|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:52 am
 |
|
|
 |
I would like to open this with a story of two men. Note how Jesus says 'certain', to indicate that this is not just a parable, but a story of what happened to two very living, very real individuals:
Luke 16:19-32
King James Version
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Eternal torment or annihilation?
-Hell is annihilation and not eternal punishment
-Man has no conscious existence apart from the body after he dies
-False teachers of annihilation: Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, Herbert W. Armstrong/plain truth magazine.
Annihilationists argue that if you burn some paper, it is eternally destroyed and that is how we should view hell. Lets check it out in the Bible!
This outline is dedicated to:
Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. Dan 3:19
Moses, who saw the burning bush that was not consumed by fire. Ex 3:2
And to God, who can do all things!
What hell is not:
Dante's hell
Annihilationists like to refute this false concept of hell invented by an antagonist named "Dante". When Annihilationists refute this concept of hell, Bible believers wonder what the point is? Their false doctrine of annihilation is not proved right, just because they prove Dante's equally false concept of hell wrong! Yet you will notice that almost all annihilationists dishonestly try to represent Dante's false view of hell as that which orthodox Christians believe!
Dante's Inferno
Catholic
Purgatory
Purgatory is another false view of hell. It is taught by Catholics. They got it from the uninspired writings of the apocrypha. Purgatory is where you can be tormented for a time to pay for your own sins, then enter paradise! None of this is what Christians teach!
Purgatory Wikipedia
Hades
Hell and Hades are two different places at two different times. Departed spirits of men go to Hades and await judgement. After judgement, the wicked will be cast into Hell.
Man's body is not immortal right now.
Man is not immortal YET, but will be made that way! But mortality corresponds to the body. It is the body that will be made immortal, not the soul!
"The real issue between Dualists and Annihilationists is nothing other than this: Does Scripture teach that the wicked will be made immortal for the purpose of suffering endless pain; or does it teach that the wicked following whatever degree and duration of pain God may justly inflict, will finally and truly die, perish and become extinct forever and ever?" (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 425)
First we notice that we as Christians are to seek immortality. Obviously we do not possess it yet if we seek it
Rom 2:7 "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life"
Second at resurrection the mortal (us now with a physical mortal body) will put on the immortal (all men will have an immortal body)
1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!
How can the wicked suffer the second death if they are immortal and then suffer the second death? If the wicked die again, then how can:
"come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory?" 1 Cor 15
Simple, mortal refers to the body part not the soul. when man dies he survives death consciously. After resurrection, his immortal spiritual body is given to him and he will never again be apart from his body. IMMORTAL. But the second death is not the separation of the body and soul, but the separation of man from God for eternity in hell!
Remember, the saying, "Death is swallowed up in victory" will come about at the final resurrection. If the wicked die PHYSICALLY again, then God was wrong when he said: "when this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."" Obviously this was not true, for the wicked are swallowed up in physical death and death keeps its victory forever!
While living
We are a spirit with a physical body
While dead in Hades
We are a spirit without a physical body
after resurrection
We are a spirit with a spirit body, just like Christs! 1 Jn 3:2; Phil 3:20-21
This argument is irrefutable unless one:
denies that the wicked are even raised from the dead as Christadelphians do thus contradicting "there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Acts 24:15
affirms that none of 1 Cor 15 has anything to say about the resurrection of the wicked, the central resurrection chapter of the Bible. Yet v22 proves this applies to ALL MEN! "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."
The #1 argument annihilationists use:
(Notice it is an argument of human reasoning, not scripture)
Herbert W. Armstrong and his many splinter groups state:
A loving God wouldn't torment forever his creation
A loving God will torment forever his creation
Our God is a loving, merciful Father who does not want to consign anyone to that fate. (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
"The verse ... Rev 20:10 ... indicates that the devil is to be cast into the lake of fire that had already consumed and destroyed the beast and false prophet. Satan, being spirit, is the one who will be tormented forever. The evil angels-the demons-will be included with Satan in his torment" (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
Herbert W. Armstrong and many of his splinter groups have taken the unusual position that the Devil and his angels will be tormented forever.
