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Which formula would you prefer for blocking?
d20 + Base Attack Bonus (of the attack turn used to block) + Str Mod + 2 per 10 in Skill
12%
 12%  [ 1 ]
d20 + Base Save Bonus + Str Mod + 2 per 10 in Weapon Skill
37%
 37%  [ 3 ]
d20 + Base Save Bonus + Dex Mod
25%
 25%  [ 2 ]
d20 + Weapon or Melee Skill
25%
 25%  [ 2 ]
d20 + Base Save Bonus + Str Mod + 2 per 5 in Weapon Skill
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 8


Hoshigaki Hiru
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:47 pm


I know these will have the effect of partially modifying the game system and that this is usually crew only; but I think it would be good that everyone have a chance to give their thoughts on this, even if they might not have the power to vote on it.

EDIT: Looking back, I see the crew has used the user vote as a manner of deciding upon system updates in the past, I'll apply the same system here given the crew's lack of activity at the moment and the urgency of updating these parts of the system.

Blocking

Basically, this makes blocking more simple and a more relevant and balanced part of the combat system. The formula is changed so that the block formula is more on par with the attack formula than it is now.

Covering and Rescuing

For rescuing and covering, this modification is VERY needed since, as the system stands now, one guy with high dodge rating in a group of twenty people could single handedly prevent all of them from being hit by 30 attackers since the action of pushing a friendly target out of the way does not use up attack turns.

Since taking damage and moving someone out of the way now requires that you are actually in a position to provide cover for someone now makes more sense and balances out this action. I made covering and jumping to the rescue separate techniques since, even though the basic principle is similar, one should be much more difficult to execute than the other and should have less chances of succeeding.

Grappling

This is also a problem I've been meaning to tackle for a while now since, as the system stands right now, I don't see why a taijutsu user would do anything but grapple all the time since it is exactly the same formula as any attack and causes just as much damage. I understands there could be chokeholds and submission techniques but, in my mind, these should be individual techniques themselves.

I also made two different ways of breaking free of a grapple, either by slipping away (escape artist) or powering through (athletics). For the moment we have a break grapple technique that would maintain its relevance if grapple is now made like this.

Anyone would have a better image for the grapple by the way?

I came up with these pretty quickly so don't hesitate to mention if there's anything you'd add, remove or modify in this proposal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uke (Blocking)
User Image
Blocking is the most basic defensive maneuver a shinobi can learn. Aimed at preventing an attack from reaching its target, a block is basically a blow against a blow, applying the basic principle that two equal forces going in opposite directions will offset each other. Unless very specific skills have been learned, hands will not prove very helpful in blocking weapon attacks.
Attack Turns: 1 (Reaction)
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Requirements: Learn in the academy.
Training: 1 stage
Stage I: Weapon or Taijutsu DC 10, Deflect attacks with your own to prevent them from hitting you.
Special:
*Roll 1d20 + [Base Attack Bonus / 2] + Strength Modifier + 2 per 10 in Weapon Skill. If block check beats the attack roll, the attack was succesfully blocked and causes no damage. If failed, blocker takes full attack damage.
*Bare hands can only be used to deflect taijutsu attacks.

Kabaiitate (Cover)
User Image
The action of covering someone is made to protect more vulnerable targets in order to prevent that harm be done to them. Any person wishing to attack the protected target will have to “go through” the person covering them, something that can be quite a challenge depending on who they have to deal with.
Attack Turns: 1 per action (reaction)
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Requirements: Learn in the academy.
Training: 1 stage
Stage I: Weapon or Taijutsu DC 10, Prevent attackers from damaging a target placed behind you.
Special:
*The action of moving to cover someone or moving into cover requires one attack turn to perform.
*Protector can use cover actions while providing cover.
*As a cover action, user can block or defend attacks aimed at the person behind them as though they were aimed at them.
*As a cover action, if protector’s dodge or reflex beats incoming attack score, they can take damage for the protected person.
*As a cover action, if protector’s dodge or reflex beats incoming attack by 10, they can move the protected person out of the way and dodge the attack themselves.
*Cover is broken as soon as an offensive maneuver that requires that the protector move from his spot is initiated (melee attacks, any jutsu requiring movement).
*Only 1 person may be covered at a time, although many people may provde cover for a single individual.

