I have been in love with this writer since I was about fifteen years old, and I found Dart in the thrift shop. Phedre's world pulled me in immediately because I realized, that was the kind of open society I would want to live in if given the choice. Of course, it has its cons, such as everyone being judgmental in general, but my own personal sexual preferences would be accepted as normal, and that's a big draw for me.
The things that Phedre manages to accomplish in Dart made me so proud. To see her go from the unwanted, imperfect child of a prostitute to (Spoiler!) savior of her realm like that was a hell of a journey I've always been glad I undertook with her.
Who were your favorite characters? There were so many, and they were so wonderful. Melisande Shahrizai has to be by far one of my favorite antagonists, and the long-standing game between her and Anafiel Delaunay was so deeply and intricately laid.
Oh, and Hyacinthe! What a wonderful character to introduce into her life at such a critical stage! Also, the sailors, Remy, Fortun and Ti-Phillipe, were dear to my heart, as well.
I have so many emotions and thoughts on this book and the series as a whole. I can't wait to see what you guys thought!
Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 8:44 pm
Well, seeing how entranced by the book I could get and how long I could read this without wanting to stop, I really thought I'd finish this earlier, but work and a new computer game got in the way this past week as I was close to finishing the book. sweatdrop (Spoilers ahead. Lots of them.)
I loved it. It had been a while since I'd read a good fantasy novel, and somehow I lean towards the ones where there is only a little magic like this. Once I stopped trying to figure out which time period the universe was supposed to mimic, I thought the world was really beautiful and there were some really nice touches. The whole new pantheon of angels was interesting and didn't make too much of a divide between regions according to which angel they preferred, and I was glad about that. Terre d'Ange still felt like a united land for the most part. And despite the fake French words and my tendency to switch accents mid-sentence when stumbling upon those words, I think the author did a good job giving her characters coherent names that fit each of their worlds.
I also loved the tsingani. Hyacinthe is such a colorful, interesting and complex character. I was a little sad when he decided to accept the fate of master of the straits. I hope Phèdre somehow finds a way to get him back, or at least visits him at some point. I don't want him to be out of the series. sad
I also loved the intrigue. At first I was worried that the whole book would be a series of sexual encounters, enumerations of distant nobles and discussions in which just a few sentences are actually relevant to the plot, and I kept grasping at straws trying - like Phèdre, in fact - to understand what was going on. But as the story unfolded and she started travelling and becoming truly involved in the events, I was completely fascinated. I liked reading about the clash of cultures and the things that various people do share, I loved the tiny bits of magic spread through the story and the many beautiful and unlikely encounters between Phèdre and those who showed her kindness.
And yes, Melisande is a pretty good antagonist. So smart, driven and slippery. I think I almost cried out myself when I read she'd got away. I wonder what she'll try next.
It looks like we're likely to read the sequel next month. That makes me happy. ^_^
Melisande plays a deeply laid game, and that is all it is to her, and I love that about her. And don't worry, without spoiling anything, Hyacinthe does reappear in the story.
Oh, and Joscelin! At first, that relationship had me confused, but the more they interacted, the more it ended up making sense.
Looking at the poll, you're right, and that makes me happy too because I love this series, its very well written and it draws you in further and further as events progress. The Dauphine, or I guess she'd be Queen now, I really like her character as the story progresses too. I even love Quintillius Rousse.
Carey makes all of her characters so that they could probably carry a whole story of their own if she had the care to write it. She's been a huge influence on me as a writer, even with my focus on writing sci-fi recently.
Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:38 am
I will fully admit that I struggled with this book at first, to the point where I actually put it down for about a week to read other books as it was such a slog to get through. The language and writing are exceptional, but the society seemed a bit cliche. Before I get any further, I have to point something out.
