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Spanish Nerd
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 8:29 am


This is kind of a weird thing, but how do you guys think languages started? How were so many different languages born?

Also, what created different dialects, and why do those dialects sound the way they do?
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:34 am


They have theories for this stuff, you don't need our opinions.

Wikipedia.

See also: evolutionary linguistics, comparative linguistics.

Sub Pahar


Spanish Nerd
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:02 pm


I know there are theories...it doesn't mean they are true. Look at Evolution and Creationism. They're both theories, no? But are they proven?

I WANT your opinions; trust me. 3nodding
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:22 pm


This is actually a really good question 3nodding

First of all I want to clear up that from this point forward, unless I specifically state so: assume that I'm talking about humans. Animals have very different speech patterns from humans and I'm not going to talk about them or any other form of life (eg plants but as far as I know, plants don't talk at all).

Everybody (humans AND animals) needs some kind of form of communication. My assumption is that stone age people did not have a type of speech all that advanced even compared to animals, with basic grunts and noises being used to express very simple ideas (for example one type of grunt that might have meant "I'm hungry"). As humans advanced, however, it was no longer sufficient to only be able to express hunger, anger, happiness, and cold.

An interesting thing that my grade 6 French teacher told me is that the oldest words in any language are Sun and Moon. This is probably because it was amongst the first things that people noticed (people must have noticed grass and water and other things too, but I image that things like grass and water were less mysterious because they do not appear to change places like the sun and moon do).

My guess is that as society developed, the need to communicate increased. Even earning a living became more complex because people were no longer just trapping animals with their hands to eat, but actually doing farming or some type of other work. So, with the need to communicate increasing, I'm guessing that people started assigning "sounds" to certain objects, to make it easier to explain something to somebody else. For example the blue flowy thing that people saw in streams came to be known as "water" in English, and the tall brown things with green at the top became "trees" and so on.

Early sentences were probably random packs of words thrown together. Did you know that grammar was created artificially by writers? Writers were seen as well-educated, and so those who were literate but not necessarily writers themselves would read works written by authors and try to find patterns in their sentences, and eventually those patterns became official in said language.

The problem with this, of course, is that until quite recently most people were illiterate, and even those who could read a bit didn't necessarily do so a lot. I think this is why low class people are often thought of as being worse educated, even to this day. Taking the Middle Ages as an example - the high-class had a speech pattern similar to what you see in Shakespeares books. Ever seen Pirates of the Carribean? Most lower-class people didn't sound much more intelligent than the pirates in that movie. Today the difference between rich and poor people's way of talking is obviously much smaller due to better communication systems (TV, internet, etc), more schooling, and the fact that even the poor can usually afford books, but there still exists a difference.

I also think that a lot of ideas were eventually thought of as time passed and as people began to get new ideas about things. That is why some languages have words that other languages may not have:

-in many langauges there are no words for "a" and "the" (Japanese, Russian, Latin, etc)

-some languages (Russian and Hebrew) have no conjugation for the To Be verb in the present tense. If I wanted to say "I'm Jewish" in Hebrew, I would say Ani yehudeah - literally "I Jewish" because there's no am, is, or are in Hebrew

-some langauges (Russian, Hebrew, Finnish) have no "to have" verb. In Russian if you want to say I have a cat for example, you would literally be saying "At me there is cat" (in Hebrew and Finnish it would be "To me there is cat")

-Japanese is the only language I know with special particle words that indicate another word's function in the sentence

-etc

Proudly_Jewish
Captain


Proudly_Jewish
Captain

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:04 pm


I've just read the Wikipedia article and I have to say, it doesn't say very much. It is 100% theoretical and many of theory's points seem to be wild guesses with little reasoning in them confused Language definitely existed long before the creation of the Hebrew language...
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:14 pm


Proudly_Jewish
An interesting thing that my grade 6 French teacher told me is that the oldest words in any language are Sun and Moon. This is probably because it was amongst the first things that people noticed (people must have noticed grass and water and other things too, but I image that things like grass and water were less mysterious because they do not appear to change places like the sun and moon do).

My guess is that as society developed, the need to communicate increased. Even earning a living became more complex because people were no longer just trapping animals with their hands to eat, but actually doing farming or some type of other work. So, with the need to communicate increasing, I'm guessing that people started assigning "sounds" to certain objects, to make it easier to explain something to somebody else. For example the blue flowy thing that people saw in streams came to be known as "water" in English, and the tall brown things with green at the top became "trees" and so on.