Kanshou (Intervention)
User Image
If an attack is launched against a target that a shinobi wishes to protect, they can try to wedge themselves between the attacker and its target either to attempt to block the attack, take damage for them or to push them clear out of its way.
Attack Turns: 1 per action (reaction)
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Requirements: Learn in the academy.
Training: 1 stage
Stage I: Dexterity DC 10, Wait for the signal and push a training dummy out of the way of a swinging log before it takes any damage.
Special:
*If protector’s dodge or reflex beats incoming attack by 10, they can take damage for the protected person.
*If protector’s dodge or reflex beats incoming attack by 15, they can attempt to block or defend from the attack.
*If protector’s dodge or reflex beats incoming attack by 20, they can move the protected person out of the way and dodge the attack themselves.
*After an intervention attempt, successful or not, target will be put under the user’s cover until it is broken.

Kumiuchi (Grappling)
User Image
Grabbing an opponent in combat is a basic taijutsu technique aimed at holding an opponent in place rather than causing to damage to them directly. Getting close to an opponent, the person intending to restrain the other must find a way to get his hands on them and lock them in place to prevent any movement. This allows the victim to be used as a human shield or facilitates any partner's attempts at attacking them. In order for the victim to break free, they must either find a way to wiggle free from the user's hold or overpower them to break it.
Attack Turns: 1
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Escape Artist DC: d20 + Strength Modifier + 2 per 10 in Taijutsu
Requirements: Learn in the academy.
Training: 1 stage
Stage I: Taijutsu DC 10, Hold a struggling target in place while they are greased up, it can be quite a challenge!
Special:
*Grapple is initiated like any other melee attack but does not cause damage.
*Immediately following a succesful grapple attack and at the beginning of any round that the hold is maintained, user and defender must roll a Grapple check of d20 + Strength Modifier + 2 per 10 in Taijutsu to see if the grapple is maintained or broken (higher score wins).
*While grappled, victim rolls a free grapple check (d20 + Strength Modifier + 2 per 10 in Taijutsu) per round against the grappler's grapple check to attempt to break free from the hold, and may use their attack turns to attempt Escape Artist checks against the Grapple check to break free.
*While grappling or grappled, victim and grappler lose the benefit of their Dexterity to their dodge rating and may not attack other people, block, or use techniques that require more than 1 attack turn (dice roll).
*While grappling, grappler can use attack turns to either attempt taijutsu or small weapon attacks against the grappled target, attempt to disarm them, or attempt to wrestle them to the ground, negating their wisdom modifier to their dodge rating until they break free or until the grappler attempts another grapple action.
*While grappled, defender may attempt taijutsu attacks against the grappler but suffers a [4 + 1 per 10 in grappler's taijutsu skill] penalty to attack score.
*Any failed attack against the grappler or the grappled target has a 50% chance to hit the other party to the grapple.

Imashimeru (Binding)
User Image
Using rope to immobilize and restrain an opponent is a basic maneuver often used by shinobi for various purposes.
Attack Turns: 1
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Escape Artist DC: d20 + Sleight of Hand + Str Mod
Requirements: Learn in the academy.
Training: 1 stage
Stage I: Sleight of Hand DC 10, Tie up one of your buddies as tightly as possible and see how long it takes for them to break free (often trained in conjunction with the Rope Escape Technique).
Special:
*Can only be used against an immobilized or grappled opponents.
*User must use this technique for (5 - 1 per 15 in Sleight of Hand) continuous attack turns to succesfully rope up an opponent.

Youdou (Feint)
User Image
A combat application of masking your true intention, a shinobi can perform a feint in combat intended to mislead an opponent. The user fakes an attack in one direction to force a reaction from the opponent by telegraphing false information through body language and then uses the confusion to strike from another direction. If done successfully, this technique can leave an opponent wide open for an attack, greatly reducing chances of dodging. One of the weaknesses of this technique comes form its dependance on the opponent's ability to read the user's movements, making it less effective against targets that have different body types or limited intelligence.
Attack Turns: 1
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Sense Motive DC: d20 + Innuendo + Charisma Modifier
Requirements: Learn in the academy
Training: 1 stage
Stage I: Taijutsu DC 10, Spar with an opponent and bait him to move in the wrong direction in an attempt to dodge a false attack.
Special:
*Roll an Innuendo check (1d20 + Innuendo + Charisma Modifier) against an opponent's Sense Motive check (1d20 + Sense Motive + Wisdom Modifier). If Innuendo check beats enemie's sense motive check, user's next melee attack that only requires one attack turn is considered a sneak attack and gains all bonuses accordingly.
*-4 penalty to Innuendo check against non humanoid creatures. -8 penalty against creatures of animal intelligence. Impossible against creatures devoid of intelligence.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:06 pm


grapple pic, maybe something like

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120210084331/naruto/images/e/e5/Minato_vs_Tobi.png


this?