I have never, not once, come across a novel written by a male author where women are essentially sold for sex, female authors, however, abound. I am not saying this is degrading in this book, it's one of the better written ones infact, the entire structure is absolutly fascinating [where the hell the money comes from I don't know, as they all seem so segregated and prejudicial.] I just can't understand why so many strong women, who advocate themselves as independant, find the thought of being trained and sold for the purpose of pleasure appealing. It also seemed like the entirety of the society was based on sex. And that was it. No trading with other countries, no other output than simply sex. It just seems hypocritical, and in this book I simply couldnt escape it. The main female, whilst well written, seems to think that the only way to cement connections is to have sex with them. Every man she meets is another man to warm her bed, which is why I loved Hyacinthe and Delaunay so much.
Now that I have said that [and if I have offended with any of those statements, I apologise, but I think of myself as an anti feminist for many reasons.] I will go onto the things I loved.
Phedre was amazingly well written, and incredibly resillient. She was smart, resourceful, had weaknesses and strengths, and embodied the saying I loved most from the book 'That which yeilds is not always weak' [might have paraphrased there a bit.]
Joscelin. I loved his dedication, his willingness to adapt and his tolerance of things he could not understand. I just found him fascinating.
The names of all the characters, whilst confusing, where so exotic and wonderful. Childric is one I love the most, and his character was interesting, even if he did seem to be dropped a bit early.
I also loved the Skaldi, and their roots in Viking gods and mythology. I was actually rooting for Waldemar throughout the final part. I wanted him to succeed if only because he seemed so smart and wise, and seemed so wasted when he died in battle. I think he could have been the one to stop Melisande.
I also kinda expected that she would escape, and found her to be slightly weak. She is fascinating, to be sure, and is a very cunning woman, but she should never have made the mistake of allowing Phedre to live. And I am actually looking forward to seeing how Joscelin and Phedre continue on.
All in all, a good book, a sometimes confusing read, and a satisfying ending to lead into the next.
I will fully admit that I struggled with this book at first, to the point where I actually put it down for about a week to read other books as it was such a slog to get through. The language and writing are exceptional, but the society seemed a bit cliche. Before I get any further, I have to point something out.
I have never, not once, come across a novel written by a male author where women are essentially sold for sex, female authors, however, abound. I am not saying this is degrading in this book, it's one of the better written ones infact, the entire structure is absolutly fascinating [where the hell the money comes from I don't know, as they all seem so segregated and prejudicial.] I just can't understand why so many strong women, who advocate themselves as independant, find the thought of being trained and sold for the purpose of pleasure appealing. It also seemed like the entirety of the society was based on sex. And that was it. No trading with other countries, no other output than simply sex. It just seems hypocritical, and in this book I simply couldnt escape it. The main female, whilst well written, seems to think that the only way to cement connections is to have sex with them. Every man she meets is another man to warm her bed, which is why I loved Hyacinthe and Delaunay so much.
Now that I have said that [and if I have offended with any of those statements, I apologise, but I think of myself as an anti feminist for many reasons.] I will go onto the things I loved.
Phedre was amazingly well written, and incredibly resillient. She was smart, resourceful, had weaknesses and strengths, and embodied the saying I loved most from the book 'That which yeilds is not always weak' [might have paraphrased there a bit.]
Joscelin. I loved his dedication, his willingness to adapt and his tolerance of things he could not understand. I just found him fascinating.
The names of all the characters, whilst confusing, where so exotic and wonderful. Childric is one I love the most, and his character was interesting, even if he did seem to be dropped a bit early.
I also loved the Skaldi, and their roots in Viking gods and mythology. I was actually rooting for Waldemar throughout the final part. I wanted him to succeed if only because he seemed so smart and wise, and seemed so wasted when he died in battle. I think he could have been the one to stop Melisande.
I also kinda expected that she would escape, and found her to be slightly weak. She is fascinating, to be sure, and is a very cunning woman, but she should never have made the mistake of allowing Phedre to live. And I am actually looking forward to seeing how Joscelin and Phedre continue on.
All in all, a good book, a sometimes confusing read, and a satisfying ending to lead into the next.
Ahah, I must admit I also felt like so much revolved around sex, and at first it worried me. I just let myself be charmed by the various friends Phèdre met.
I tend to be very forgiving when it comes to fantasy novels, because they've always been my little guilty pleasure (no so guilty, in fact) in between more serious reads. So I hadn't really thought about the whole economy thing.
