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 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:52 pm
Let us start with the very symbol of Christianity itself, the "cross."
The Cross:
It is well known that the first symbol of Christianity was that of a fish. On sacramental cups, seals, and lamps the Holy Spirit was symbolized by a dove and Christ by a fish (perhaps because at the time, fish was one of the elements of the sacred meal) or by a shepherd carrying a sheep on his shoulders (from Luke 15:3-7) The cross was not adopted until long after the departure of Jesus. One of the main reasons for this was the fact that he who dies on the cross is considered cursed by God (Galatians 3:13). Current historical knowledge recognizes the fact that the cross was well recognized as a religious symbol long before the advent of Jesus (pbuh). It was adored in India as the symbol of the Hindu god Agni, the "light of the world." It was placed in the hands of Siva, Brahma, Vishnu, Krishna, Tvashtri, and Jama. The cross was also well known among the Buddhists from ancient times and the followers of Lama of Thibet.
The ancient Egyptians also adopted the cross as a religious symbol of their pagan gods. Countless Egyptian drawings depict themselves holding crosses in their hands. Among them, the Egyptian savior Horus is depicted holding a cross in his hand. He is also depicted as an infant sitting on his mother's knee with a cross on the seat they occupy. The most common of the crosses used by these pagan Egyptians, the CRUX ANSATA, was later adopted by the Christians.
Fish: Symbol of last supper
The Egyptian savior, Osiris, the Egyptian god of the dead and the underworld, is sometimes represented holding out this cross to mortals signifying that this person has discarded mortality for the life to come.
Another cross has been unearthed in Ireland. It belongs to the cult of the Persian god of the sun "Mithra-Mithra-->" and bears a crucified effigy. The Greeks and Romans too adopted the cross as their religious symbol many centuries before Christianity did the same. An ancient inscription in Tessaly is accompanied by a Calvary cross. More crosses can be found to adorn the tomb of king Midas in Phrygia. The above references may be referred to for many more examples.
The "Trinity":
Now let us study the "Trinity" and it's roots in ancient pagan worship. The "Trinity" of Christendom, as defined in the creed of Nicea, is a merging of three distinct entities into one single entity, while remaining three distinct entities. We are told to speak of the three gods as one god, and never as three gods which would be considered heresy (Isaiah 43:10). They are considered to be co-eternal, co-substantial, and co-equal. However, only the first was self existent. The others preceded from the first. This Neo-Platonic philosophical doctrine has it's roots not in the inspiration of God, but in ancient paganism. Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Deities were always trinities of some kind or consisted of successive emanation in threes.
In India we find the doctrine of the divine trinity called "Tri-murti" (Three-forms) consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. It is an inseparable unity though three in form. Worshipers are told to worship them as one deity. Such concepts posed no problem to the logic of a Hindu worshipper since they were already used to worshipping gods with the body of a man and the head of an elephant (Ganesh), or monkey-faced gods (Hanuman), or gods with six arms, and so forth. Remember, classical Hinduism dates back to at least 500BC, with roots extending as far back as 2000BC.
The Brahmas also have their trinity. In their trinity, Vajrapani, Manjusri, and Avalokitesvara form a divine union of three gods into one god called "Buddha." The citizens of China and Japan also worship Buddha, but they know him as "Fo." When they worship him they say "Fo, is one god but has three forms."
Sir William Jones says:
"Very respectable natives have assured me, that one or two missionaries have been absurd enough to in their zeal for the conversion of the Gentiles, to urge that the Hindoos were even now almost Christians; because their Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesa (Siva), were no other than the Christian Trinity."
Bible myths and their parallels in other religions, p. 370.
The ancient Egyptians also worshipped a trinity. Their symbol of a wing, a globe, and a serpent is supposed to have stood for the different attributes of their god.
The Greeks also had their trinities. When making their sacrifices to their gods, they would sprinkle holy water on the altar three times, they would then sprinkle the people three times also. Frankincense was then taken with three fingers and strewed upon the alter three times. All of this was done because the oracle had proclaimed that all sacred things ought to be in threes. Remember that the philosophy of these people (The Greeks) is what was primarily responsible for defining the Christian "Trinitarian" nature of God. This was done through the writings of the Greek philosopher Plato regarding his "Logos" ("word"). Further, remember that the Gospels of the Bible were named the "Greek Gospels" for a reason: they were written in their language and based upon their philosophy (see chapter one).
