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Big Sheets of Tinfoil will own Civilian Space!!! Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

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Solar Sails =
  ******** excellant - cheap, simple and they get you there pretty damn fast... considering.
  Erm... well.... they're gonna be great for InterStellar Travel, but why in ******** would you want to go anywhere In-System on one? lol, the Acceleration sucks a**.... plus, what do you do when out at a Jovian Orbit?
  Big sheets of Aluminised plastic? please... we've not even tested a working one before, anyway...
  Lol, I prefer something which doesn't allow me to be seen with the naked eye for millions of kilometers in every direction, thanks...
  Fusion Plasma = bigger acceleration = owns a** over small/medium distances.
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rugged

PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:32 am


Lol, ok, you probably think that's a crazy statement, right?
That is, that big sheets of Galvanized plastic will be one of the most important parts of any Civilian Spatial Colonisation effort at this distance from the Sun?

Well, you're not wrong for thinking it; they won't.

The Light they gather and reflect, however, is what makes them so usefull.

Sails, Collectors (for focusing the light onto a smaller area and using it to make electricity - boiling Steam), correction dishes for redireecting beams of EM that would otherwise go astray from their intended course (over hundreds of millions of Kilometers, a second of an arch can make a big ******** difference to the trajectory of a Microwave beam)....

They are light, cheap, will be easy to produce and won't be affected by small particles of Junk and stuff.
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 8:03 am


Erm... this isn't a very popular topic with you lot, is it?

Ah well...

I guess y'all wouldn't really be interested in how one would make the Sail Material either?

Well, I'll tell ya anyways;
Basically, you make the Plastic through a System that looks like this, and has a thin layer of Aluminium put ontop by evapourating some Al and exposing the surface to the resulting vapour.

Sorta like a crisp packet, but slightly stronger and more reflective (up to 99% of the light it hits it will be reflected (main source)

(quote for links to work)

rugged


ZigguratII

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:57 pm


To be honest I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here. Are you suggesting them as a source of energy?
PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 4:14 am


ZigguratII
To be honest I'm not sure what you're trying to get across here. Are you suggesting them as a source of energy?
Well, no, more a method of collecting it; using such a sheet as a method of focusing Sunlight onto a pipe and running water through it could give a lot of steam for turning a turbine - meaning a lot of electricity.

Since the density of Sunlight at this Orbit from the Sun is about 3 kilowatts per square meter, a reflector several kilometers in diameter could easily aquire all the energy needed for a reasonably sized City to live off of - 24 hours a day, cheaply and reliably.

Building such a large quantity of material wouldn't be too difficult either - it would only weigh a few hundred kg if made from Aluminium foil (much less if made from the Aluminised PET I was talking about earlier, but that would be more difficult and expensive to manufacture on The Moon and it's weight doesn't matter - quite unlike Solar Sails, of course).

Compare that to all the difficulties you would face through using, say, a Nuclear energy source, and you can see why I think it would be the best option for Civilian Power.

What do you think?

Am I wrong about this?

Would contained Fusion be even better?

rugged


ZigguratII

PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:59 pm


I see one problem with this, though I suppose this is where Physics-Astronomy comes in, but that's the orbiting of planets. You can reangle the sheets as long as you're on the same side as the sun... but if you go behind it you can't exactly aim the energy back through the sun. Though again, I suppose this is where the complications begin.
PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2006 4:40 am


ZigguratII
I see one problem with this, though I suppose this is where Physics-Astronomy comes in, but that's the orbiting of planets. You can reangle the sheets as long as you're on the same side as the sun... but if you go behind it you can't exactly aim the energy back through the sun. Though again, I suppose this is where the complications begin.
Lol, there's more than enough Sunlight on one side to provide all the Power you could possibly require.

A few collectors at Earth Orbit would be enough to power Earth and every Colony you could feasibly put above it.

rugged


ZigguratII

PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 4:46 pm


How would you plan on transporting this energy though?
PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 7:57 am


ZigguratII
How would you plan on transporting this energy though?
Well, you use the electricity you make to generate a ******** enourmous Microwave Beam and point it at a bunch of rectennas on the ground, which convert the Microwaves back into electricity when they get there.

Rectennas are simple, cheap, reliable and very effective at what they do - converting Microwaves back to electrical current at somewhere on the verge of 90% efficiency, though we will likely be able to make ones that get much higher than this.

