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 Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:21 pm
well, this is from the book "the Zahir" by Paulo Coelho, and this little bit goes back to the nomads and such and explaining why sex is such a taboo, though it's well on it's way not to be. I'm not saying this is historically correct or anthing, I just thought it was interesting view. Here's the clip!
When I was fifteen, I was desperate to find out about sex. But it was a sin, it was forbidden. I couldn't understand why it was a sin, could you? Can you tell me why all religions, all over the world, even the most primitive of religions and cultures, consider that sex is something that should be forbidden?
How did we get onto this subject? All right, why is sex something to be forbidden?
Because of food.
Food?
Thousands of years ago, tribes were constantly on the move; men could make love with as many women as they wanted and, of course, have children by them. However, the larger the tribe, the greater chance there was of it disappearing. Tribes fought among themselves for food, killing first the children and then the women, because they were the weakest. Only the strongest survived, but they were all men. And without women, men cannot continue to perpetuate the species.
Then someone seeing what was happening in a neighboring tribe, decided to avoid the same thing happening in his. He invented a stroy according to which the gods forbade men to make love indiscriminately with any of the women in a tribe. They could only make love with one or, at most, two. Some men were impotent, some women were sterile, some members of the tribe, for perfectly natural reasons, thus had no children at all, but no one was allowed to change partners.
They all believed the story because the person who told it to them was speaking in the name of the gods. He must have been different in some way: he perhaps had a deformity, an illness that caused convulsions, or some special gift, something, at any rate, that marked him out from the others, because that is how the first leaders emerged. In a few years, the tribe grew stronger, with just the right number of men needed to feed everyone, with enough women capable of reporducing and enough children to replace the hunters and reproducers. Do you know what gives a women most pleasure within marriage?
Sex?
No, making food. Watching her man eat. That is a woman's moment of glory, because she spends all day thinking about supper. And the reason must lie in that stroy hidden in the past--in hunger, the threat of extinction, and the path to survival.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm really really really really sorry if this is in the wrong place!!
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Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:10 pm
Hi Laurana! that was interesting..... I did not know what the most pleasurable thing for a woman was, or... I didn't know it was making food for their family/ husband.... I guess it works though... guys like food, and guys like to see their wifes happy, so if they eat, their wife is happy XD makes sense....
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Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:45 am
Wow..Gotta admit, that story's something new.
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 4:20 pm
I love Paulo Coelho. I don't know if you've ever read The Alchemist, but that book completly changed my life. Some of his ideas are a little out there, but there is always a sense of truth to them. He's an amazing writer smile
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Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:18 pm
Kukushka I love Paulo Coelho. I don't know if you've ever read The Alchemist, but that book completly changed my life. Some of his ideas are a little out there, but there is always a sense of truth to them. He's an amazing writer smile Oh I've read The Alchemist, amazing book. Have you read "11 Minutes" it's a BILLION times better!!!! read it if you haven't!
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:56 am
It's an interesting ideal, but I don't think I buy into it now.
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Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:38 pm
Lauranthalis Kukushka I love Paulo Coelho. I don't know if you've ever read The Alchemist, but that book completly changed my life. Some of his ideas are a little out there, but there is always a sense of truth to them. He's an amazing writer smile Oh I've read The Alchemist, amazing book. Have you read "11 Minutes" it's a BILLION times better!!!! read it if you haven't! No, I've only read that and The Valkyries, unfortunatly. I've planned to read more, but University kinda kills any reading lists a person might have. lunashock It's an interesting ideal, but I don't think I buy into it now. Like I said, his books are full of theories that kinda make sense despite being really out there. Sometimes it's a complete miss and you can just pass on to the next theory that may change your entire life and how you think of the world. Sometimes, theories seem too far out there until you've read the whole book and see how it fits in to everything else. Either way, that man is a genius.
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Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:46 pm
Kukushka Lauranthalis Kukushka I love Paulo Coelho. I don't know if you've ever read The Alchemist, but that book completly changed my life. Some of his ideas are a little out there, but there is always a sense of truth to them. He's an amazing writer smile Oh I've read The Alchemist, amazing book. Have you read "11 Minutes" it's a BILLION times better!!!! read it if you haven't! No, I've only read that and The Valkyries, unfortunatly. I've planned to read more, but University kinda kills any reading lists a person might have. lunashock It's an interesting ideal, but I don't think I buy into it now. Like I said, his books are full of theories that kinda make sense despite being really out there. Sometimes it's a complete miss and you can just pass on to the next theory that may change your entire life and how you think of the world. Sometimes, theories seem too far out there until you've read the whole book and see how it fits in to everything else. Either way, that man is a genius. I completely agree. If I were to meet one writer who is alive today, it would be him. There are so many questions I want to ask him 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:51 am
I'm not so sure about that hypothesis. Many religions and cultures embrace sex as something sacred. Ancient Judaism, Tantric Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, and countless pagan religions all use sex to make a bridge between the mortal world and the divine world.