As mentioned previously, T. W. Doane says:
"The works of Plato were extensively studied by the Church Fathers, one of whom joyfully recognizes in the great teacher, the schoolmaster who, in the fullness of time, was destined to educate the heathen for Christ, as Moses did the Jews. The celebrated passage : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God" is a fragment of some Pagan treatise on the Platonic philosophy, evidently written by Irenaeus. It is quoted by Amelius, a Pagan philosopher as strictly applicable to the Logos, or Mercury, the Word, apparently as an honorable testimony borne to the Pagan deity by a barbarian........We see then that the title "Word" or "Logos," being applied to Jesus, is another piece of Pagan amalgamation with Christianity. It did not receive its authorized Christian form until the middle of the second century after Christ. The ancient pagan Romans worshipped a Trinity. An oracle is said to have declared that there was 'First God, then the Word, and with them the Spirit'. Here we see the distinctly enumerated, God, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, in ancient Rome, where the most celebrated temple of this capital - that of Jupiter Capitolinus - was dedicated to three deities, which three deities were honored with joint worship."
Bible Myths and their parallels in other religions, pp. 375-376.
Trinities were not confined to these groups alone, but the Persians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Scandinavians, the Druids, the inhabitants of Siberia, the ancient Mexicans, the Peruvians, and many others, all worshipped "Trinitarian" pagan deities (among a great multitude of other gods) long before the council of Nicea of 325 C.E. officially recognized this to be God's "true" nature.
Christmas:
Let us now move on to the "birthday of Jesus," Christmas. Jesus (pbuh) is commonly considered to have been born on the 25th of December. However, it is common knowledge among Christian scholars that he was not born on this day. It is well known that the first Christian churches held their festival in May, April, or January. Scholars of the first two centuries C.E. even differ in which year he was born. Some believing that he was born fully twenty years before the current accepted date. So how was the 25th of December selected as the birthday of Jesus (pbuh)?
Grolier's encyclopedia says:
"Christmas is the feast of the birth of Jesus Christ, celebrated on December 25.... Despite the beliefs about Christ that the birth stories expressed, the church did not observe a festival for the celebration of the event until the 4th century.... since 274, under the emperor Aurelian, Rome had celebrated the feast of the "Invincible Sun" on December 25. In the Eastern Church, January 6, a day also associated with the winter solstice, was initially preferred. In course of time, however, the West added the Eastern date as the feast of the Epiphany, and the East added the Western date of Christmas."
So who else celebrated the 25th of December as the birth day of their gods before it was agreed upon as the birth day of Jesus (pbuh)? Well, there are the people of India who rejoice, decorate their houses with garlands, and give presents to their friends on this day. The people of China also celebrate this day and close their shops. The pagan god Buddha is believed to have been born on this day when the "Holy Ghost" descended on his virgin mother Maya. The great savior and god of the Persians, Mithras, is also believed to have been born on the 25th of December long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh). The Egyptians celebrated this day as the birth day of their great savior Horus, the Egyptian god of light and the son of the "virgin mother" and "queen of the heavens" Isis. Osiris, god of the dead and the underworld in Egypt, the son of "the holy virgin," again was believed to have been born on the 25th of December.
The Greeks celebrated the 25th of December as the birthday of Hercules, the son of the supreme god of the Greeks, Zeus, through the mortal woman Alcmene. Bacchus, the god of wine and revelry among the Romans (known among the Greeks as Dionysus) was also born on this day.
Adonis, revered as a "dying-and-rising god" among the Greeks, miraculously was also born on the 25th of December. His worshipers held him a yearly festival representing his death and resurrection, in midsummer. The ceremonies of his birth day are recorded to have taken place in the same cave in Bethlehem which is claimed to have been the birth place of Jesus (pbuh).
The Scandinavians celebrated the 25th of December as the birth day of their god Freyr, the son of their supreme god of the heavens, Odin.
