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 Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:55 am
The omnipotence paradox is a family of semantic paradoxes which address two issues: Is an omnipotent entity logically possible? and What do we mean by 'omnipotence'?. The paradox states that: if a being can perform any action, then it should be able to create a task which this being is unable to perform; hence, this being cannot perform all actions. Yet, on the other hand, if this being cannot create a task that it is unable to perform, then there exists something it cannot do.
One version of the omnipotence paradox is the so-called paradox of the stone: "Could an omnipotent being create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?" If he could lift the rock, then it seems that the being would not have been omnipotent to begin with in that he would have been incapable of creating a heavy enough stone; if he could not lift the stone, then it seems that the being either would never have been omnipotent to begin with or would have ceased to be omnipotent upon his creation of the stone
The argument is medieval, dating at least to the 12th century, addressed by the Muslim Averroës (1126–119 cool and later by the Christian Thomas Aquinas
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:57 am
So what are your opinions?
Can God create a stone so heavy He couldn't lift it?
If He can then He's not all Powerful
If He can't then He can't do Everything
Its a Paradox People have asked for centuries
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Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:00 am
I'll post my answer shortly
Many Muslims, Jews, and Christians have come up with different answers in the past however I want to hear your own answers
Thank you
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:40 am
As a spirit, he would just think "move" and it would move. So, it doesn't matter how heavy it is from a physical standpoint. Spirit-side, he just thinks things and they obey.
The loophole is for him to manifest physically as a creation, where all things material exist, still being God but humbling himself to the level of a created creature, then try to lift it physically, without commanding anything, and not be able to lift it—from a physical standpoint—because he did successfully create the heaviest rock in creation which only he, as God the Father, could move spirit-side via command, though not able to lift it relying on his physical/material creature manifestation. God can lift it by commanding, but not physically lifting it, if he was playing fair by his own rules which he programmed into his creation. God isn't physical though he can manifest in physical form, in which case he has chosen to limit himself in his corporeal avatar.
It's not much of a paradox from a Christian perspective. He stays as God the Father, he makes a "Sim" of himself to physically interact with his other creations (God the Son), that Sim is subject to all the laws of creation like the rest of his creatures, though it's still God himself. God the son is limited (he's simply an avatar of God; though it is God manifesting into his creation). God the Father is not limited, existing outside of time/space/matter which by definition means he won't be doing any physical lifting, just commanding things into obedience. It's like our avatars on Gaia: it's us but not us at the same time.
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:53 am
real eyes realize As a spirit, he would just think "move" and it would move. So, it doesn't matter how heavy it is from a physical standpoint. Spirit-side, he just thinks things and they obey. The loophole is for him to manifest physically as a creation, where all things material exist, still being God but humbling himself to the level of a created creature, then try to lift it physically, without commanding anything, and not be able to lift it—from a physical standpoint—because he did successfully create the heaviest rock in creation which only he, as God the Father, could move spirit-side via command, though not able to lift it relying on his physical/material creature manifestation. God can lift it by commanding, but not physically lifting it, if he was playing fair by his own rules which he programmed into his creation. God isn't physical though he can manifest in physical form, in which case he has chosen to limit himself in his corporeal avatar. It's not much of a paradox from a Christian perspective. He stays as God the Father, he makes a "Sim" of himself to physically interact with his other creations (God the Son), that Sim is subject to all the laws of creation like the rest of his creatures, though it's still God himself. God the son is limited (he's simply an avatar of God; though it is God manifesting into his creation). God the Father is not limited, existing outside of time/space/matter which by definition means he won't be doing any physical lifting, just commanding things into obedience. It's like our avatars on Gaia: it's us but not us at the same time. I'm glad you came up with your own opinion
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Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:02 pm
My Opinion
People commonly say that God is able to do all things; whatever He wants to do, He can do. In the Bible it says, “... through God all things are possible (Matthew, 19: 26; Mark 10: 27, 14: 36).”
The Quran states:
“…Indeed, Allah (God) is able to do all things.” (Quran 2:20)
…and the Hindu scriptures carry texts of similar meanings.
All the major religious texts contain general expressions regarding the basic concept of God’s omnipotence. He is Greater than all things, and through Him all things are possible. If this general concept is to be translated into practical terms, one has to first identify and understand the basic attributes of God. Most societies perceive God as an eternal being without beginning or end. If, on the basis that God is able to do all things, and it was asked whether God could die, what would be the answer? Since dying is part of “all things,” can it be said, “If He wants to?” Of course this cannot be said.
So, there is a problem here. God is defined as being ever-living, without end, and dying means “coming to an end.” Consequently, to ask if He can die is actually a nonsensical question. It is self-contradictory. Similarly, to ask whether God can be born, is also absurd because God has already been defined as eternal, having no beginning. Being born means having a beginning, coming into existence after not existing. In this same vein, atheist philosophers enjoy asking theists: “Can God create a stone too heavy for Him to lift?” If the theist says yes, it means that God can create something greater than Himself. And if he says no, it means that God is unable to do all things.