I like how you've taken off the damage for the grapple. I've just never gotten why the person being grappled has to take damage for just being stopped/blocked. For taking/providing cover, I would suggest an incremental/additional + for the head count that's protecting said person?

Cleric Saphire
Crew

Blessed Cleric

18,925 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Tycoon 200
  • Battle: Cleric 100

WeaselFanBoy

Liberal Genius

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:45 pm


Cleric Saphire
I like how you've taken off the damage for the grapple. I've just never gotten why the person being grappled has to take damage for just being stopped/blocked. For taking/providing cover, I would suggest an incremental/additional + for the head count that's protecting said person?

The reason for Grappling to do damage was the fact using it in 3.5 and 4.0 was to immobilize a target. The grapplers lost their Dex bonus to AC (in this guild it's called Dodge), threatened no squares (and therefore couldn't make attacks of opportunity), and couldn't move. It also limited the types of actions possible during a grapple and instated a penalty to trying to attack while grappling. There are better mechanics to do than Grappling though.

In here it doesn't seem to be as true though. Instate penalties rather then rewriting a mechanic. :/ It's certainly easier.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:16 am


WeaselFanBoy
Cleric Saphire
I like how you've taken off the damage for the grapple. I've just never gotten why the person being grappled has to take damage for just being stopped/blocked. For taking/providing cover, I would suggest an incremental/additional + for the head count that's protecting said person?

The reason for Grappling to do damage was the fact using it in 3.5 and 4.0 was to immobilize a target. The grapplers lost their Dex bonus to AC (in this guild it's called Dodge), threatened no squares (and therefore couldn't make attacks of opportunity), and couldn't move. It also limited the types of actions possible during a grapple and instated a penalty to trying to attack while grappling. There are better mechanics to do than Grappling though.

In here it doesn't seem to be as true though. Instate penalties rather then rewriting a mechanic. :/ It's certainly easier.

I think because we allow people who know nothing about d20 into the guild, we want to keep it as simple as possible, but still work and be fair.

I am kinda okay with these changes... as Cleric said, more then one person should give bonuses...

Qyp
Crew

Manly Lunatic


Qyp
Crew

Manly Lunatic

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:59 am


Requirements... uh... there should be some...

Like blocking, should at least have like, 5 weapon skill.

The others, should have 5 in something, if they Academy...

And training 5/5 that skill requirement...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:53 am


Hoshigaki Hiru

Blocking
User Image
Blocking is the most basic defensive maneuver a shinobi can learn. Aimed at preventing an attack from reaching its target, a block is basically a blow against a blow, applying the basic principle that two equal forces going in opposite directions will offset each other. Unless very specific skills have been learned, hands will not prove very helpful in blocking weapon attacks.
Attack Turns: 1
Cp Cost: n/a
Damage: n/a
Requirements: n/a
Training: Academy
Special: Roll 1d20 + Base Save Bonus + Strength Modifier + 2 per 10 in Weapon Skill. If block check beats the attack roll, the attack was succesfully blocked and causes no damage.
I have to say I like the idea's a lot and they make a lot of sense. I mean rescuing someone is going to be difficult or at the very least taking damage which would actually make people go into actual formations so they can use the cover thing which i like ^.^

Now on to the main topic at hand. Blocking. I like how you have it set up but the way it is not this means that unless you're fighting someone a weaker than you the first few attacks are almost guaranteed since attack lvls up every level while base once every 2 making a gap fairly quickly. a good way to counter act that would be to make it :

1d20 + Base Save Bonus + Strength mod + 2 per 5 in Weapon Skill (or 4 per 10)

My reason being because for every 10 in a Weapon Skill they're going to get +2 to attack anyways. so say you have two people, same stats, same skills, same level. (lets say they're lvl 20 with a level build. (kinda like Fenrir's - the derpy intel and horrid charisma, no offence wing))

Attacking: d20 [12] + Base Attack Bonus [20] + Strength Mod [10] + Katana skill (i'm just going to use Fenrir's which is 40 lol) [8] + Weapon bonus (master weapon) [2] = 52

Blocking: d20 [14] + Base Save Bonus [10] + Strength Mod [10] + Katana skill [8] + Weapon bonus [4] = 46

Even with a higher roll he still can't block. (this attack OR the one using the 15 B.A.B instead of 20)

4 per 10 version below.

Blocking: d20 [14] + Base Save Bonus [10] + Strength Mod [10] + Katana skill [16] + Weapon bonus [4] = 54

Now if there was no bonus to attack or blocking they'd be equal even though the defender rolled higher, and the attacker would still win since ties go to attacker. But the 4 per 10 or 2 per 5 would make things a little more fair in terms of actually being able to block attacks.