Argument refuted:
You already worship and respect a God who is going to eternally torment the Devil and millions of angels! These spirit beings cannot be destroyed by fire! You already believe a loving God is going to do this! The Devil and man are both equally God's creatures. The argument is completely inconsistent.
Seventh-day Adventists & Jehovah's Witnesses believe the devil and demons will be annihilated along with evil men. Christadelphians do not believe that the devil and demons are actual persons, but merely the personification of sin.
These annihilationists argue:
"Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments. Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ." (a SDA leader)
"The doctrine of eternal torment is a wicked defamation of Jehovah. It is a foul stain upon his lovable name." (a Jw leader)
And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? And what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God. (Jw's: J. F. Rutherford, Watchtower Society's Second President)
How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself. (Clark Pinnock, Professor, McMaster University)
Argument refuted:
This argument is faulty human reasoning and not based on any passage of the Bible. We may not understand the justice of God by eternally punishing the wicked. Yet we also do not understand the grace of God by rewarding the saved with eternal life. On human terms, we cannot understand either "kindness and severity of God" Rom 11:22
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:58 am
|
|
|
|
The devil & his angels tormented forever
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Wicked men tormented forever
Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
The devil and angels are just as much God's creation as man, therefore the argument is invalid!
Unsaved men spend eternity in the same place as the Devil and his angels: Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
According to annihilationists, man is wholly physical and the devil is wholly spiritual (a created spirit being). Yet both will be thrown into the same place! Obviously then, man is not wholly physical, but has a spiritual side, just like the devil.
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is the fire literal or figurative?
H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups: Literal
Valley of Hinnom, located just outside the city of Jerusalem. You can see it in the maps at the back of your Bible.
H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups believe that this valley is where the wicked will literally be burnt with literal fire.
"gehenna and the lake of fire are the same. A very large fire would have the appearance of a fiery lake, hence its description". ... "flames of the "lake of fire" purify the earth's surface, burning in one vast worldwide holocaust 2 Pet. 3:10. ... all the things man has created be burned up, as well as the rest of those People who will not have received salvation and eternal life because of willful rebellion against God ... the wicked to be reduced to ashes by the fire which will consume the earth's surface" (WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
This great fire is the same as the "lake of fire," mentioned in Revelation, when God judges the incorrigibly wicked. It will sweep around the entire earth! The elements themselves will be dissolved, the surface of the earth will be purged and consumed with tremendous heat. Every remnant of man's sin, every sign of iniquity, every last trace of evil will be devoured by the heat of this fire. (Heaven, Hell And The Hereafter, Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God) W. F. Dankenbring)
Seventh-day Adventist: Literal and symbolic
Location of Hell ... this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. ... The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone." ... This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment." (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)
Jehovah's Witness: literal and Symbolic
"the surrounding language of the book of revelation make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Lake of fire)
"so also the revelation of Jesus Christ with his powerful angels in a flaming fire will result in permanent destruction only for the wicked 2 Pe 3:5-7" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Fire)
"Symbolic of compete destruction . Jesus used Gehenna as a representative of utter destruction. ... the symbolic picture here" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Gehenna)
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:01 am
|
|
|
|
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Will the Hell fire ever burn out?
