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 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:06 pm
Here is a conversation I was in. I found It anorther forum i am in.
Quote: Here's just a little thing I think about a lot, and that is a very debated issue by the Psychological sects.
Do we have free will, or is it just social conditioning and gentics that makes us who we are? If you think about it, you are infulence negitively and postively by your peers. Many times you near driven to actions, and driven into becoming the norm. I've hid behand a mask for a while, because social conditioning taught me to do so. I've hid and hid because if I don't, I'll end up in more pain than it's worth.
But genetically, I'm programmed to go against the norm. I seem to mentally always want to stray away, and pysically, I never go against it.
But do I actually have a choice on my actions, or is it all social conditioning and genetics, and not free will.
So, what's your stand on this? Quote: Nope; in my opinion, free will does not exist. If you think about it, possibilities don't exist. You will always choose the option that you deem the best, for various reasons. For example, I'm a very studious girl. It's not always fun, but I study hard anyway. Certainly, this must mean that I have free will. Unfortunately, it doesn't. It just means that my desire to be a straight-A student is more important to me than my desire to go out and party or bum around my dorm or even sleep. It seems like a close call some of the time, but I always wind up doing my homework. If I didn't, however, it would only be because something more important to me came up and I opted to do that instead (e.g. to go to the hospital because I am deathly ill). What is important to you is created by your society, your upbringing, and what you would like for yourself. These things take away your free will, if indeed humans ever had any, and make it so that your choices will be ultimately predictable to you. (Oh, and if you're thinking, "Oh, yeah? Well, even though I think X is important, I can still do Y to prove you wrong", it just means that your desire to prove me wrong is more important to you than your desire to do X.)
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:08 pm
Free will does exist. If you think about it, without the free will to choose how we're going to act in certain situations, we'd all be mindless robots.
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:48 am
Free will certainly does exist. God created us to have free will. Your desire to do a certain thing is free will. Your lifestyle does influence you, but that doesn't mean every choice you make will be predictable. I've done some very unpredictable things, and so have a lot of my friends.
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Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 am
Free will cannot exist with dualistic presuppositions. That is, if the human body is two things (soul and physical body) there is no free will. This is for the question that asks how a non-physical action can influence a non-physical action.
Free will cannot exist if there is a perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient god, in other words, the judeo-christian god. This is for the reason that, regardless, it already knows what you will do an eternity before your inception. Furthermore, at this same time, it is existing at any action you shall ever make.
Free will cannot exist under certain monist pressupositions. That is, if the human is either completely physical (no soul) or rather simply made of one thing. This is for the reason that, in essence, we are robots.
Free will can only exist if we are completely mental beings. That is, free will can only exist if we are non-physical beings, and are composed of only our thoughts. It can only exist here becuase of the implications of free will.
Finally, the feeling that makes it seem like one has free will is not, in any way, proof of the fact that one has free will.
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Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:08 am
Yes, God knows everything that will happen, but that does not mean we don't have free will. We are still able to make the choice, we were not programmed to do everything mindlessly.
Anyway, I think there will always be dissagreement on this subject.
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Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:05 am
Especially with our dearly loved, yet terribly confusing Chaoticpuppet here. Wow, I haven;t seen you around for a while.
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Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:23 am
tentenflamingo Yes, God knows everything that will happen, but that does not mean we don't have free will. We are still able to make the choice, we were not programmed to do everything mindlessly. Anyway, I think there will always be dissagreement on this subject. Not having free will does not imply that we are mindlessly programmed; this is due to the fact that random action does not imply free choice. Further, notice above, it's not merely God knowing what will happen, as much as the philosophy that is required for any christian belief that does not allow for free will. That is, all christian beliefs require the presupposition that a person is two things, one part is physical, the other part is non-physical (this is the soul). The physical part is subject to the determined physical world. We know it is determined thanks to science, mostly, physics. Now, the issue that needs to be shown in order to allow for free will in such a Christian setting is how a non-physical action creates a physical action. What I mean to ask here is simply, how can the soul influence the body's movements, if the soul is a non-physical portion of the body? (Note: No philosopher to date has answered this question to satisfaction). To then incorporate God into the mix, it is not simply that God knows what I am to do, it is that, since he knows what I am to do I cannot surprise him, therefore I cannot have the choice to surprise God. If I cannot surprise God, how can I have free will? windswept_fury Especially with our dearly loved, yet terribly confusing Chaoticpuppet here. Wow, I haven;t seen you around for a while. Philosophy, confusing?! Always is; that's what makes it awesome. Yeah, I've been pretty busy with college life to do much more than lurk.