Side Notes:
^ I like how that pop's lol ))

I think Senbon's should be able to be used to block but have it be half str mod and half dex lol idk thats just something i'd like to see lol i say half dex because it'll take some finessing to move the attacking weapon out of the way and possibly change the angle so you're safe, str would be needed to make sure they dont just knock the thing out of your hand lol

Edit: at lvl 40 with the same conversion as the 4 per 10, (changed str mod to 30 and added 30 more skill points to katana) there would be a 2 point gap still in favor of the attacker, the rolls would be 98 vs 96 after everything. so as long as you keep your str and weapon training up you'll be able to defend yourself decently well. Also it's unlikely that you'll run into someone with all the same stats like that though lol the 2 per 5 would probably be the best choice since you'd be getting an extra 2 for defense while attackers would have to wait the full 10 to get their 2 and by then blocking will have another 2 lol

plus if you make the requirement for blocking 5 Weapon skill that would give them a +2 to their rolls for defending themselves (or possibly the merchant though i don't understand who'd want him dead ....>.> lol)

(sorry if there's spelling errors. v.v im tired lol )

Dai the fang

Dangerous Hunter


Qyp
Crew

Manly Lunatic

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:07 am


Actually, blocking should be Reflex + Strength Mod, not Base Save itself.

Or it should be... Reflex + Fort? I dunno, just Base Save + Strength Mod makes no sense... the modified version are there for a reason...

Fortitude and Reflex is what is needed to counter, since you need to be fast, but have good endurance.

So 1d20 + Reflex + Fort + 2 in 10 Weapon Skill.

That should even the odds...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:40 pm


Qyp
Actually, blocking should be Reflex + Strength Mod, not Base Save itself.

Or it should be... Reflex + Fort? I dunno, just Base Save + Strength Mod makes no sense... the modified version are there for a reason...

Fortitude and Reflex is what is needed to counter, since you need to be fast, but have good endurance.

So 1d20 + Reflex + Fort + 2 in 10 Weapon Skill.

That should even the odds...
I actually like that. It doesn't penalize people how aren't strength focused. but if you do reflex and fort save that equals to base attack bonus with just the base saves of both if they're the same level. (unless the guy is really lacking in his dex and con mod's he could easily block the attack. since it'd be 2 mods vs 1 in the end.

Dai the fang

Dangerous Hunter


Cleric Saphire
Crew

Blessed Cleric

18,925 Points
  • Invisibility 100
  • Tycoon 200
  • Battle: Cleric 100
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:03 pm


Dai the fang


You know, come to think of it, I remember that in the first mission in canon, protecting our dear bridge builder, there was a fight with Team 7 and Zabuza. Kakashi took first point and the other three genin formed the Manji Formation? (edit: yeah, Manji Formation. Apparently there's also something called 'Formation B' that they use against Tobi once, too.) Maybe we could incorporate that into blocking and protecting as well?

Thanks for bringing all that up, Dai, it was a valid and strong argument, plus it helped me jar my memory as well. If you're going to include Senbon in the 'Special' section though, then I think you should include all other 'small + somewhat hard to utilize' weapons as well. Just taken from our weapons list, maybe add the...

Quote:
Aikuchi
The Aikuchi is a small dagger 1 inch smaller than a tanto that can be hidden in easily in any type of clothing. It's a favored weapon by Kunoichis.
Damage: 2 - 5 + str. mod.
Range: Melee.
Special: +4 to Sleight of Hand check to hide inside all type of clothing for assassination purposes.
Dual Wield: Yes. -4 to attack roll and cancel Sleight of Hand bonus.

...gotta get Yuki one of those...

Quote:
Butterfly knife
The butterfly knife is a weapon used mostly for stealth purposes as well as showing off. The knife's ability to close and open hiding the knife inside the handle make this 3-part weapon a great choice when fighting in close quarters. You can also perform butterfly knife tricks to impress crowds!
Damage: 1 - 5 + str. mod.
Range: Melee.
Special: +4 to Sleight of Hand checks to hide on person. Causes a Bleeding Wound upon a critical hit.
Dual Wield: Yes. -4 to attack roll.

maybe...

Quote:
Tessen {Small war fan}
The tessen is used normally as a signal device more than a weapon and is often carried by kunoichis, the tessen can be made of wood and paper as well as iron and paper. Normally the tessen is combined with basic taijutsu and used as a parrying tool or as an implement to direct strength in a more concentrated form.
Damage: 2 - 5 + str. mod.
Range: Melee.
Special: Can be used as signal device to make innuendos along ninjas. +4 to blocking checks. +4 to Seduction or Sleight of Hand for female characters when concealing. You can also Perform to crowds with tessen tricks!
Dual Wield: Yes, -4 to attack roll.