Therefore, the term “all things” in the phrase “God is able to do all things” excludes the absurdities. It cannot include things that contradict His divine attributes; things that would make Him less than God, like, forgetting, sleeping, repenting, growing, eating, etc. Instead, it includes only “all things” that are consistent with Him being God. This is what the statement “God is able to do all things” means. It cannot be understood in the absolute sense; it must be qualified.
The claim that God became man is also an absurdity. It is not befitting of God to take on human characteristics because it means that the Creator has become His creation. However, the creation is a product of the creative act of the Creator. If the Creator became His creation, it would mean that the Creator created Himself, which is an obvious absurdity. To be created, He would first have to not exist, and, if He did not exist, how could He then create? Furthermore, if He were created, it would mean that He had a beginning, which also contradicts His being eternal. By definition creation is in need of a creator. For created beings to exist they must have a creator to bring them into existence. God cannot need a creator because God is the Creator.
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:33 am
That explanation would make sense only if Jesus had not existed before the creation of the world, but he did exist before the creation of anything; the whole universe was created through him. Jesus already existed since the beginning. His earthly physical vessel, on the otherhand, had to be created. No one is claiming God is the body itself; we're saying he's the spirit that manifested. Obviously, the body wasn't going to exist beforehand since that's a created part made to interact with earth people on a physical/material level. John 1:1, 14 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[...]
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:15-17 (NIV)
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Hebrews 1:1-4 (NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Psalm 33:6 (NIV)
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Revelation 22:13 (NIV)
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
You're using a strawman (misrepresenting what the bible actually says) and then going about disproving that strawman argument. That's not what the bible is originally saying about him: Jesus is not a creation / never was created, only his body was, and not by man but by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18 ). edit: I might as well include these too for the rest of the guild to have at their disposal. The only other person to hold the same titles as God the Father is Jesus: YHWH in the Old Testament: Isaiah 41:14; Isaiah 43:14; Isaiah 44:6,24; Isaiah 47:4; Isaiah 48:17; Isaiah 49:7,26; Isaiah 54:5,8; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 60:16; Isaiah 63:16, Ezekiel 34:12-16 Jesus in the New Testament: Luke 24:20-22; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:17-19; Galatians 3:13-14; John 6:69; Mark 1:24; Luke 1:35; Acts 2:22-28; Acts 13:34-36; (had to separate them; too many verses)· Revelation 1:17-18; 2:8-9; 22:12-13; Heb 1:1-4; Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:1,14; Titus 3:6; 2 Peter 2:20; Acts 5:31; Acts 13:23; Ephesians 5:23; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 1:10; Matthew 25:31-32; John 10:7-18; John 19:19; Jesus = YHWH.
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:44 am
real eyes realize That explanation would make sense only if Jesus had not existed before the creation of the world, but he did exist before the creation of anything; the whole universe was created through him. Jesus already existed since the beginning. His earthly physical vessel, on the otherhand, had to be created. No one is claiming God is the body itself; we're saying he's the spirit that manifested. Obviously, the body wasn't going to exist beforehand since that's a created part made to interact with earth people on a physical/material level. John 1:1, 14 (NIV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[...]
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:15-17 (NIV)
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Hebrews 1:1-4 (NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Psalm 33:6 (NIV)
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Revelation 22:13 (NIV)
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
You're using a strawman (misrepresenting what the bible actually says) and then going about disproving that strawman argument. That's not what the bible is originally saying about him: Jesus is not a creation / never was created, only his body was, and not by man but by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18 ). edit: I might as well include these too for the rest of the guild to have at their disposal. The only other person to hold the same titles as God the Father is Jesus: YHWH in the Old Testament: Isaiah 41:14; Isaiah 43:14; Isaiah 44:6,24; Isaiah 47:4; Isaiah 48:17; Isaiah 49:7,26; Isaiah 54:5,8; Isaiah 59:20; Isaiah 60:16; Isaiah 63:16, Ezekiel 34:12-16 Jesus in the New Testament: Luke 24:20-22; Titus 2:14; 1 Peter 1:17-19; Galatians 3:13-14; John 6:69; Mark 1:24; Luke 1:35; Acts 2:22-28; Acts 13:34-36; (had to separate them; too many verses)· Revelation 1:17-18; 2:8-9; 22:12-13; Heb 1:1-4; Colossians 1:15-17; John 1:1,14; Titus 3:6; 2 Peter 2:20; Acts 5:31; Acts 13:23; Ephesians 5:23; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 1:10; Matthew 25:31-32; John 10:7-18; John 19:19; Jesus = YHWH. I disagree However I'm not here to debate I just gave my Islamic Interpretation
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Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:39 am
real eyes realize As a spirit, he would just think "move" and it would move. So, it doesn't matter how heavy it is from a physical standpoint. Spirit-side, he just thinks things and they obey. The loophole is for him to manifest physically as a creation, where all things material exist, still being God but humbling himself to the level of a created creature, then try to lift it physically, without commanding anything, and not be able to lift it—from a physical standpoint—because he did successfully create the heaviest rock in creation which only he, as God the Father, could move spirit-side via command, though not able to lift it relying on his physical/material creature manifestation. God can lift it by commanding, but not physically lifting it, if he was playing fair by his own rules which he programmed into his creation. God isn't physical though he can manifest in physical form, in which case he has chosen to limit himself in his corporeal avatar. It's not much of a paradox from a Christian perspective. He stays as God the Father, he makes a "Sim" of himself to physically interact with his other creations (God the Son), that Sim is subject to all the laws of creation like the rest of his creatures, though it's still God himself. God the son is limited (he's simply an avatar of God; though it is God manifesting into his creation). God the Father is not limited, existing outside of time/space/matter which by definition means he won't be doing any physical lifting, just commanding things into obedience. It's like our avatars on Gaia: it's us but not us at the same time. What she said. This is definitely one of the best articulated answers to this popular "paradox" that I've encountered. Kudos. cheese_whine
