debate. This guild is where we can strengthen our arguement. I visit here for intelligent, logical, legal and scientific answers because even though the fact that "God says so" may be good enough for me...it certainly is not for most of the people I've debated with. This is also a place to blow off steam. Unfortunately that means we're gonna blow off steam. Debating is stressful (even more so in an emotionally charged topic such as this one)...one member here actually became very sick due to the stress from debating. So venting about it can be sort of thereputic. To speak realistically...I don't think we'll be bending over backwards to prevent the venting any time soon. There isn't really any other place on Gaia where we can do that. But we do take measures to make sure things don't get out of hand. There is a rule that if we have been rubbed the wrong way by an individual, we won't say who. That to help prevent any overly zealous members from harassing the person...and it's just plain courteous to not mention anyone by name. A lot of us know that all pro-choicers aren't the same and there are many different reasons to be "pro-choice"...some of you don't even like abortion itself but just want it available for health reasons. Most of us have pro-choice friends with whom we can see past our differences. We are going to say things that will probably upset you. That's a given and it is not preventable. Pyro is right in saying that you're not the first to come here with your message. Others has come and left because they just did not like what we had to say. It's not really from mean-spirited personal attacks. The majority of the active members are civil enough to not resort to that. Just comparing abortion to the Holocaust is enough to upset some pro-choicers. Anything that implies that abortion is the killing of an innocent life can be upsetting and frustrating to hear. We know...most of us find the concept upsetting. That's why we're fighting it. So if we find it upsetting, it's perfectly understandable if a pro-choicer finds it not just upsetting...but offensive. All the same, welcome to the guild. Feel free to read what we have. Mixed in with the venting we do have informative articles and discussion going. Just know what you're getting into. No one will attack you personally just for being pro-choice and those that do will be dealt with I'm sure. But at the same time, please understand that this not a neutral guild and it exists for people with a similar opinion on a certain issue. We are a varied and diverse bunch coming from assorted faiths and backgrounds. But we do have one common bond and that is the fact that we are pro-life to the point where we can identify with that stance.
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 6:25 am
My monthly friend is visiting and so I'm going to be a complete b***h right about now. That's my disclaimer.
Firstly, this is the pro-life guild, where do you get off telling us what we can say and when we can say it? We're not the ones starting threads specifically to bash specific people, infact we don't allow members to reference something directly to a specific person, to cut down on personal flaming.
Secondly our guild was all nice and fluffy for awhile, but after countless attacks people get fed ******** up. No, I'm not going to be all nicey nice anymore. I'm not going to directly insult a specific person unless they do so to me, but you don't get to insult MY stance and expect me to sit back and play fair with yours, just because it's the status quo.
And lastly, if a member of the guild has a problem with the way it's being conducted fine, they can say something. However you are pro-choice and therefore I don't consider you a member. This is the pro-life guild don't act like you have any right to have a say in how it's run.
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 7:38 am
Beware the Jabberwock My monthly friend is visiting and so I'm going to be a complete b***h right about now. That's my disclaimer.
Firstly, this is the pro-life guild, where do you get off telling us what we can say and when we can say it? We're not the ones starting threads specifically to bash specific people, infact we don't allow members to reference something directly to a specific person, to cut down on personal flaming.
Secondly our guild was all nice and fluffy for awhile, but after countless attacks people get fed ******** up. No, I'm not going to be all nicey nice anymore. I'm not going to directly insult a specific person unless they do so to me, but you don't get to insult MY stance and expect me to sit back and play fair with yours, just because it's the status quo.
And lastly, if a member of the guild has a problem with the way it's being conducted fine, they can say something. However you are pro-choice and therefore I don't consider you a member. This is the pro-life guild don't act like you have any right to have a say in how it's run. I'd like to add an amendment to this little constitution here. Well, a pesonal amendment. If you support the killing the innocent human beings, then don't expect any amount of respect form me. Streak, you're the enemey, so you can expect me to treat you as such.
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:26 am
And we DID have pro-choice people here. They came in with the same message: "Let's just peacefully discuss and so on." I think they were allowed here, if they promised not to attack against our views on the subject, and promised not to fight in here. This is a sanctuary for many people, that get flamed for their opinions somewhere else. I dont exactly know what happened with the people that were here. At one point, I remember, there were countless fights here, though. Fights between the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice views. As long as I have understood correctly, this place was not created for that. I find this a sanctuary, and a place where we can build the debate on our side.
Personally, I see no reason to have Pro-Choicers here. The debate guild is for that.