Maaaaayyyyybe.....? (Pleasesayno)

Quote:
Kozuka
The kozuka is a really small throwing knife (~7 inches) that can be used to deal heavy damage if used correctly or along a sneak attack. They were usually mounted on the sheath of larger swords that the shinobi carried. In addition the kozuka can be used for many things including preparing meals. Basically they are your shinobi's utility knife.
Damage: 1 - 3 + dex. mod.
Range: 50 ft.
Special: +2 - 6 damage is used in a Sneak Attack. Causes a Bleeding Wound upon a critical hit.


Quote:
Shuriken
The shuriken is a traditional Japanese concealed weapon that was used for throwing and sometimes stabbing. They are small, sharpened, hand-held blades made from a variety of everyday items, such as needles, nails, and knives, as well as coins, washers and other flat plates of metal. They were not designed to kill but rather to distract, harass, scare and deliver poison. This is the weapon that gave ninjas the reputation for being able to attack with "a wave of their hand". They were actually throwing shuriken, but as the shuriken cut through the skin and disappeared into the distance it was as if a cut had appeared by magic.
Damage: 2 - 4 + dex. mod.
Range: 50 ft.

Whoever the hell blocks with a Shuiken..? But you get my point...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:11 pm


Cleric Saphire
Dai the fang

lol okay okay. lol I actually like the Kozuka idea though. I mean they are weapons that can be used like Kunai, both melee and ranged. but since they were range dominant i thought that the dex should still be in it some where but then again the items you brought up would require a more dexterous approach than just hack and slash with strength. ^.^ Though shuriken are just ranged from what i can tell. Unless its the demon windmill shuriken. (that thing looks scary lol plus it could be a range and a melee too, as zabuza demonstrated against kakashi)

Dai the fang

Dangerous Hunter


Hoshigaki Hiru
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:37 pm


Actually, there were two reasons why I used the Base Save Bonus to oppose the Base Attack Bonus. The first one was because it is a defensive maneuver, hence the theory it would require a save rather than an attack. But mostly, it was the fact that with this static number that would not vary from one block to the next yes it would indeed make it harder to block the first few attacks but easier to block the later ones, since the base save bonus would not go down like the base attack bonus does from attack to attack.

In my mind, it could be one of two things.

1. Attack vs Attack. Same rules, same formulas, same gradual reduction in BAB.
2. The suggestion as posted up there.

Quite honestly I'd be fine with both, since I believe they both have their merits and weaknesses. I seemto understand people would prefer the first option so I could modify to fit that one.

As for what weapons can be used to block or not, we don't have "weapon categories" like I understand they have in standard d20, thus if certain weapons can't be use for blocking, it should be mentionned in their description. That being said, I'm pretty sure I remember Haku fighting melee and blocking with senbons. I agree the technique may be different but the principle remains the same.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:03 am


Well, Reflex is the defense against techniques, so that should stand with blocking.

Qyp
Crew

Manly Lunatic


Dai the fang

Dangerous Hunter

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:41 am


Hoshigaki Hiru

As for what weapons can be used to block or not, we don't have "weapon categories" like I understand they have in standard d20, thus if certain weapons can't be use for blocking, it should be mentionned in their description. That being said, I'm pretty sure I remember Haku fighting melee and blocking with senbons. I agree the technique may be different but the principle remains the same.
YES! Thank you! lol as for the blocking subject I said my part so i'm up for what for whatever the most agreed upon thing is ^.^
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:16 pm


Well Reflex is actually your skill at moving out of the way of things, whereas blocking is actually getting in its way.

If you substitute the values around to get from the formula from reflex to get to one for blocking, you get the formula I initially suggested:

You take the basic reflex formula (d20 + BSB + Dex Mod), replace "dexterity" to move around by "strength" to strike swiftly and add the user's skill at wielding his weapon (weapon skill). The formula you get is d20 + BSB + Str Mod + 2 per 10 in Weapon Skill...

I think I'll make a poll to see which one people prefer.

As for requirements, pretty much all academy jutsus have as their only requirement "learn in the academy", since these are battle 101 I think they should share the same very basic requirements...

Any ideas for variations on cover from having multiple people provinding it?

Hoshigaki Hiru
Crew


Qyp
Crew

Manly Lunatic

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:12 pm


Dodge is for moving out of the way, Reflex is for quick reaction.

If Reflex is for moving out of the way, whats the point is keeping dodge in the system? None. There is no point in having two things that do the same thing.

Alright... how about a blocking skill?

Mundane?
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