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Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 1:49 pm
real eyes realize As a spirit, he would just think "move" and it would move. So, it doesn't matter how heavy it is from a physical standpoint. Spirit-side, he just thinks things and they obey. The loophole is for him to manifest physically as a creation, where all things material exist, still being God but humbling himself to the level of a created creature, then try to lift it physically, without commanding anything, and not be able to lift it—from a physical standpoint—because he did successfully create the heaviest rock in creation which only he, as God the Father, could move spirit-side via command, though not able to lift it relying on his physical/material creature manifestation. God can lift it by commanding, but not physically lifting it, if he was playing fair by his own rules which he programmed into his creation. God isn't physical though he can manifest in physical form, in which case he has chosen to limit himself in his corporeal avatar. It's not much of a paradox from a Christian perspective. He stays as God the Father, he makes a "Sim" of himself to physically interact with his other creations (God the Son), that Sim is subject to all the laws of creation like the rest of his creatures, though it's still God himself. God the son is limited (he's simply an avatar of God; though it is God manifesting into his creation). God the Father is not limited, existing outside of time/space/matter which by definition means he won't be doing any physical lifting, just commanding things into obedience. It's like our avatars on Gaia: it's us but not us at the same time. Ah, very insightful real eyes. It's kind of like when Jesus caused the storm to cease by command. Mark 4:35-40 35 And the same day, when the evening was come, he saith unto them, Let us pass over unto the other side. 36 And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships. 37 And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. 38 And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? 39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. 40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?
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Posted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:46 pm
Any other opinions?
Your own opinions
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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:31 pm
Islamic Teacher Therefore, the term “all things” in the phrase “God is able to do all things” excludes the absurdities. It cannot include things that contradict His divine attributes; things that would make Him less than God ... Instead, it includes only “all things” that are consistent with Him being God. I totally agree with this statement. Undoubtedly my opinion differs greatly from yours concerning what His divine attributes are or what actions are consistent with Him being God, but otherwise this is exactly how I would explain away the paradox.
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Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:36 am
keito-ninja Islamic Teacher Therefore, the term “all things” in the phrase “God is able to do all things” excludes the absurdities. It cannot include things that contradict His divine attributes; things that would make Him less than God ... Instead, it includes only “all things” that are consistent with Him being God. I totally agree with this statement. Undoubtedly my opinion differs greatly from yours concerning what His divine attributes are or what actions are consistent with Him being God, but otherwise this is exactly how I would explain away the paradox. What attributes do you attribute to God?
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Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:06 pm
Islamic Teacher keito-ninja Islamic Teacher Therefore, the term “all things” in the phrase “God is able to do all things” excludes the absurdities. It cannot include things that contradict His divine attributes; things that would make Him less than God ... Instead, it includes only “all things” that are consistent with Him being God. I totally agree with this statement. Undoubtedly my opinion differs greatly from yours concerning what His divine attributes are or what actions are consistent with Him being God, but otherwise this is exactly how I would explain away the paradox. What attributes do you attribute to God? Many and more, but I'll just highlight some specific attributes that are different from your own beliefs. I believe God did have a beginning though he has no end; God can forget because he forgets our sins when we repent (choosing to forget rather than forgetting because of absent mindedness); God grows, though perhaps not in the way we do; God maybe eats and maybe doesn't... and I didn't quite follow your paragraph about creations and creators, but I have a different view on that as well.
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Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:14 pm
keito-ninja Islamic Teacher keito-ninja Islamic Teacher Therefore, the term “all things” in the phrase “God is able to do all things” excludes the absurdities. It cannot include things that contradict His divine attributes; things that would make Him less than God ... Instead, it includes only “all things” that are consistent with Him being God. I totally agree with this statement. Undoubtedly my opinion differs greatly from yours concerning what His divine attributes are or what actions are consistent with Him being God, but otherwise this is exactly how I would explain away the paradox. What attributes do you attribute to God? Many and more, but I'll just highlight some specific attributes that are different from your own beliefs. I believe God did have a beginning though he has no end; God can forget because he forgets our sins when we repent (choosing to forget rather than forgetting because of absent mindedness); God grows, though perhaps not in the way we do; God maybe eats and maybe doesn't... and I didn't quite follow your paragraph about creations and creators, but I have a different view on that as well. In my view God has no beginning or an end He is the First without a beginning and the Last without an end He never forgets and always forgives He doesn't eat nor require any sustenance He is above all that
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