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:56 am
Air Pirate Mako Streak Dear Pro-Life Guild, I am a Pro-Choice and/but compassionate individual. I'm sorry, but everyone here believes that's, generally speaking, a contradiction in terms. You can't be completely compassionate when you believe it's okay if innocent people die for no good reason. Quote: Why do we never notice the intelligent people on the other side? Why do the idiotic n00bs gander the most attention? Other idiotic n00bs give them attention. They flame the intelligent. They repeat dumber and dumber s**t just to distract and upset the intelligent. If I took the time to refute every stupid thing I've ever heard a pro-choicer say on Gaia--just on Gaia, mind you!--I'd be able to afford a rather rightly deserved halo. I pay attention to--and I even respect--intelligent pro-choicers. I've met a couple elsewhere online, and maybe one on Gaia. But damn near every thread I've attempted to add to progresses like this: "GET YOUR BIBLE-THUMPING NOSE OUT OF MY CROTCH, STOP FORCING YOUR RELIGION ON OTHER PEOPLE!!!" "I'm an atheist." "YOU JUST WANT TO PUNISH WOMEN FOR HAVING SEX YOU THINK WOMEN WHO LIKE SEX ARE GOING TO HELL!!" "Dude, what the ******** did I just SAY!? Did you even read what I wrote??" See? No listening, no point. I don't think I've ever seen someone acknowledge that their blanket statement might not be completely true. And that's the way a lot of people "debate" on Gaia: if something they read proves them wrong, they ignore it. I haven't taken a look at any abortion debate guilds here, so I can't tell you if they're any better. But my view is that if you really don't give a s**t about fetal humans, just like if you really don't give a s**t about animals, there's not much I can say to change your mind. All I can do is correct any incorrect reasoning you might have behind your position, but if it comes down to "I don't care if animals die, I like meat" or "I don't care if fetuses die, I hate being pregnant," well, you can't argue with convictions like that. You can only argue with claims like "being a vegetarian is unhealthy" or "fetuses aren't alive." So...if you're looking for signs of intelligent pro-life life, well...lurk here?
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:19 am
Ah now I'm scared of people. gonk
Like people have said, we've had problems in the past when we include people who are pro-choice. Some are really wonderful and don't call us things like anti-choice and such. Some get hateful though, so please understand if we're a bit touchy. It's not because most of us here hate understanding the other side, it's that whenever we've tried, we've gotten our hands bitten, it seems. This is kinda like my Gaia home, and at one point I was so fed up with having to defend myself constantly here I accidentally ranted my guts out at someone when she really, really didn't deserve to be ranted at. I could blame it on my poor health that day, but I can't because I know it was just me getting tired of hearing, "Anti-choice anti-choice anti-choice" wherever I went from people whose beliefs I went out of my way to defend against flamers.
I would absolutely love to showcase intelligent points, as much for our sake as anything else. Unfortunately, most of what I personally run into comes from hate mail or people who know my beliefs and don't bother trying to convert me so they stick to the verbal assaults.
Have you tried the abortion debate guild? I can try poking kp into inviting you, it's not extremely active but it's got both sides in the guild. Sometimes there are problems, but not usually. I agree with you, if the people who can put prejudice aside can meet and discuss, it would be a very good thing. I just think there'd be a hard time finding that because it's such a touchy issue.
Basically...I'm just repeating everything I guess. We've tried it before, it caused chaos.
If there was a well moderated thread in the regular Gaia forums or the abortion debate guild with this specific purpose, maintained by people on different sides of the issue, that would be one thing. But if your request is that there be a thread in here or that someone in here go into the main forums and make a thread with that intention without any moderation, construction, etc. from the pro-choice side, I don't think it will work. There are many people in here that I can think of right off the top of my head that would enjoy the kind of discourse you're talking about, but in all the times it's been attempted on both sides, I don't think there's ever been a successful one.
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Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:27 pm
La Veuve Zin Air Pirate Mako Streak Dear Pro-Life Guild, I am a Pro-Choice and/but compassionate individual. I'm sorry, but everyone here believes that's, generally speaking, a contradiction in terms. You can't be completely compassionate when you believe it's okay if innocent people die for no good reason. Quote: Why do we never notice the intelligent people on the other side? Why do the idiotic n00bs gander the most attention? Other idiotic n00bs give them attention. They flame the intelligent. They repeat dumber and dumber s**t just to distract and upset the intelligent. If I took the time to refute every stupid thing I've ever heard a pro-choicer say on Gaia--just on Gaia, mind you!--I'd be able to afford a rather rightly deserved halo. I pay attention to--and I even respect--intelligent pro-choicers. I've met a couple elsewhere online, and maybe one on Gaia. But damn near every thread I've attempted to add to progresses like this: "GET YOUR BIBLE-THUMPING NOSE OUT OF MY CROTCH, STOP FORCING YOUR RELIGION ON OTHER PEOPLE!!!" "I'm an atheist." "YOU JUST WANT TO PUNISH WOMEN FOR HAVING SEX YOU THINK WOMEN WHO LIKE SEX ARE GOING TO HELL!!" "Dude, what the ******** did I just SAY!? Did you even read what I wrote??" See? No listening, no point. I don't think I've ever seen someone acknowledge that their blanket statement might not be completely true. And that's the way a lot of people "debate" on Gaia: if something they read proves them wrong, they ignore it. I haven't taken a look at any abortion debate guilds here, so I can't tell you if they're any better. But my view is that if you really don't give a s**t about fetal humans, just like if you really don't give a s**t about animals, there's not much I can say to change your mind. All I can do is correct any incorrect reasoning you might have behind your position, but if it comes down to "I don't care if animals die, I like meat" or "I don't care if fetuses die, I hate being pregnant," well, you can't argue with convictions like that. You can only argue with claims like "being a vegetarian is unhealthy" or "fetuses aren't alive." So...if you're looking for signs of intelligent pro-life life, well...lurk here? i have heard all of those, and of course, the ever- popular, quite literally, "i didn't read your post but you're still stupid and wrong" no, i'm not exagerating, and the member who did this who pops into my head's name happens to start with an "n". you guess.
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