I figured the vision of the world was skewed because we saw everything from the eyes of a courtesan who hangs out mostly with nobles and artists. Surely there are people who make actual things and who do trade somewhere out there? Or some lucrative tourism revolving around all matters of beauty and targeted at foreigners? Each region also apparently has its own specialty, so surely some of them make things that neighbouring countries would want to buy, especially considering they keep saying everything the d'Angeline make or do is so beautiful... Plus, I guess while the lower classes are working just for food, the nobility would wind up with plenty of money (and potentially debts) to spend on leisure and flaunting riches. It is, after all, based very loosely on pre-revolution France, with the addition of a much more assumed libertinism and somehow legalized prostitution... and sugar-coated everything.
Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 4:53 pm
Poor Poor wonderful Joscelin, he give up everything he is for Phedre, and never asked for anything in return. His loyalty, cunning and general sweetness is a wonderful thing. She could of made him a one note "bodyguard" I am so happy she gave him more personality then that. I rather dislike the end where Phedre somewhat selfishly chooses herself over him after all he gave for her.
Delaunay is a genius, and I loved quiet Alcuin, I was disappointed in his death I really wanted to see how he would develop as the story progressed.
Melisande reminds me of a shadow, dark and always lurking, or some kind of small evil canker causing a festering from the inside that isn't noticed until to late. I also liked Phedre need for her, as I know all to well having a desire for someone not good for you.
I also love how Phedre grew in this story, and glad that it was written in a way that her growth made sense, by introducing a strong education for her early in the book, it made the later chapters much more realistic, for example how she knew so many languages, inducing using her night court learning for body language and getting what she needed.
The story itself is also a wonder, she is able to introduce three very different cultures and is still able to get the reader to respect all of them, even the skaldi, she takes us into their world long enough to understand them even if they are the invading enemy.
I'm not going to lie, because there is a lot of sex throughout the series, but that was never the part I really enjoyed. I enjoyed the interactions, the dialogue, the depth of the world and the intrigue.
Joscelin is such a great character as it progresses. He really was so rigid when the introduced him, I went from "man this guys a tight-a**" to "omg Joscelin pls win pls win!" by the end of the story.
If you guys don't mind, I'm just going to rename this thread so it covers the whole Phedre Trilogy. It makes more sense to me that way, especially if we vote in book three. That being said, tag spoilers for book two and I'm glad you're all enjoying the story for the most part!
Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 4:13 pm
Ok, this book had me from the get go! Major, major improvement on the first installment and by the end i was devouring it in an entire evening. I was waiting with baited breath for the end and i was not dissapointed. Phedre grew so much in this, and her realisation that she is dabbling in politics that are to big for her too handle and that she had basically played into Melisande's hands was perfectly handled.
The parts where she plied her trade where both humerous and interesting [I loved the brother and sister, and would really enjoy seeing more of them. I also like the fact that it is taking her a while to find out how to save Hyacinthe. Phedre is also less liked in this, which kinda annoyed me in the first one as it seemed everyone loved her. She seemed more real with people disliking her and speaking back at her. She also had far more of a backbone in this one. And her and Joscelin's relationship had the shake-up it needed, I was in tears when they were reunited, and the pirates where amazing, and the Yeshuites where interesting, and, and....Ugh, this book was just so goood!
I can't wait for the final book, if only to see what finally happens to Melisande. I want that b***h dead!
Ahahah, I completely agree on wanting Melisande to die. She has no redeeming quality. Sure, she's smart and a great villain, but really? She seems like she cares about nothing other than power.
I've finally finished the second book! It took forever to find a paper copy, so I got it only around the end of May. At least I bought the third book at the same time, so I can start reading it right away. smile I still love the series as much. It's nice indeed to see Phèdre face people who don't fall head over heels for her and give up all manner of logic. It's interesting too that some of that is because her status and the culture in La Serenissima means she can't use her wiles quite like she usually would. She's not just some unknown courtesan going around doing whatever she wants while people have no idea who she is. She has a reputation to uphold and a lot of people looking at her. It will be interesting to see how that turns out in the final book. I loved the pirates, they're really fun characters, and the conflict of faith for Joscelin was interesting, though heart-wrenching at times.
