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 Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:19 pm
I couldn't find the official dragon born dlc thread if there is one so I just marked this post with spoilers to be safe.
Anyway. Want to know the one thing irritating me about this new DLC? Every time someone refers to the Nerevaine they refer to Morrowind's savior as a "he".
Now it's been a long time since I played Morrowind but according to the wiki on the Nerevaine: The Nerevarine is the player character in Morrowind and so is not specifically male nor female (though is referred to as "he" in the opening cutscene), nor of any specific race. (and except for one instance on the page manages to avoid assigning the Nerevarine a gender either)
For the record, my Nerevarine was a she and this "male default in just about everything" seriously irritates me. Probably no one else will be bothered by this than me but wow.
Neloth just barely avoided an arrow to the head after being like the fifth person to use male pronouns for the Nerevaine. Heck, half the time my female dragonborn gets referred to as lass or girl (which is patronizing) or also with male pronouns and what a way to make a gamer feel unwelcome in what is supposed to be a fun escape /fail
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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:13 pm
LOL the Dragonborn thread was actually a few threads down on the list. Oh well more threads wont hurt.
I know this wont make you feel less pissed off, but there is still that huge stereotype that the majority of gamers are guys. And as a result Beth's default pronoun for past PC's are male.
Although its quite funny as many guy gamers are playing with female characters in Skyrim. Mods are the main reason for that. It's hard to load up the Nexis or Steam and find skimpy armor mods for the ladies or body mods that make them naked/bigger boobs/etc.
I've played more male and female character on the Xbox and I've never had a problem with the gender assignment dialogue. My main issue is when the dialogue doesn't take into account what race you are. There have been a number of times that being a Dunmer should have triggered different dialogue is say I wanted to join the Stormcloaks.
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Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:02 pm
Oh. Apologies for that. I really actually did look for it... I'm quite aware of the fact not all gamers are dudes. That just irritates me more. If it's a stereotype, which means people are aware of it, what's the problem here? I'm not even asking for anything real specific. Just that they don't assume what gender I played as. It's not okay that "it's just the way it is" which is why I posted this in the first place. Just because it's not a problem for you doesn't mean it isn't a problem. For the record my gender is a lot more complicated than simply "woman" but how would you feel if someone constantly got something intrinsic to your being wrong over and over, even when corrected, because they assume what they want about you? Then, considering we're just talking about games here, when that happens in just about every other aspect of your life (except codified activities assigned to you which are degraded and treated as unimportant anyway) multiply that by a hundred. I can only imagine what this crap is like for trans people or genderqueer people actively identifying as such. Hard? It's not hard at all to find mods that do any of the things you mentioned. Here's an entire tumblr of shitty mods most of which either dress women in skimpy clothes (if they can even be described as "clothes" in some) or increase women's breasts to the size of watermelons though I believe there are other crappy mods too. I simply searched for "horrible skyrim mods" and this popped up. You sure you looked? And yes, the race thing is a problem. As a bosmer who joined the Companions and had frequent run ins with the Thalmor and Stormcloaks too, it's a problem for sure. But it's not a "well this is more of a problem than that thing you find problematic" they're both problems and they deserve equal attention. It's funny how just asking people to acknowledge I exist, not assume I'm something I'm not, is such a problem.
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Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:21 am
I dunno, maybe I'm not as picky as some people when it comes to how things are referenced in video games. Whether I play as male or female and whether all the facts line up. Now, I guess I'm good at tolerating some of this stuff because of how I am, but I'm not going to get into that(if someone directly said something to me, sure... but in a game, no body is going out of there way to make me feel uncomfortable on purpose). If everything starts becoming 'politically correct' in a sense it gets annoying to me(I've come to view political correctness as a load of bullshit, but that's not saying people don't deserve respect as whoever they are. I just don't like when everyone else butts in and tells you how you have to act around people just because of who they are and just plain making everything freakin' ridiculous.). Yes, there are female gamers, and I'm not saying they should be ignored but... I guess I just don't understand the fuss exactly?
I know female(not saying males wouldn't, but I suppose they are less likely to be bothered by this) gamers who don't get worked up about this kind of stuff. Actually, they probably wouldn't even notice. And I'm pretty sure no one went out of there way to say "no one would have played Morrowind with a female character". Sometimes it's just plain awkward to refer to something as gender neutral in speech and writing. I know I've had trouble with it, but maybe I'm just terrible with english.
I still have the freedom to make my character any gender or race that I feel like without being scorned for it. Well, except my Argonian gets called "boot" all the time by other NPCs in game. But... why should I get worked up about that? I'm not gonna go get all offended because some dang NPC called my character something unsavory.
I know plenty of older games where there were no options to even have your character be female, heck, Fable II nearly DIDN'T have the option to have female characters(and it was women on the development team who said to keep it, I'm pretty dang sure, and they listened and I'm glad they did). Being a female gamer isn't exactly something that unusual nowadays. Least not to me, it's never been for me. Though females gamers still aren't a big of a demographic as males, sure, but they aren't as ignored as they used to be. And change is slow, but it does change.