H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups:
"Even so it will be with the FINAL gehenna fire. It will be unquenched--but it will finally burn itself out!"(WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
Many people believe in an ... ever-burning hellfire ... But the Bible's simple teaching conveys nothing of the kind. Our God is a loving, merciful Father who does not want to consign anyone to that fate. (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
This is why Jesus calls it aionios or age-lasting fire! The translation "everlasting" is misleading, since the fire itself will not burn forever. Obviously not, since God's Word clearly shows that when the present earth is purged and purified, it will be refashioned into a resplendent NEW EARTH! ... Jude 7 calls this ancient punishment "eternal fire" -- yet, the fire which devoured these cities in ancient times is not still burning in Palestine today! It burned itself out, long, long ago! ... "Unquenchable Fire" Mark 9:43 ... Does this mean the fire burns forever? Not at all. Take a match, light it and set a piece of paper on fire. Let it burn. Don't put it out, or snuff it out. Just let the paper burn, until it burns up. Soon it will burn itself out. Now, what do you have? A burned-up piece of paper. But did you put it out? Did you "quench" it? No. You left it unquenched. It was not quenched. Not at all! Even so, the final Gehenna fire will not be "quenched," or "put out." Nevertheless, in time, it will burn itself out when the wicked and all their wicked works are burned up! Any fire will go out when it runs out of fuel. That's the way the final Gehenna fire will be. In time, it will naturally burn itself out!(Heaven, Hell And The Hereafter, Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God) W. F. Dankenbring)
Seventh-day Adventist:
the New Testament references to "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:46), "eternal destruction" (2 Thess 1:9), "eternal fire" (Matt 25:41; Jude 7), and "eternal judgment" (Heb 6:2), do not necessarily mean a process that goes on forever. ... The actual duration of aionos is determined by the context. For example, the fire by which the wicked are punished is said to be "eternal" (Matt 18:8; 25:41) or "unquenchable" (Matt 3:12). This can hardly mean that the wicked will be agonizing forever in the midst of unextinguishable fire. The latter is clear from Jude 7, which says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered "a punishment of eternal fire." Here "eternal-aionou" obviously means not never-ending but complete and permanent. (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Advent Hope For Human Hopelessness)
the fire is "eternal-aionios," not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
"the length of punishment. HOW long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire? ... one thing we can say with certainty--the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity." (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)
Jehovah's Witness:
"Some commentators have pointed to the Biblical instances of the word torment to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, ... Rev 20:10 does not have that sense." (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Torment)
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Rev 20:10 Will the Devil be tormented forever in the lake of fire?
H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups: YES (see below)
Christadelphians: NO! (The devil doesn't exist.)
Jehovah's Witness: NO
"those cast into the lake of fire, [devil is cast there] go into second death from which there is no resurrection" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Lake of fire)
"Some commentators have pointed to the Biblical instances of the word torment to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, ... Rev 20:10 does not have that sense." (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Torment)
Seventh-day Adventist: NO
"sinners, Satan, and the devils ultimately are consumed in the lake of fire and experience the extinction of the second death" (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
Malachi 4:1 "the day is coming, burning like a furnace ... so that it will leave them neither root nor branch" No words of any language could make it more forceful or clear. This eternal fire burns up eternally. Even Satan, the root, is finally consumed. (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:13 am
|
|
|
|
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
How can the Devil be tormented forever, if the hell fire burns out?
Exclusive to H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups:
The verse ... Rev 20:10 ... indicates that the devil is to be cast into the lake of fire that had already consumed and destroyed the beast and false prophet. Satan, being spirit, is the one who will be tormented forever. The evil angels-the demons-will be included with Satan in his torment (Matthew 25:41). (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
"Satan will be cast into the same conflagration that will destroy all incorrigible mortals. Rev. 20:10 But since he is a spirit being, he will not be destroyed by the flames (see Luke 20:36) Revelation 20:10 shows Satan himself is to be TORMENTED unto the ages of the ages--"FOREVER AND EVER"! His torment will last forever. But not this fire. It will last only as long as combustible material remains to be consumed. Satan's torment, however, will continue forever as a mental anguish resulting from seeing all that he has striven toward, worked for, plotted for, burned up as the earth is purified by fire!"(WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
Armstrong Refuted:
Only H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups believe the devil will be tormented forever.
We are taking the unusual approach to let the Seventh-day Adventist church refute Armstrong. We agree with their comment.