(spoilers for Kushiel's Chosen ahead)
So glad they can finally be together and admit that they're in love! heart
There were some times when I found the pace of the story a little slow, probably because of the contrast with the second half of the first book. At some point around the end, I think when she was in the temple of Asherat, she said she'd waited so much everywhere she went before, she could wait a little longer for the perfect timing, and I felt like that sentence encompassed a lot of the book. It was nice to see the dynamics between her and various political figures, and she couldn't have been given everything on a silver platter again, but sometimes it was just so much waiting with nothing for her to do but wait. The worst was the beginning, as she kept saying she couldn't find any useful information about anything. After that, at least there were new and interesting characters to meet.
Overall, I still loved the book and once she got back to La Serenissima, I couldn't put it down anymore. The build-up of the tension towards those final events worked very well.
Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:02 am
This reply will contain spoilers regarding Melisande in book three and the ending of the first trilogy. If you aren't done, please do not read my post.
She is too smart to let herself be caught and killed for her crimes. Melisande is playing a deep, deep game and she is not alone in it either. She is beautiful and smart and deadly and the full depth of her plans I don't think ever actually gets fully laid out. It's forever vexing to Phedre, and its actually part of why she is one of my favorite antagonists.
The thing with Melisande is that she knows how to manipulate, and how to gauge who can and who cannot be. She also has a talent for finding what might make an otherwise unflinching foe bend to her will, whatever it may be, and isn't afraid to exploit it. Her only weakness came long after her plans were laid and her deadly game commenced, if she'd never had a child, she would never have had that c***k in her armor and would never have needed to even think of asking Phedre for any kind of help whatsoever. She did not plan for the way having a child would change her.
In the end, even though she still lives, I think becoming a mother was truly her downfall. I think, in its own way, that it was her true and honest defeat. She never, never counted on the life of her child meaning more than the stakes of her game. In doing what she felt was the right thing for her child given the situation, she effectively doomed herself to an exposed weakness and became what she had never been: exploitable, for fear of his safety.
And I love Phedre to my dying breath for exploiting that weakness. By forcing Melisandre to make a promise she would otherwise never have made. A promise she is bound to, otherwise her child be handed to be raised by a family who hates her rather than Phedre, who in return promised not to turn him against her on purpose as they might in the palace. A promise Phedre fully intended to keep, though it displease her Queen greatly.
I binge read this. Like, the last half of this book was read in five hours whilst listening to Disturbed and Flogging Molly. I bow to this author. I still stand by what I said about the first book, but just. Ok, spoiler talk for third book now.
This book, to me, has now gone to the very top of my favourite fantasy epics. Phedre is amazing in this, especially her relationships with all those around her. She seems more mature, more confident and more refined..The ten years between the books really helped her grow up, and boy does it show. I love her for the fact she openly admits she doesn't want children, and that she and Joscelin have had rocky moments, that she still has to see patrons to satisfy her nature. The relationship between her and Ysandre aswell is stunning, and the fact that there are now little princessess! And Hyacinthe, sweet Hyacinthe, such a tragic character.
Now, for the build up to the ultimate mission, which has been built up over the books. Melisande really screwed up on this one, though she was very smart in the way she set it up. And the fact that it seems like it was just pure coincidence that this happened, until Phedre saw the pattern.The build-up to when she finds out what happened to Imri, and where he is, and how her entire life has lead up to this choice. Carry on with a mission that could not only kill her, but doom all she loves to darkness if she fails, or say no and leave a child to a hell that is unimaginable, where he will become fodder for a dark God.