Microwave generator Technology is very mature (we've had it for ages) and we can make frequencies perfectly suited to traversing the thick Atmosphere with ease using it.

rugged


Dryfolius

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:46 pm


Holy crap, i never knew about this Microwave Technology... at first i thought you all were talking about the Mircro-wave for food, but we can transmit Electricity through waves and then into a battery to be put to further use?
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:44 am


I really like your idea, if worked out properly it can be quite a good way to collect energy.
But the main problem with them would probably be that the reflector/microwave generator combo wont stay in one place/the place you want it to stay, because of gravitational pull. So you would need thrusters for that to keep it in place.

But as for the microwaves, isnt there a danger that when the microwaves miss the collector on the planet they might boil a nearby town, or am i thining about the wrong microwaves.

And i thouht they already had som quite good solarsails, or i might have watched tv a bit too much again.

laz4us


rugged

PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:29 am


Dryfolius
Holy crap, i never knew about this Microwave Technology... at first i thought you all were talking about the Mircro-wave for food, but we can transmit Electricity through waves and then into a battery to be put to further use?
Yeah - the same energy that goes into cooking your food can be turned directly into electricity with which to do... well... everything that you normally use electricity for.

See, Microwaves (funnily enough) are Electromagnetic waves - just like light.

Concequently, they travel at the speed of light to where you want them to go.

That means near instantanious transmission of Power from our Orbital Generators to the ground.
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:47 am


laz4us
I really like your idea, if worked out properly it can be quite a good way to collect energy.
But the main problem with them would probably be that the reflector/microwave generator combo wont stay in one place/the place you want it to stay, because of gravitational pull. So you would need thrusters for that to keep it in place.
Now, why would a silly thing like Gravity defeat the ambitions of such an imaginative species as ours? smile

lol, seriously though, if you keep it at an Orbit far away enough from the Atmosphere that there will be practically no particles around to slow it down, why should it's Orbit ever degrade enough for it to fall out of Orbit?

The only reason some things we put up there start to come down again is because we keep them within the Upper Atmosphere - which isn't very dense, but dense enough that air resistance very slowly soaks up their energy and makes them drop down again.

A High Earth Orbit solves this.

laz4us
But as for the microwaves, isnt there a danger that when the microwaves miss the collector on the planet they might boil a nearby town, or am i thining about the wrong microwaves.
Oh, well you've got a point - the amount of energy coming down in the beam will be very high, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use it as a power source, but that beam will be spread out enough that that energy is spread out to the point where it's barely the density of Sunlight on the Surface.

See, Sunlight has an energy density on the ground of about 1500 watts per meter squared.

If you get, say, 1 square kilometer of rectenna on the ground, you could get 1.5 billion watts collected from it - which is enough to power a decent sized town.

Now, we don't have to go this far - microwave densities on the ground could easily be made 2 or 3 times the density of Sunlight without there being any significant risk to anyone walking directly over them, and virtually none to everyone who doesn't go near the things, and get enough power to run a City off of from a collection of rectenna not much bigger than a square kilometer.

See, we can't just shoot it all down like a "Death Ray" because any little jitters on the generator up in Orbit would cause the beam to move all over the place on the ground - we'd never be able to keep it steady enough to reliably collect power from it.

When the rectenna collections are a kilometer wide, though, a few little imperfections in our targetting wouldn't be the end of the World for us, because virtually all of it would still land where we want it to.

laz4us
And i thouht they already had som quite good solarsails, or i might have watched tv a bit too much again.
lol, sorry, but we've not tested anything close to the size I was thinking of yet.

We've probably had a few Sattalites up to test the principle, but they'll only really get the most out of it if the sails are really big.

rugged


laz4us

PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:27 am


As i have said, i have watched tv way to much.

And ill bet when they have an installation running ten minutes after a space station crashes into the reflector...
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 4:08 am


laz4us
As i have said, i have watched tv way to much.

And ill bet when they have an installation running ten minutes after a space station crashes into the reflector...
lol, so what? smile
it's many kilometers in diameter and held in place by a sturdy skeleton, so most things that hit it will just go straight through, leaving a small hole which can easily be repaired later if you like - you'll be reflecting so much with the rest of the thing that it honestly won't matter.

rugged


yoyoman1_7

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 7:35 pm


Personally, I thought that the most efficient way to make/collect usable energy was nuclear fusion. Can you explain why we might do the solar sails (...or wtvr you plan on calling this) instead of Nuclear Fusion?
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The Physics and Mathematics Guild

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