"it is impossible to visualize how the devil and his angels, who are spirits could "be tormented [with fire] day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10). After all, fire belongs to the material, physical world, but the devil and his angels are not physical beings. Eldon Ladd rightly points out: "How a lake of literal fire can bring everlasting torture to non-physical beings is impossible to imagine. It is obvious that this is picturesque language describing a real fact in the spiritual world: the final and everlasting destruction of the forces of evil which have plagued men since the garden of Eden." (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
Armstrong openly admitted that the devil being a spirit being, is different from men and must be tormented forever, "being as angels unable to die" they argue.
How can Armstrong and splinter groups say that the Lake of Fire was designed specifically for the devil and his angels, then in reality, they are totally unaffected by it? Their eternal torment is not caused by the lake of fire, since they argue it goes out, but by mental anguish.
"Once burnt - always burnt" or "eternal conscious punishment"?
The devil and his angels:
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Wicked men:
Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Punishment that goes on forever!
Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Hell is a place of darkness reserved, not annihilation
Jude 13: "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever" "outer Darkness" Lk 13:27
Hell is banishment away from God's presence
2 Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord
Hell is banishment away from God's presence
"there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out." Mt 22:13
Hell is banishment away from God's presence
"outside are the dogs" Rev 22:15
"assign him a place with the hypocrites" Mt 24:51
Heaven and Hell are same duration
Eternal/forever
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Matthew 10:28 refutes annihilation
False Argument: "God will destroy both body and soul in hell."
Refutation of Argument: Jesus used two different Greek words to describe what man does and what God will do in hell. Man can kill
Mt 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill (apokteino) the body, but are unable to kill (apokteino) the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."
APOKTEINO: to kill
Lk 15:4
"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost (apollumi) one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost (apollumi), until he finds it?
apollumi
(a) lose, (Suffer) loss, lost
(b) destroy, destroyer, destruction, destructive
Lk 15:8
Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses (apollumi) one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?"
The sheep, coin and soul continue to exist even though lost!
The fact that Jesus changed words in Mt 10:28, proves that there is a difference in what man can do to man and what God can do to man.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:20 am
|
|
|
|
False argument refuted on Mt 10:28:
It is falsely argued by annihilationists, that in Mt 10:28 the word "apollumi" (Strongs #622) means to annihilate into non-existence because every other place this word is used in the TVM of #5658 (Tense - Aorist; Voice - Active; Mood - Infinitive) it means this. The truth is that we find most forms of the word used interchangeably. But remember they power of Mt 10:28 is that Jesus used two different words: Kill the body is all man can do, but destroy or "make lost" is what God does in Hell. Had Jesus used the same word in both instances, then annihilationists would have an argument because for them man can cause another man to cease to exist with a gun in the same way God can cause someone to cease to exist in Hell. But since two different words are used, our argument is powerful. Of course the most powerful argument we have is that only God can destroy the soul and man can only kill the body. The way annihilationists define man as a "mono-unit" of flesh alone, instead of a dichotomous combination of flesh and spirit like God, annihilationists simply cannot explain how man cannot kill the soul.
The wicked will not be annihilated But the heaven and earth will be annihilated!
2 Peter 3:6,9-12 "the world at that time was destroyed (Gr: apollumi), being flooded with water. ... The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish (Gr: apollumi) but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed (Gr: LOU) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!"
This text provides a powerful argument for those who view the annihilation of men and the eternal continuity of the physical creation.
Notice that 2 Pe 3 describes BOTH the "perishing (apollumi) of men" and "destruction (LOU) of creation".
Two different words are used. Notice that "apollumi" is used to destruction of men and that LOU is used to describe the annihilation of the earth!
But even better notice that the flood perished "apollumi" the earth in the time of Noah and a different Greek word is used for the annihilation "LOU" of the earth by fire!
The conclusion is that "apollumi" describes not the annihilation, but "making lost" both men in hell and the earth at the Noaic flood and "LOU" describes the annihilation of the earth at the second coming!
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Word Studies!