These two are especially good. 3nodding I like those ideas, that the need for better communication developed an actual language.

Spanish Nerd
Vice Captain


Spanish Nerd
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:16 pm


Proudly_Jewish
I've just read the Wikipedia article and I have to say, it doesn't say very much. It is 100% theoretical and many of theory's points seem to be wild guesses with little reasoning in them confused Language definitely existed long before the creation of the Hebrew language...

That's just why I asked for opinions. Theories are bascially that, no? whee More intelligent people (the people in this guild, aw heart ) could give me better ideas. wink
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:57 am


I once heard that the word "mother" (and all the other Indo-European equivalents, presumably) developed from the "mah" sound that babies tend to make...

Sorry I can't contribute more. I'll take a look at that Wiki though.

Proudly_Jewish
-some langauges (Russian, Hebrew, Finnish) have no "to have" verb. In Russian if you want to say I have a cat for example, you would literally be saying "At me there is cat" (in Hebrew and Finnish it would be "To me there is cat")
It's the same with Welsh, apparently - the Welsh version would translate as "there is a cat with me"/"a cat is with me". (Or, if you're keeping the exact word order, "is cat with me".)

DavidGemmell


Lady9tales

PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:08 am


Interesting theory about the word mother. Could it not have happened the other way round, though - that the babies just say that because they are imitating the adults saying "mother?" That's certainly how babies learn to speak - by copying sounds that their parents make. If your theory were the case, it would mean that all languages would have to have this "mah" sound if it were coming from the babies themselves - is this the case? I'm not sure, as I've only ever studied Indo-European languages, and in all the cases I'm aware of the sound "m" is used, and I'm pretty sure it is reconstructed with an "m" for Indo-European.

I'm completely in agreement with Proudly_Jewish's theory about language. Particularly interesting is the part relating to jobs, I think, as you often find that languages will adopt words of other languages who have jobs, etc that they do not have. I think my philology tutor said that the word for horse originally was not Indo-European, but borrowed from somewhere else when they first started using horses (or at least this is the theory used to explain the difficulties in re-constructing this word, as it seems to have "kw" as opposed to a labiovelar "kw" as just one sound).
PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:49 pm


I'm not too sure on the 'mah' theory about mother either. Only because, in a pre-historic setting, the family unit was much larger than mother, father, sister, brother, etc. People lived in small groups, and their would've been no predefined role as mother or father, because the entire group would look after the child.

I really like the Sun and Moon concept, and I think they are such old words, because no matter where you live, anywhere, the Sun and Moon will always be there, and they will always be the same. Things such as water, earth, grass and tress, things of the environment, can differ from place to place.

I think that's all I have to add on the topic.

WellzY


anasca

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:23 am


Just an interesting fact for the sun and moon theory- in Te Reo Maori sun is 'Ra', and on the other side of the world in ancient Egypt sun was again 'Ra'. These two cultures developed on completly opposite sides of the globe and would have had no contact yet their word origins for these basic words are the same.
Just a random comment biggrin
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:54 pm


There is also the relationship between concepts and their symbols in language.

For example: In American Sign Language, to mime an embrace means "love" (as in crossing your hands in front of your chest, similarly to the position of the arms on an ancient egyptian sarcophagus)


It's similar to when words sound like the concept it is describing:

Bark
Yelp
Meow
Crunch
Crash
Thud
Scratch

And so forth...

Kimyanji


WellzY

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:13 pm


Kimyanji
It's similar to when words sound like the concept it is describing:

Bark
Yelp
Meow
Crunch
Crash
Thud
Scratch

And so forth...

Well actually, such words which sound similar to a noise they're describing, are known as onomatopoeia. And I had to check an online dictionary, because I still have no idea how to spell that word.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:11 pm


WellzY
Kimyanji
It's similar to when words sound like the concept it is describing:

Bark
Yelp
Meow
Crunch
Crash
Thud
Scratch

And so forth...

Well actually, such words which sound similar to a noise they're describing, are known as onomatopoeia. And I had to check an online dictionary, because I still have no idea how to spell that word.
That's the concept I was thinking of! It might be universal...

In Arabic:
qarsh = crunch
miwa' = meow
sharar = spark

my favorite:
naa'im = soft
KHaSHin = rough (and that's a heavy Kh sound...)

Kimyanji


WellzY

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:56 am


It is a universal thing.

And I love the word Khashin. I love semetic words with that rich guteral sound. At least, I'm assuming it has one of those.
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Etymology and Language History

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