The Romans observed this day as the birth day of the god of the sun, Natalis Solis Invicti ("Birthday of Sol the invincible"). There was great rejoicing and all shops were closed. There was illumination and public games. Presents were exchanged, and the slaves were indulged in great liberties. Remember, these are the same Romans who would later preside over the council of Nicea (325 C.E.) which lead to the official Christian recognition of the "Trinity" as the "true" nature of God, and the "fact" that Jesus (pbuh) was born on the 25th of December too. The pagan emperor Constantine, who presided over the council of Nicea, was popularly considered the "embodiment" or "incarnation" of the this supreme Roman "Sun" god. Neither was Constantine the first Roman emperor to be given this title, rather, many or his predecessors before him were also promoted to the status of the "incarnation" of the god of the sun.
Edward Gibbon says:
"The Roman Christians, ignorant of his (Christ's) birth, fixed the solemn festival to the 25th of December, the Brumalia, or Winter Solstice, when the Pagans annually celebrated the birth of Sol"
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. ii, Gibbon, p. 383.
Christmas festivals today incorporate many other pagan customs, such as the use of holly, mistletoe, Yule logs, and wassail bowls. The Christmas tree itself is the most obvious aspect of ancient pagan celebrations which were later incorporated into church rites. Scholars believe that the Christian celebration was originally derived in part from rites held by pre-Christian Germanic and Celtic peoples to celebrate the winter solstice. The Christmas tree, an evergreen trimmed with lights and other decorations, because it keeps its green needles throughout the winter months, was believed by pre-Christian pagans to have special powers of protection against the forces of nature and evil spirits. The end of December marked the onset of a visible lengthening of daylight hours - the return of warmth and light and defeat of those evil forces of cold and darkness. The Christmas tree is derived from the so-called paradise tree, symbolizing Eden, of German mystery plays. The use of a Christmas tree began early in the 17th century, in Strasbourg, France, spreading from there through Germany, into northern Europe and Great Britain, and then on to the United States.
Christmas is not the only Christian festival which was borrowed from ancient paganism and foisted upon the religion of Jesus (pbuh). There is also Easter (see details in chapter one), the Feast of St. John, the Holy communion, the Annunciation of the virgin, the assumption of the virgin, and many others have their roots in ancient pagan worship. Since we can not get into the details here, therefore, the interested reader is encouraged to consult the above books.
Many people object to people who advise them not to introduce new and innovative practices into their religion, even if they were only to be festivals and celebrations. They object "what could it hurt if I were to worship God and thank Him for his blessings on this day when pagans performed their worship? I am not worshipping idols." For this we only need to read the very explicit prohibition of God in this regard which He Himself emphatically declared in the Bible:
"Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them (pagans), after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise."
Deuteronomy 12:30
There is a good reason why God commands us to do things. Just because we do not know the wisdom behind a prohibition does not give us the freedom to disregard it. Indeed, it is exactly such willingness to "adapt" and "compromise" which eventually lead to the loss of the message of Jesus, as seen chapter one.
General Similarities with Paganism
As we have seen, the common thread among most of these pagan sects is their worship of the sun as their deity and their selection of the winter solstice (25th of December) as the time of the birth of their supreme god. The winter solstice is the time of year when the sun would reach it's last stage of decline and once again begin to rise and become "re-born." This rise would continue until day and night become equal in length. At this point, the god of the sun would appear to be at a stand off with the "prince of darkness." This would occur at the vernal equinox, or Easter. This situation, however, would not last for long, as the god of the sun would triumph after Easter, and days would become longer than nights.
We notice that the church too received divine "inspiration" that Jesus (pbuh) was born on the 25th of December, and also that he too "triumphed over the prince of darkness" on Easter day, just as the pagan gods of the Greeks and Romans had done centuries before. Let us have a brief look at the popular beliefs of the pagan Gentiles who would later take it upon themselves to spread "Jesus'" religion to the world:
Attis:
The pagan god Attis was the son of the virgin Nana. He was the "savior" and "only begotten son." His blood was believed to have renewed the fertility of the earth. As such, he was a symbol of immortality. He was believed to have died on March 24th and been resurrected shortly thereafter. Sacramental meals and baptism of blood were features of his church.
Adonis or Tammuz:
He was born of a virgin and was the "savior" of Syria. He died in redemption for mankind and was later resurrected in the spring.