Studies of words that annihilationists misuse to teach extinction:
These words do not teach annihilation!
"The annihilationists assemble a multitude of texts which in reality are either taken out of context or based on the false assumption that such words as 'perish' automatically and necessarily always mean annihilation." (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 119- 120)
destroy
perish
consumed
devoured
1. "Destroy": For example, in the Old Testament, the word ahvad is the word which is usually translated as "destroy." In Num. 21:29, the people of Chemosh were "undone" ("destroyed" in NIV). In the context, the meaning of ahvad is that the people were conquered and sold into slavery. They were not annihilated but enslaved. In 1 Sa. 9:3, 20, Saul's asses were ahvad, i.e., lost. These asses were not annihilated, but lost. In Psalms 31:12, an ahvad vessel is merely broken, not annihilated. In Hab. 1:15, the word Gah rar means to catch something in a net, not to annihilate it. Dah chah in Isa. 53:10 is translated, " It pleased the Lord to bruise him.". Here it refers to Christ's sufferings, not to nonexistence. In Hosea 4:6, God's people are "destroyed" for lack of knowledge. In the context, this cannot mean that they were nonexistent. The same can be pointed out in the case of hoom (Ps. 55:2) and ghah ram (Josh. 6:8; Mic. 4:13). In the Greek, apollumi is used to describe ruined wineskins, lost sheep, and spoiled food (Matt. 9:17; 15:24; John 6:27). Apolia in Mark 14:4 refers to wasted perfume. Diapthero refers to moth-eaten cloth in Luke 12:33 katheiresis to the pulling down of a fortress (2 Cor. 10:4) kataluo refers to lodging for the night (Luke 9:12) kataryco to a fig tree which "encumbered the ground" (Luke 13:7); luo refers to putting off one's shoes (Acts 7:33); portheo refers to persecuting the church in Gal. 1:13; phthiro refers to defiling the temple of God in 1 Cor. 3:17. The assumption that the words "destroy" and "destruction" automatically mean annihilation is not good English, much less good Hebrew or Greek. We can think of someone being "destroyed" or "wiped out" in an emotional sense without implying that the person has ceased to exist. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)
2. "Perish" or "perished." In various forms the word "perish" appears 152 times in the KJV. In the Old Testament, there are 11 Hebrew words which are translated as "perish." The main word ahvad is the same word which is frequently translated as "destroy." We have already seen that it is erroneous to assume that ahvad means annihilation. Sha mad is found in Jer. 48:42 where Moab is said to be destroyed in the sense of the people being enslaved, not annihilated. Shah rhath is used of ruined girdles and vessels in Jer. 13:7; 18:4; kah rath is used of cutting a covenant or cutting timber to build the temple in Gen. 15:18; 1 Kings 5:6; eah vag. nah phal, and gah var are used to describe a miserable emotional state (Ps. 42:7; 55:4, 88:15,16). In the New Testament, there are ten different Greek words which are translated "perish." Some of these words such as apollumi were also translated as destroy and do not mean annihilation. Apothneesko is used in John 12:24 to describe the grain of wheat which when planted "dies" and then sprouts. Obviously, it cannot mean annihilation. Aphanrzo refers to things which moths and rust can "corrupt" (Matt. 6:19,20). Kataphthiro is used to describe "corrupt" minds in 2 Tim. 3:8 (KJV). Even in English we speak of fruit as "perishable" in the sense that it can spoil. Burned out light bulbs have "perished." In neither case is annihilation intended. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)
3. "Consume" or "consumed.": Forms of these words appear in the KJV 162 times. In the Old Testament, 20 different Hebrew words are translated as "consume." The usual word, ah chal is also used in Ps. 78:45 where the psalmist says that the flies "devoured" or consumed the Egyptians. The psalmist surely means that the flies tormented them, not annihilated them. Jeremiah used another word, bah lah, in Lam. 3:4, saying that his flesh and skin were "made old," or consumed, i.e., he was consumed with grief, not annihilated. Kah lah is used in Ezek. 13:13 where hailstones "consumed" a wall, i.e., knocked it down, not annihilated it. Dah gach is the normal word for putting out a fire. When we "put out a candle," we do not annihilate the candle. Even in English we speak of people being consumed with "grief, greed or lust," yet we do not mean that the person has ceased to exist. We have demonstrated that the annihilationists are in error when they arbitrarily assume and then assert that such words as "perish" necessarily mean annihilation. Once this point is granted, one is no longer impressed by such works as Froom where hundreds of quotes from biblical and extra-biblical literature are given to prove conditionalism simply upon the erroneous assumption that the mere presence of such words in the text means that the authors believed in annihilationism. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:23 am
|
|
|
|
Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is eternal conscious torment a pagan false doctrine and a Jewish fable?