I'm not saying there aren't legitimate things to get annoyed over... but sometimes I feel people are a little TOO picky.
It's a few lines in a game. They're not denying that you exist. They're saying a character was male.
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:58 am
Note to self: Proof reading before hitting post. Me leaving out the word "not" in it's not hard really ******** me there. I'm quite aware of all the mods on the Nexus and Steam that do things to the female characters body/the so called "armor" that's up there as well. I don't have the PC version but I still watch this weekly YouTube video that shows off the "top" mods of the week. And every time there is an "armor" mod featured in its that stupidly skimpy crap that's more armored underwear than actual armor.
Supi I never said one issue was greater than the other, I was simply stating an issue I had with the game when it came down to dialogue recognition. However I'm starting to feel like your making a bigger deal out on one line, about a character from a previous game, out of a game that has hours of dialogue.
I can understand the issue if in every "current" game all characters were called he in all the dialogue. That's just lazy programming and kills any kind of immersion the game offers. Another reason why I brought up the not recognized the players race in specific situations.
It's like your trying to use this line of dialogue as a scapegoat for your real life personal issues. I'm for all about accepting people at who they want to be, ******** those old social/gender norms, its antiquated thinking. All this homophobic, we have to protect "x" lifestyle is a load of garbage. Let people live their own bloody lives, they aren't forcing you to be like them, so don't force them to be like you. I'm sorry that people are asshats toward your personal lifestyle, in my book they can go ******** off.
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Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:05 pm
See, I figured this would happen. Get annoyed at something that yet again assumes anyone who does whatever it is is one thing when you're something else (ie something was male when that was only a possibility), make a post about it, and get told you're "too sensitive", "too emotional" and my ever personal favorite "too PC". Ah, and while we're at it let's say that "one line of dialogue" (which it isn't, it's several and said by anyone who wishes to refer to the Nerevarine) is a result of me taking things too personally.
How about I state this clearly for the record? I got irritated at a ******** line of dialogue that assumed things. That's. Really. It. I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world, that Bethseda did it intentionally, that it makes the idea of playing Skyrim anymore absolutely horrible. I'm just saying it sucked because it sucks.
You know, I keep reading over my first post and all I'm seeing is the male default for something that was possibly not male irritates me and makes me feel unwelcome. If, Nerevar, you're saying I'm bringing my "personal life issues" into things by that paragraph about why someone or something assuming a male default sucks you didn't appear to understand why it would suck. So I explained it to you. I'm not saying this one incident is the worst thing in the world that could ever happen, was purposefully intended, or is a reason to hate the game or something. I'm going to say this over and over and over so maybe it'll get through at some point.
This? This assumption just sucks.
All right, I understand leaving a word out can seriously mess up a sentence (done so myself before) so no biggie.
Nerevar, you don't have to say one issue is more important than the other. What you said was that this didn't bother you as much as the issue that actually bothered you, which says to me that the reason I posted this isn't cause for concern and what the both of you have posted afterwards rather proves it. You're entitled to feel like I'm making too big a deal out of something. I'm entitled not to care, as well. Not to mention the fact it's not, actually, just one line of dialogue. Or did you miss the part where I said my female dovakhin has been referred to as male several times throughout Skyrim?
Second thanks for telling me what I actually am doing here. Thanks. For that. I got upset that once again something I was having a fun time with assumed me to be something I am not. It happens all the ******** time. It's not that hard to do gender neutral dialogue at all. Seriously, not a hard thing to do. You know why it's supposedly so difficult? Because of the gender binary and the male default. That's why it's considered normal for a character to be referred to as "he" or "him" when the character is not necessarily male. Or even human. Guess what? It's remarkably easy to refer to the Nerevaine as gender neutral simply by using solely using the name.
Hero - let's point out a few things
1. I don't assume Bethseda did this on purpose to personally injure me. And no, I'm not saying you said that before it can be turned against me it's from this line here "no body is going out of there way to make me feel uncomfortable on purpose". Guess what? Intentions are not the measuring stick of if things are harmful or not. You can hurt someone and have the best intentions in the world and that still doesn't make what happened right. Now, like I said, I don't assume there's some big conspiracy in the world because of this. I know, however, a lot of things in the world assume a male default such as this.
2. Ah yes, let's bring in the "PC is bullshit". I got irritated over this instance. I didn't say "let's boycott Bethseda till they give into my demands to change the dialogue". I said I'm tired of a lot of s**t in the world assuming the player is male by default. That's about it.
3. I know female gamers who don't get worked up about this stuff. Hmm. Good for you? All female gamers are not part of some hive mind. Different things matter to different people. Plus a female gamer who isn't bothered by this doesn't speak for me. I am allowed to have a different opinion than women especially since I went to the pains of explaining that my gender identity is a lot more complicated than simply "check box for male or female".