And frankly, the whole thing about reproductive control is kind of bull. In hunter-gatherer societies, and in agrarian societies, children tend not to live long. So people in those societies procreate quite a bit so that of the many children they have, a few will live to adulthood. Not only that, but consider how they make their living. Their livelyhood requires a lot of labor, enough so that an extended family becomes feasible. It was with the advent of the industrial revolution and urbanization that children became less of a labor source and more of a liability, enough so that people in the cities only had two or three kids.
I think the reason that sex is taboo in the modern Western religions comes from one, or both, of two reasons:
a.) Politics: In order to demonize competing religions, or perhaps to prevent intermarriage with non-Jews/Christians/Muslims, their practices were written as unholy in the eyes of God.
b.) And this is the more likely one: One of the basic principles of the Western religions is perserverance. This is best described by the statement, "Whatever is hard to do is right to do." Rejection of premarital sex, gambling, theft, etc. are seen as good because they demonstrate the ability to overpower your primal urges.
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:27 pm
Vermatitis I'm not so sure about that hypothesis. Many religions and cultures embrace sex as something sacred. Ancient Judaism, Tantric Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, and countless pagan religions all use sex to make a bridge between the mortal world and the divine world. And frankly, the whole thing about reproductive control is kind of bull. In hunter-gatherer societies, and in agrarian societies, children tend not to live long. So people in those societies procreate quite a bit so that of the many children they have, a few will live to adulthood. Not only that, but consider how they make their living. Their livelyhood requires a lot of labor, enough so that an extended family becomes feasible. It was with the advent of the industrial revolution and urbanization that children became less of a labor source and more of a liability, enough so that people in the cities only had two or three kids. I think the reason that sex is taboo in the modern Western religions comes from one, or both, of two reasons: a.) Politics: In order to demonize competing religions, or perhaps to prevent intermarriage with non-Jews/Christians/Muslims, their practices were written as unholy in the eyes of God. b.) And this is the more likely one: One of the basic principles of the Western religions is perserverance. This is best described by the statement, "Whatever is hard to do is right to do." Rejection of premarital sex, gambling, theft, etc. are seen as good because they demonstrate the ability to overpower your primal urges. I understand where you're coming from. But like I stated, it's not fact, just a suggestion coming from a more scientific view, which is wierd I guess because Paulo Coelho books are a lot more spiritual then they are scientific. But yeah, I'm Buddist and I believe sex is sacred but just because it's viewed as sacred doesn't mean it couldn't have been controlled in the first place because of population and food problems. Many pagan religions believe sex is sacred but not controlled to one partner. . . or at least they used to sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:46 pm
Quote: Paulo Coelho books are a lot more spiritual then they are scientific. While I do try to be open to new ideas and theories and I'm not denying this guy may be smart, that statement alone makes me not interested in reading them. I'm a more scientific, logical thinker, not really so much interested in spirituality for the most part. Not everyone is going to view the way you do on these theories nor have their lives changed by something. Just a thought. wink
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Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:53 pm
I guess I'm just confused is this an actual theory or a fairy tale or a myth?
I mean there are aztec myths about women's "other mouthes" and they actually have teeth and the men do nice dances for them and the teeth drop out and the women allow them to mate with them...etc.
This sounds somewhat like that. Like some ancient culture mythology.
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Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:12 pm
I don't think it's meant to be scientific. As Verma quite nicely said, it makes no scientific sense.
I think it's a bit of tongue in cheekness. But I haven't read the whole book, so It's hard to say.
Luna, you'd hate it then. It's extremely spiritual (more specifically, Christian (The Alchemist had a dash of Islam). I loved it because I was always interested in religions as a minor hobby, but The Alchemist really taught me to look behind the quibbling little rules and customs and such and look at the spirituality behind religions and see that all religions seek to achieve the same goals. It's what really set me down my Comparative Religions path (now my minor in University).
But if the more abstract/metaphysical stuff isn't your cup of tea, there's really very little left to enjoy in the books.
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Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:04 pm
lunashock Quote: Paulo Coelho books are a lot more spiritual then they are scientific. While I do try to be open to new ideas and theories and I'm not denying this guy may be smart, that statement alone makes me not interested in reading them. I'm a more scientific, logical thinker, not really so much interested in spirituality for the most part. Not everyone is going to view the way you do on these theories nor have their lives changed by something. Just a thought. wink I never said everyone is going to view theories the way I do or have their lives changed by his books!! gonk don't put words in mouth! (expression) Just generally speaking, the majority of people find his books spiritually up-lifting. And if you don't want to read his books because they're not 'scientific', whop-ti-do for you! I'm not trying to advertise/sell anything! It's just a suggestion because I find his books entertaining to say the least. And spiritual books can be logical. So yeah... oh and, I know I said "scientific" before, it's not really what I meant to say... it was just the best word I could think of >.< seriously.
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Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:45 pm
According to what I know of Judeochristian doctrine, sex is only supposed to be used for the purposes of procreation(entirely contradicting what Paul Coelho said). This is why the church has such a strong position against condoms, birth control, homosexual sex, abortion, masturbation, bestiality, and to a lesser extent, incest (Because children born as the result of incest are likely to be unhealthy and corrupt the gene pool if they grow to reproductive maturity).
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