Here we document that annihilationists all accept that the view we have proven true, namely eternal conscious torment, was widely believed in the ancient world. They argue that Jesus borrowed from these false pagan doctrines in his teaching on hell. We reject this, as it would mean that Jesus promoted false doctrine. As the spiritual eyes into the spirit world, we believe that Jesus' teaching on eternal conscious torment is not untrue, simply because other cultures had similar views!
Introductory comment:
To think that Christ was ignorant of what Gehenna meant to the common people of His day or to assume that He was mistaken in using the rabbinic descriptions of Gehenna is to do great injustice to Him who was the greatest teacher who ever lived. Indeed, the mere fact that Christ utilized the rabbinic language connected with Gehenna, such as "unquenchable fire" and "never- dying worms," demonstrates beyond all doubt to any reasonable person that he deliberately used the word Gehenna to impress upon his hearers that eternal punishment awaits the wicked after the resurrection. No other conclusion is possible.
The greatest problem that Annihilationists face when examining the intertestamental (between the Old & New Testaments) literature, is that the doctrines of the existence of the soul after death and eternal punishing are often manifest, with no "introduction" as would be required by a "new teaching." The Annihilationist view is that between the Old and New Testaments, Platonic philosophy infiltrated true Bible doctrine and entirely new concepts were introduced to replace the old beliefs about the soul and punishment. Yet, strangely lacking are any evidences of controversy in this area of belief. The Annihilationist answer to that would be that there was evidence of a difference of belief in the intertestamental writings. But since they can produce no actual apologetic or actual conflict from the historical records, they must argue from the silence of some intertestamental writers, who may discuss the future of the righteous without mentioning the wicked. Sometimes, as in the case of Fudge's and the Adventist Froom's quoting from Tobit, where it says that the unrighteous shall cease from all the earth, they claim that that proves the writer did not believe in eternal punishing. That is indeed a poor argument.
Robert Morey, Dualist, comments:
First, Gehenna is the place of judgement (Matt. 23:33). He even used the rabbinic expression, "the judgement of Gehenna" (Bab. Tal. ER126).
Second, Gehenna is always placed at the end of the world after the resurrection (Matt. 5:22; 23:33). This was expounded by John in Rev. 20:1-15. This was also the rabbinic position (Mid. Gen. 159).
Third, Gehenna is the place where the body as well as the soul is punished [Matt. 5:22; 10:28; Mark 9:43-48]. The rabbis saw that the resurrection of the wicked was necessary in order for them to receive their full punishment in the body (Mid. Gen. 159; 211n4).