Dionysus or Bacchus:
He was the "only begotten son" of Jupiter, the king of the gods of the Romans and the lord of life and death (For the Greeks, his father was the almighty Zeus). He was named the god of wine and revelry. Dionysus died at the hands of the Titans, who tore him apart, roasted the pieces, and began to eat them. At that point Zeus intervened, saved some of the pieces, and had Apollo bury them at Delphi. There, it was believed, Dionysus arose from the dead He said to mankind "It is I who guide you; it is I who protect you, and who save you; I am Alpha and Omega." He was slain for redeeming humanity and was called "the slain one," "the sin bearer," and "the redeemer." In celebrating his festival, his worshippers would observe the sparagmos: the tearing apart of a live animal, the eating of its flesh, and the drinking of its blood; participants believed they were in fact partaking of the god's body and blood. Plays were also staged at these festivals. Wine had a central place at his festivals. Does any of this sound familiar?
Bel or Baal:
He was the sun god of Babylon. The story of his life and his passion play bears a tremendous resemblance to that given to Jesus (pbuh) in our current Gospels. Called the lord of the universe, he was killed by monsters but restored to life. His death and resurrection were celebrated annually as a part of Canaanite fertility rituals.
Osiris:
He was the Egyptian's god of the dead and the underworld, born of the "virgin of the world" on the 29th of December. He preached gentleness and peace. Wine and corn were both his discoveries. He was betrayed by Typhen, slain and dismembered. He remained in hell for two or three days and three nights. He would be the judge of mankind in a future life.
Mithras or Mithra
He was the sun god of the Persians and the son of a virgin. He was born on the 25th of December. Christmas and Easter were two of the most important festivals of his church. His worshipers observed baptism, confirmation, and Eucharist supper at which time they would partake of their "god" in the form of bread and wine.
Krishna:
The Indian god Krishna too bears a tremendous resemblance to Jesus (pbuh) in the story of his mission and his divinity. He was the incarnation of the Indian's supreme god Vishnu (the preserver and protector of the world) in the womb of Devaki. Upon his birth, a great chorus of angles proclaimed "In the delivery of this favored woman, nature shall have cause to exalt." His birth was indicated by a star in heaven. Although of royal blood, he was born in a cave. He was presented with gifts of sandalwood and perfumes. His foster father was told to flee and hide him lest king Kansa might take his life. King Kansa had ordered all male infants born on that night to be slain. One of his first miracles was the healing of a leper. He was later slain and this resulted in an eclipse of the sun and a black circle forming around the moon. Spirits were seen on all sides and he descended into hell, rose again, and ascended into heaven with many people being witnesses to his bodily accent. He will have a "second coming" in the future which his followers continue await. There are countless other similarities with what is known today as "Christianity" even though his religion was well establish centuries before the birth of Jesus (pbuh). The accounts of Krishna's childhood agree quite closely with the apocryphal accounts of Jesus' childhood. In the ancient epic poems, Krishna is simply regarded as a great hero, it was not until about the 4th century BC that he was elevated to the position of a god.
Buddha:
Both books mentioned above have compiled a very detailed comparison of the legends of both Jesus (pbuh) and Buddha. The similarities are astounding. T.W. Doane has gone so far as to dedicate an entire chapter to this comparison, including a 48 point side-by-side narration from the time of their birth till the end of their lives on earth. Their conception, birth, mission, miracles, temptation, preaching, worship, prophesies, death, ascension, divinity, judgment of mankind, and many other matters are almost word-for-word exact copies of one another. Dr. Ansari records in his book the following words of the eminent Christian scholar S. M. Melamed:
"Yet the fact remains that Buddhist canons were already known to the Western world before the coming of Jesus. Today hardly any Indologist of note denies the organic connection between the two redemptive religions. So close is the connection between them that even the details of the miracles recorded between Buddhism and Christianity are the same. Of Buddha, too, it was told that he fed five hundred men with one loaf of bread, that he cured lepers and caused the blind to see."
As far back as 1884, a German historian of religion by the name of Rudolph Seydel published a very detailed study demonstrating that all of the tales, miracles, similes, and proverbs of the Christian Bible have their counterparts in the much more ancient Buddhastic gospel.
The author of "Bible Myths" observes that even though Buddha has been elevated today to the position of God, still, Mr. Doane observes that
"There is no reason to believe that he ever arrogated to himself any higher authority than that of a teacher of religion, but as in modern factions, there were readily found among his followers those who carried his peculiar tenets much further than their founder. These, not content with lauding during his life-time the noble deeds of their teacher, exalted him, within a quarter of a century after his death to a place among their deities - worshipping as a god one they had known only as a simple hearted, earnest, truth-seeking philanthropist."