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:04 am
chaoticpuppet To then incorporate God into the mix, it is not simply that God knows what I am to do, it is that, since he knows what I am to do I cannot surprise him, therefore I cannot have the choice to surprise God. If I cannot surprise God, how can I have free will? There are things you cannot do even if you have the will to do so. Just because you have free will doesn't mean that you can do everything -- simply because there are some things that just cannot be done. Say you tried to pick up a ten-ton boulder. You can choose to pick it up, you try to pick it up -- but you don't and instead you break your back. You had free will and used it, but you didn't have the power or ability to pick up the rock. In the same way, you cannot "surpise" God. However, this does not mean that we don't have free will. Free will is making a choice. Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey God. Cain had the free will to kill Able. We all have choices to make, and we use free will to make them.
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Posted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:31 am
tentenflamingo There are things you cannot do even if you have the will to do so. Just because you have free will doesn't mean that you can do everything -- simply because there are some things that just cannot be done. Say you tried to pick up a ten-ton boulder. You can choose to pick it up, you try to pick it up -- but you don't and instead you break your back. You had free will and used it, but you didn't have the power or ability to pick up the rock. If I truly choose to lift the rock, then I can lift the rock regardless of it's weight, but only if I have free will. If I do not have free will, then I cannot lift the rock. (Logically valid, since the latter proposition is derived from the contrapositive of the former). Quote: In the same way, you cannot "surpise" God. However, this does not mean that we don't have free will. Free will is making a choice. Adam and Eve had the free will to disobey God. Cain had the free will to kill Able. If I have free will, then I can surprise God. If I cannot surprise God, I do not have free will. (Logically valid, since the latter proposition is dervied from the contrapositive of the former). Free will is not simply making a choice, it is also the accompanying free action. Without the free action, free will is useless becuase it cannot be put into action. Furthermore, statements like "Cain had the free will to kill Abel..." is hardly proof of free will. It is merely a statement, one that only hurts your position since you are not providing any proof what so ever for said statement. Quote: We all have choices to make, and we use free will to make them. Supposing this may be the case, how does a non-physical thing influence a physical thing? That is, how does the soul (which contains our free will) influence the bodies actions (which are subject to the determined physical world)?
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Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:32 am
Okay, besides the fact that I think we're going round in circles, I can't debate anymore because I'm going to be gone for two weeks. I did enjoy it tho, you come up with very good points.
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:38 pm
i think there is free will because when you meet an obstacle you must CHOOSE in what way you would like to act. yes God does know everything that is going to happen but only because he is perfect and knows our personalities and what we will do in any given situation. if there is no free will we are like windsweptfurry said "mindless robots" with no reason for our actions besides that we were programed to do a certain task.
hmm... did i just say that? XD
*post*
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:56 pm
Based on that exchange, we still have free will. Chicken Lips, did you feel it more important to you to post this topic than something else? No, it's just something you felt like doing. Hence, free will. Ta da!
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:53 pm
Hybrid Theories Based on that exchange, we still have free will. Chicken Lips, did you feel it more important to you to post this topic than something else? No, it's just something you felt like doing. Hence, free will. Ta da! It could be that chickenlips was fated to make this topic. Predeterminism. Ta da!
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:31 pm
chaoticpuppet Hybrid Theories Based on that exchange, we still have free will. Chicken Lips, did you feel it more important to you to post this topic than something else? No, it's just something you felt like doing. Hence, free will. Ta da! It could be that chickenlips was fated to make this topic. Predeterminism. Ta da! It could be that chickenlips felt that he must, under any circumstances, post this, and that nothing would stop him.
Regular determinism. Ta da!
[ Lame, yes. Do I care? Not really.]
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Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:39 pm
windswept_fury It could be that chickenlips felt that he must, under any circumstances, post this, and that nothing would stop him.
Regular determinism. Ta da!
[ Lame, yes. Do I care? Not really.] I think that's more free will-ish. Regular determinism would be more like: chickenlips posted this as a reaction to the environment that had surrounded him. Whether he felt anything is of no consequence.
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