Fourth, Gehenna was the place of conscious torment. When Christ used the phrases "unquenchable fire" and "never-dying worms" (Mark 9:47,48, author's paraphrase), He was utilizing biblical (Isa 66:24), apocryphal (Judith XVI:17), and talmudic (Mid. Gen. 214) images which all meant conscious suffering. The annihilationists have a counter argument at this point. They point out that, literally speaking, while the worms and the fire in a city dump may destroy a dead carcass, it cannot be said that the dead carcass feels any torment. Therefore, they conclude that Christ's language must be interpreted to mean that the wicked will be annihilated, not tormented. The problem with this interpretation is that it fails to take into account that when Christ spoke of Gehenna in such terms as "worms and fire," He was clearly using rabbinic phraseology. Thus, it is more crucial to discover how these words were understood in rabbinic literature than by pointing to modern city dumps. The intertestamental literature is clear that the Jews believed that the departed could feel what was happening to their dead body. Indeed, when the worms start gnawing on the body, "the worms are as painful to the dead as a needle in the flesh of the living" (Bab. Tal. Shah. 777,77 cool . Since the "gnawing worms" clearly meant conscious torment in rabbinic thought, the annihilationist's argument is invalid due to their ignorance of the meaning of such rabbinic terminology. That Judith XVI:17 also teaches conscious torment is clear.
Fifth, the wicked are cast into Gehenna and will remain there for all eternity (Matt. 5:29,30). In Gehenna, the wicked are "destroyed" [Matt. 10:28]. That the word "destroyed" (apollumi) does not mean "to annihilate" or "to pass into nonexistence" is clear from the rabbinic meaning of the word, the lexicographical significance of the word, and the way the word is used in the New Testament. Thaver's Greek-English Lexicon defines apollumi as "to be delivered up to eternal misery" (p.36). Since Thayer himself was a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition could only be the result of his knowledge of the meaning of his Greek word. There is no lexicographical evidence for the annihilationist's position that apollumi means "to annihilate" or "to pass into nonexistence." (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 89, 90)
Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist
Between the Testaments a tendency arose in Jewish literature to relate visions of last things to names and persons from the Old Testament. Armageddon, Jerusalem and the Garden of Eden all became stylized descriptions of things to come. So did the Valley of Hinnom-gehenna. The thought of Gehenna as a place of eschatological punishment appears in intertestamental literature shortly before 100 B.C., though the actual place is unnamed. It becomes "this accursed valley" (l En. 27:2, 3), the "station of vengeance" and "future torment" (2 Bar. 59:10, ll), the "pit of destruction" (Pirke Aboth 5:19), the "furnace of Gehenna" and "pit of torment" (4 Esd. 7:36). (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 161)
The Babylonian Talmud had the worst Jewish sinners sentenced to Gehenna for 12 months. Then "their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious." All who enter Gehenna come out, with three exceptions: those who committed adultery or shamed their neighbors or vilified them. In the end, God would take the sun from its case, and it would heal the pious and punish the sinners. There would be no Gehenna in the future world. ["Ge-hinnom," The Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. 5, cols. 581-583] Some rabbis were sympathetic; others were harsh. One can find quotes of torment by snow, smoke, thirst and rebellious animals. Others speak of the righteous observing the torments of the damned, "tossing in their pain like the pieces of boiling meat in a cauldron." Still others, more benevolent, said light flooded even Gehenna each Sabbath, and the wicked, too, had a day of rest. On the duration of the punishment, the rabbis contradicted each other. Some believed that the pain would continue forever with or without Gehenna, while others ended punishment with the last judgement. Whether this last view allowed a future life for the wicked or looked for their total annihilation cannot be determined conclusively. (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 163)
Link
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:03 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:46 am
|
|
|
|
Aoife Whoa, what a lot to read! I was having a bit of trouble in parts distinguishing who was taking what side they way it was laid out, but that could be because it's almost 3 am and I am sleepy! I remember when I first discovered something that now seems so basic... Satan doesn't rule hell. Ya know, you grow up seeing the God or an angel on one shoulder telling you to be good, and the devil on another shoulder telling you to be naughty... You see the comic strips of God in heaven and Satan in hell directing his demons... it kinda leaves the impression they both have dominion over their own places, doesn't it? While I was reading the Bible about 5 years after I'd been saved though, it suddenly hit me...God is in charge of BOTH heaven and hell. Satan will be tormented there with those who join him, not in charge of tormenting those with him in hell. It was such a "duh!" moment and at the same time such a revelation to me! HOW in the world had I missed this before? I remember sharing it with other people though and it was news to several of them as well, it just wasn't one of those things we'd thought about. xd
Simply put Hell is eternal, never ending, conscious torment. Designed for the Devil and his angels, but those who reject God will also end up there. That is pretty much the conclusion. =)
Haha. I know. I used to think the same thing. Much thanks to Dante's Inferno.