Once again, this conforms exactly to the claim of the Qur'an that God was selecting prophets from every nation on earth (not just the Jews) and sending them to their people (and only to their people) to return them to the true worship of God alone, and that after their departure, their followers would not be content with themselves until they had managed to totally corrupt what their prophet had come to preach to them and even to go so far as to make this prophet himself the object of their pagan worship (see the Qur'an, Fatir (35):24).
Does this mean that Buddha was a true prophet of God? Only God Almighty Himself knows the answer to that question. However, it does appear that there at least exists the possibility that he might have been one of those many thousands of prophets and that his message may have started out as a true message of God which was later changed by mankind.
We have already seen in chapter one how Christian scholars today readily recognize the fact that for the first three decades C.E., "Christianity" remained a sect within Judaism and that the first fifteen Bishops of Christianity were circumcised Jews who worshipped in the synagogues of the Jews. We have seen how it was only after the introduction of Christianity to the Romans and the official "guardianship" of the Roman empire of the religion of Jesus (pbuh) that it began to see many of the "truths" of the mission of Jesus (pbuh) which were hidden from the very first apostles of Jesus (pbuh). We have seen how the "Trinity," the birth of Jesus (pbuh) on the 25th of December, the Easter festival and many other founding doctrines of Christianity were not recognized to be the "truth" until after the religion of Jesus (pbuh) was adopted by those people who for many centuries before that had been spoon fed the doctrines of "Trinity," "savior from sin," "incarnation of the Almighty," "death and resurrection," Christmas and Easter, "three days and three nights in hell," "only begotten of the almighty," "killed by the enemy," and many other matters which were later "inspired" to them by God in order to be "clarified" in the Bible so that they could be seen clearly.
Sadly enough, once all of this detailed evidence has been presented by Western scholars in support of the fact that all of these matters were acts of pagan worship and belief centuries before the coming of Jesus (pbuh), even with all of this, the adamant orthodox will ever manage to find a way out. "It is quite simple really," they will explain, "All of these countless pagan cults from all over the earth must have had prior knowledge of the coming of Jesus and inserted the story of his life into pagan mythology centuries before his actual arrival."
The great and elect messenger of Allah, Jesus the son of Mary (peace be upon them both), is innocent of these pagan innovations which have been foisted upon him after his departure by those who did not fear God. He was a true messenger of God and would never dare to say otherwise. God is One. Period!. He is indivisible and inseparable. There is no God but He. He has no sons nor any equal. He does not hold mankind responsible for the sin of others, but only for their own worship. And God alone shall be the final judge of all of mankind on the Day of Judgment.
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:26 pm
Ankh is not the same as a cross. Last time I checked crosses didn't have loops at the top. And where did you get this: Quote: The Egyptian savior, Osiris Quote: Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Deities were always trinities of some kind or consisted of successive emanation in threes. Really? Quote: The ancient Egyptians also worshipped a trinity. Their symbol of a wing, a globe, and a serpent is supposed to have stood for the different attributes of their god. Source? Quote: The Egyptians celebrated this day as the birth day of their great savior Horus, the Egyptian god of light and the son of the "virgin mother" and "queen of the heavens" Isis. Don't even know where to begin telling you how wrong this is. Quote: Osiris, god of the dead and the underworld in Egypt, the son of "the holy virgin," again was believed to have been born on the 25th of December. No. Just no. His birth was celebrated July/August. Quote: Osiris: He was the Egyptian's god of the dead and the underworld, born of the "virgin of the world" on the 29th of December. He preached gentleness and peace. Wine and corn were both his discoveries. He was betrayed by Typhen, slain and dismembered. He remained in hell for two or three days and three nights. He would be the judge of mankind in a future life. Who's this "virgin of the world"? And I already touched on His birthday. Ummm... Typhen? Who? And He did not remain in hell for two or three day and three nights. They didn't believe in hell. And the duat is not hell. And no He is not the judge. Seriously, where did you get all this?