I loved Imri, and will definetly vote for that trilogy when it comes up. His bravery, his fears, his character and the bond he creates with Phedre and Joscelin. The fact that he has small parts of his mother in him and yet seems to be a far better person than she could ever be. The entire part set in the Kenana is just perfection, the pace in this book was so much better than the other two, so where the new characters. And the tension place on Phedre and Joscelin's relationship is phenomenal, I was nearly crying in places, and was so impressed by Phedre's resilience. I still think Melisande was a bit flat as a character, especialy seeing as she was so naive when it came to her child. Of course she was going to love her child, how could someone so smart not factor that in? It makes her seem so stupid and naive. I could see this happening when Phedre spotted her cradling the baby in the throne room before she revealed her identity in book two. I was so glad that this book had Markhagir. My Gods, this man was just amazingly well written for a villain, and the death Priests where such a fascinating idea, and so well written. I could practically feel the power they held and wielded, and the mythos behind them was just so unique.
Then Hyacinthe's rescue, though the romance story between him and Drustans sister seemed more than a little shoehorned in. That is only a small criticism though. The rest of the book, and the inevitable adoption of Imri into Phedre and Joscelin's family was just amazing.
All in all, an amazing fantasy epic. Absolutly loved it.
Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:54 am
Finally done reading Kushiel's Avatar! It's not that I didn't like it. In fact, I really loved it. I've just been super busy, so I couldn't catch up with starting it late as well. In fact, it seems it took me exactly a month to read. XD Ok, on to the actual discussion... does it need spoilers?
To me, Kushiel's Avatar felt like it was supposed to be two books, in which the first would have been awfully daunting. The whole part in the zenana was wonderfully written, and I loved it, with all the characters, their initial reactions to Phèdre's presence and the way they slowly came to accept her and, at the same time, to nurture some solidarity. I think it's one of the strong aspects of the series, in fact, the way it represents so well how solidarity among people of different cultures and backgrounds is possible and how it's at the basis of a better world. Some descriptions of what happened in the Markhagir's bedchamber made me wince, but everything around it made the part absolutely worth it. As for the Markhagir himself, he was indeed a great villain. I'm usually not a fan of half-mad villains, but the fact that there was a reason behind it, an awful past that really triggered it and wasn't just used as an excuse, plus a whole group of priests encouraging this outlook on the world, made him feel more real than this type of villain usually does.
As usual, I also loved discovering the rest of the world and different cultures and how they were functioning countries, no less valuable or impressive than Terre d'Ange in the end.
Imriel is such a great character, so sweet and curious, learning from everyone and everything. I loved seeing the growth in the relationship between Phèdre and Joscelin, and part of that was through their relationship with Imriel. He's basically the child they would never have allowed themselves to have. I smiled every time they had those sweet moments together, gettign ever closer. I'm curious to find out what will happen to Imri in the next trilogy though. It seems he won't quite get to have the quiet, peaceful life I'd have wished for him. I don't like saying Imriel was Melisande's weakness. I get how it can be seen that way, but in the end, while Melisande made some huge mistakes and did show vulnerability because of love for her son, she really wasn't crushed. I'm still a little worried, and wouldn't be surprised to see her take a great part in the next trilogy. So far, at least, Elua and love win and have twarted her plans, but who knows what will happen next, and how that love for her son might fuel new ideas?
I'm not sure I agree with you guys on the pacing of the book. Until Phèdre learned the name of god, it was great. The journey back home, however, seemed a little long, sometimes just to tell us it was uneventful in one part or another... I can't remember which country it was were she literally explained that for once there was no goodbyes to make, no person to meet, and they just got a room and supplies, and that still took a while. There was a point when I started wondering if there was enough room in the book for Phèdre to reach Hyacinthe and free him from the curse. It did pick back up, though, so I don't mind it too much.
Finally, I loved the way a pattern was revealed in the end. Suddenly everything felt so grand and amazing about her journey, and looking back on it, it felt almost overwhelming. She really was one of her gods' many pawns. It would have been so bad if everything had been announced as a prophecy from the beginning, but the author didn't fall in that trap, and it made Phèdre's realization as she learned the name of god that much more amazing and relatable.
Overall, I loved the series. It was truly character-driven, with so many interesting characters who really mattered in Phèdre's life, not only for their help in the plot, but for their relationship with her and the way it made her grow as a person. The world was great to visit, and while there was little magic in most of the story, everything still felt mystical and amazing. Truly an impressive and moving series.
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