I thought that the devil had his throne in the lowest level of hell, but there are no thrones in hell. There are no rulers, only prisoners. It seems to be a popular thought that God has placed the Devil in hell to torment man for their sins, and that with the help of his minions they punish on God's behalf. I've seen Simpson episodes where this has been portrayed. It isn't why there is a hell. Hell is there as a punishment for the fallen angels.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:11 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:59 am
|
|
|
|
real eyes realize This is incomplete. If we continue reading Revelation 20, v. 14 says Hell/Hades/Sheol/the grave (depending on your version) and death will be thrown into the lake of fire. The Grave/Hades contains paradise and hell which is what Luke 16:19-31 is talking about, separated by the chasm: Abraham's Bosom (paradise) on one side | Hell on the other. As you noted, this is pre-resurrection. The Grave will spit out all of its dead to be judged (Rev 20:13); Since both the righteous and the wicked will come out—at different times though (separated by the millenial reign; Rev 20:5-6)—the grave will no longer serve any purpose; it's the place where the dead wait for judgment day. What I'm not sure about is whether the wicked get an imperishable body, if so, that would definitely mean their torment is never-ending. But if the grave and death are thrown into the Lake of Fire, does that mean death continues to exist? (Rev 20:14) edit: death stops existing in the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:4), but if it still exists in the Lake of Fire, wouldn't that support annihilation?
I see what you mean. It is confusing... Being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)
I can't help but feel there is symbolism to the grave and death being thrown into the lake. If the grave is thrown into the lake could it be symbolic of rejection, and restoration of the pre-fall condition without sin and its effect, but in the lake of fire those that have their existence there will feel the results of their rejection? Death is a condition. A state.(forgive me if I am ranting)
Rev. 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
We know that the wicked who worshiped the beast will be tormented forever. Jesus also mentioned (actually he warned of hell numerous times) gnashing of teeth, and eternal torment. It seems to me that when the Bible is talking about Death being thrown into the lake it can't mean eternal annihilation...
Revelation 14:1
And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Another thing to note is that if the wicked simply is annihilated it isn't much to be saved from. Those that do not exist are unaware that they do not exist, and have no need of being saved. It is neither a torment or troublesome for someone not existing, to not exist. Not existing is not much of a punishment, and it hardly seems worth the trouble of warning someone about. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:51 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:53 am
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:21 pm
|
|
|
|
real eyes realize Yup, eternal torment makes more sense. Thinking of it as a "state", would you say the lake of fire "residents" live around the Holy City, tortured that they can't come inside? I'm referring to the sinners John described in Rev 22:15 (contrasted against v. 14). question Whereas the sinless are dwelling inside with him, face to face, the ones outside are not. But everyone at this point is immortal.
From what I gathered the lake of fire is an actual lake, it is located somewhere were we will be able to see it (outside of New Jerusalem?), and those that are in it.
Isaiah 66:23-24
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, says the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the corpses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh.
I think that is part of their torment... Everyone in the lake will know why they are there, and the hopelessness of their situation. I personally think that is worse than the flames and the sulfur. To know that you have chosen to stay in the wretched condition you are in now, and to have to "live" with yourself, and that choice.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:30 pm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 4:38 pm
|
|
|
|
Garland-Green 911child From what i remember reading, Hell was originally made for Satan when he was thrown out of heaven. Hell wasnt originally for us, but Satan and his angels. But then Satan brought humans sin, to make sure he wasnt the only one to suffer in Hell. That, jealousy, and hatred towards God. Hell still isn't for people. sad People elect to go there. Free will and everything... God can't twist someones arms. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
