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 Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:39 am
Ok after thinking about this for a while and trying to figure out anatta and rebirth, what exactly gets carried on to another life, realising I still don't have a bloody clue how it works and pondering that analogy you guys always use of flame+new candle etc I thought of a different one, and I'd like to know if it's close or way off, and if it's way off could you please alter/improve it or hell, throw it out the window altogether and just explain to me please heart
Ok so, if I have a big bag of clay, right, one of those huge ones
and I take a section out of it, and other people take other sections out of it
And let's say I mould this clay into a certain shape, or start to.
then I stop and smush it a bit or entirely and start moulding another one, which may or be similar to the first one I did or may be way off or may be anywhere in between
and then I start again and keep on in this manner over time, and so does everyone else with theirs.
is that close, because I keep remoulding the clay each time, and despite whatever the shape I make of it and how different it may look to anyone else's and how theirs has been shaped, it's still really the same clay as anyone else's when you get down to it
or is it way off because I'm using exactly the same clay each time, despite how differently it may look?
Sorry if this makes no sense
and thanks in advance heart
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:36 pm
Borrowing your example, I'd tend to think of it more this way...
Beginning with the original bag of clay. Think of this as one's body. The clay is broken up and becomes all those forms which others create.
(It doesn't even begin with the bag of clay, since the clay would of had to come from a quarry where it was separated from more clay, which was separated from the Earth.... and so on.)
Now, if I were to look at all the different sculptures made from what was formerly bagged clay... I could ask, which of the figures is the original clay block? blaugh
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 9:19 pm
I don't know the answer to your question, bluewolfcub. I'm sorry. But I think your analogy is really interesting and well done.
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Hm.
Okay, using your analogy of the clay, I'm going to say that actually works. But it's not the same clay each time. Heck, it's not even the same clay or the same statue on a day to day, minute to minute...or even second to second basis.
Consider, if you will, the fact that the clay has skin from your hands, dirt from the surrounding areas, and likely water added to it as it has dried out a bit. Perhaps more clay eventually needed to be dropped in with the originating bagworth, perhaps some was taken away. Dust gets in, dust gets carried away...constant change.
Now, before you even get into remolding the statue, think about things on a molecular level - everything is constantly changing. What the very clay of the statue is changes all the time, so how can it be the same clay entirely when it is smashed down and made into a new statue?
As Osajima asked, what is the clay in the first place?
And now you're likely seeing why I'm Zen. There is no clay. 3nodding
I hope that helped. I have the feeling I've just taken clay and made muddy water of it. xd
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Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:17 pm
It helped, yes.
I'm glad you people made any sense of it.
thank you both heart
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Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 11:13 am
ღஐღ
There's an interesting idea in science that says that the Universe "blinks." Particles are there one moment, and then gone the next. They then "re-appear" according to the laws of probability and are continuously brought into being by things called "virtual particles."
According to thise theory, everything literally changes moment-to-moment. Places where you find more energy are the same places where you'll find higher rates of probability that the next time something "blinks" back into existence, it will be in a different location.
According to this theory, it's entirely possible for one thing to pop out of existence, and then return as something else. Apples can become panda, cement can turn to jell-o. Of course the probability required for these kind of drastic and complex changes are so extraordinarily low that one can be sure that they'll probably never happen. But there is always change, because there is always probability.
There is always a force that is driving how things will change, and that force is based on what changes came before. Sound familiar?
At least on the level of matter and energy (if not the events in life), karma has an established place in science - although it's not called "karma," nor is it thought of in quite the same way. It's all connected.
So, according to both this theory and to karma, we are reborn every moment. Our rebirth is determined by what comes before - where we are, what we are doing, our mindset, our intention - all of these factors determine our conscious rebirth. Probability determines the rebirth of our physical body.
In both cases, nothing is transfered from one place, one body to another. It is a continuous stream of matter and energy, of conciousness, that exists moment-to-moment. Looking at it this way, it's not that difficult to see why death is merely an illusion, or simply not the end. Like everything else, it is a change.
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Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:02 pm
[ Jizo Bosatsu ] ღஐღThere's an interesting idea in science that says that the Universe "blinks." Particles are there one moment, and then gone the next. They then "re-appear" according to the laws of probability and are continuously brought into being by things called "virtual particles."
According to thise theory, everything literally changes moment-to-moment. Places where you find more energy are the same places where you'll find higher rates of probability that the next time something "blinks" back into existence, it will be in a different location.
According to this theory, it's entirely possible for one thing to pop out of existence, and then return as something else. Apples can become panda, cement can turn to jell-o. Of course the probability required for these kind of drastic and complex changes are so extraordinarily low that one can be sure that they'll probably never happen. But there is always change, because there is always probability.
There is always a force that is driving how things will change, and that force is based on what changes came before. Sound familiar?
At least on the level of matter and energy (if not the events in life), karma has an established place in science - although it's not called "karma," nor is it thought of in quite the same way. It's all connected.
So, according to both this theory and to karma, we are reborn every moment. Our rebirth is determined by what comes before - where we are, what we are doing, our mindset, our intention - all of these factors determine our conscious rebirth. Probability determines the rebirth of our physical body.
In both cases, nothing is transfered from one place, one body to another. It is a continuous stream of matter and energy, of conciousness, that exists moment-to-moment. Looking at it this way, it's not that difficult to see why death is merely an illusion, or simply not the end. Like everything else, it is a change. That. Is. WICKED. Thanks again, Jizo! heart
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Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 10:24 am
I second this wickedness. whee
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Akanishi Makoto Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:03 pm
Jizo, you are absolutely correct, and have never been so wrong.
Mu.
heart
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Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:31 am
Jizo: yep, planck's constant ftw.
Cool. heart
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