4. It's difficult referring to something as gender neutral in speech because the English language lacks a neutral pronoun because people refuse to accept there are other options than male or female. Really if that s**t would stop it wouldn't be hard at all. Doesn't mean it's not important. Like I said once again, it's not just assuming the character wasn't female, it's assuming it wasn't any other of the various gender identities out there. Again for repetition, I don't think Bethseda did it on purpose (they probably thought nothing of it actually, just like both of you do, which is the point I'm making) nor do I think they did it to personally injure me. Sinking in yet?
5. First of all, assuming gender and calling someone an unsavory nickname are too completely different issues. Second of all, something doesn't bother you? Good for you. Don't assume it shouldn't bother everyone else.
6. You think you need to tell me that there are older games that didn't have the option? Color me surprised. Second of all...this isn't a discussion about whether female gamers exist or not. They do. It's pretty actually clear. This is a discussion about why this irritated me which has a lot to do with the male default which is a thing that exists...nearly everywhere.
And thanks for implying I'm simply just too picky.
But right there is again, my point: They're saying a character was male. The Nerevarine was NOT male. The Nerevarine was POSSIBLY male. See. The. Difference?
Do you two not understand how it can feel like one doesn't exist when wherever you turn your gender is assumed for you and it's almost always male? I said this irritated me and made me feel unwelcome, like I didn't exist, 'cause yet again assumptions are made. Never once did I say this one instance is the root of all evil, all problems in the world, intentional, means to boycott anything or whatever you want to add.
It's an irritation stacked on a whole bunch of other irritations. We don't live in a world where we can separate personal experience and art, video games, what the f ever. This very game is influenced by real world cultures (albeit some that have changed over the years) for heaven's sake. Our art, our video games, our everything is a product of the culture and values it comes from. This isn't just one instance in something that will never ever happen again, this is a reoccurring theme that, yet again, affects more than just women.
And one final time: I got irritated at yet again the male default assuming the character I played was male.
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:48 am
Alright, I think I get it mostly.
Like I said, I wasn't particularly sure of what the fuss was exactly(I'm not the sharpest tool), and hence why I was all over the place in my post.
I mean, it's hard for me to find something like this irritating personally.
And even would've been something I wouldn't have noticed, even though I'm yet to have played Dragonborn.
In video games I feel welcome because I'm not assumed/forced to be female(which is different for me in real life).
And I've never really thought of it any deeper than that, or coming from it at any other angle.
'cause I look at it and see "They just chose to make the Nerevaine male" and whether I played a female or male Nerevaine... don't really matter to me, I'm not the Nerevaine anymore. The Nerevaine is just another character in the story from my standpoint, playing as the Dragonborn.
I guess for me, I'm just happy to play as whatever character I like at the time. Male, female, whatever in between and that's kinda where things stop mattering.
Feel free to knock me over the head if I'm wrong again.
Though most of it is just me explaining why I, personally, find it difficult to get irritated about.
As for male being 'default'? I don't really have much to say on it, because that's extends to the world outside of video games and I'm not looking for some debate on gender.
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:57 am
:/ I missed the line where you said that the game would reference the Dragonborn with male pronouns even if the PC was female. I've played with both a male and female character and I never noticed that. Was it spoken dialogue or was it like in a quest letter/journal?
Alright I sorta understand where you are coming from, It's just something like this is hard for me to find personally irritating. I made an assumption based on your second post that events in your personal life was the reasoning behind this issue, and I'm sorry that I did that. I don't want this to spiral into a huge debate on gender and stereotypes, that will cause tension better all of us.
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:42 pm
It's spoken dialogue. I'm not sure if the journal ever refers to your character outside of first person.
It's bothersome and unless you experience it or have other experiences which are similarly frustrating, you're not going to get it. I get that. I expect it. But something that doesn't bother you doesn't by default not bother everyone else in the world and it's tiring to have to break through that assumption first before anything else.
For the record I didn't even want a damn debate. About anything. I wanted to blow off some steam about something that irritated me and why. Yes it was about gender. Yes I know it's a big "scare" button. And yes I think it's stupid that even so much as talking about it sets off a time bomb.
By the way, neither of your problems were not getting it. That's fine, it's not always readily apparent and s'not like I'm the best communicator in the world either. Your problems were the multitude of derailment tactics and subtle jabs at my personal issues that littered your posts.
I frankly have no real desire to encounter more, so don't worry Nerevar. The tension will stay with me.
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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:06 pm
Supe, just a word or two here.
If it really doesn't bother you as much as you said it does, why are you making these somewhat long posts complaining and justifying your complaints about them?
It's not like Bethesda is known for inter-game coding or that they can have Skyrim read any Oblivion and Morrowind files (God help you if even then you would have multiple file saves of both genders as I do) and alter the text to conform.
Also, pointing it out that "he" in a primitive form can be used for both genders. In context to God, Demons, Satan, Angels (who are neither) or in instructions or papers referring to a third person. After all, we do sometimes tend to say Mankind for both genders. I'm not saying this justifies calling a female a "he," but it does provide some leeway.
Also, if you wish to blow off steam, don't do it on menial things. That'll just lead you to the path of anger, which leads to the Dark Side.
Happy to give some Dovahwisdom.
See y'all after out!
The Dovahkiin
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