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:11 pm
If you think Dionysus was Zeus's only son you've never even glanced at a book of Classical mythology. Seriously, dude. Also Mithra and Mithras are different entities; that is to say, the Mithraic mysteries and the figure of Mithras differs markedly from the figure of Mithra in Zoroastrianism. Also, Mithraic mysteries took off around the same time Christianity was being developed; they were contemporaries, and if anything they probably stole from one another rather than Christianity just stealing from the Mithrans. The 25th of Dec was a general festival of the unconquerable sun and not special or particular to the Mithrans, according Clauss. "Clauss states: "the Mithraic Mysteries had no public ceremonies of its own. The festival of natalis Invicti, held on 25 December, was a general festival of the Sun, and by no means specific to the Mysteries of Mithras." *Buddha is not a "Pagan god". Where are you getting all these ideas that various gods were born on Dec 25th? Seriously, citations please, because it looks like you're making it up. Freyr's birthday is not on the 25th. His birth was not celebrated on the 25th. Actually, nothing much was celebrated on the 25th. Depending on when you consider "mid winter" to be, it could have fallen during Yuletide, but it wasn't Freyr's birthday. Seriously, if you think Freyr is Odin's son, you REALLY have to start checking your sources. They're not even from the same tribal group of gods. They're not even slightly related. Njord is Freyr's father. Easter wasn't a Pagan holiday. The only thing vaguely Pagan about it is the name and cultural practices like the painting of eggs. The whole "Jesus died and rose again" thing - you know, the actual religious part of Easter - isn't part of a Pagan holiday. Funnily enough. And in non-Anglophone countries they don't even call it "Easter" so there's less confusion. If you're really interested in finding Paganism in Abrahamic religion, you should look into the origins of YHWH and his links to El, Asherah and Caananite religion. I quite liked the BBC documentary " Did god have a wife?"; you'll have to draw your own conclusions. You forget that the early Christians were persecuted and killed. If they wanted to celebrate the birth of their god on the same day everyone else was running around celebrating Saturnalia, so that people don't get suspicious and start nailing them to bits of wood, well, what's the issue? The point for them is celebrating the birth of Jesus. When that takes place is sort of irrelevant; it's Christ's Mass, and doesn't have to be held on his actual birthday to be important to them. I don't see a problem in deciding to hold a holiday when other people are celebrating theirs, anyway. People retain their cultural elements of celebration when they convert. Honestly if they hadn't done, Christianity probably wouldn't have spread so far as it did, and become so popular. People really hung onto those cultural elements. It's their inheritance, and they're welcome to it. It's hilarious that you have a section headed "General Similarities with Paganism" as if Paganism was one thing. Many Pagan religions don't have much at all in common with each other, let alone with Christianity. A lot of Pagan religions have a sun god or sun goddess, but this entity isn't always a focus of much worship. December 25th is not the Winter Solstice; that falls between the 20th and the 22nd of December depending on your location and the year. The Vernal Equinox is not Easter; Easter in fact falls after the next full moon post-Equinox, which can fall nearly a month afterwards. Easter is celebrated based on the timing of Passover and a Hebrew calendar. A lot of the gods you've said are born on December 25th have nothing to do with the sun (and aren't born on December 25th). Would you like to list gods you think are princes of darkness also? Could you list the myths wherein these gods of the sun face off against these princes of darkness on the vernal equinox? I really can't think of a single one. Are you ignoring things like the Eleusinian Mysteries because they don't fit your thesis? You keep using the word "Pagan" as if it is an insult. I, for one, an offended, and request an apology for this tone. It is inappropriate in a guild of this nature. "There is no Goddess but Goddess and She is Your Goddess. There is no Movement but The Erisian Movement and it is The Erisian Movement." (See? Other people can do that too! Magic how it instantly makes it the case and removes all alternative ideas.)
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:15 pm
Personally I'd like to say I'm glad to have some pagans around to help set things straight in that area. We need as diverse a group as we can get if we want to have a proper understanding on how most religions work.
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:16 pm
Kusugari Personally I'd like to say I'm glad to have some pagans around to help set things straight in that area. We need as diverse a group as we can get if we want to have a proper understanding on how most religions work. *fist-bump* cool
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:05 am
I'm pretty sure he means Set. Typhon was a Greek entity. Last son of Gaia and father of all monsters. He tried to kill Zeus for imprisoning the Titans and managed to tear out his sinews (which were later returned by Hermes). Medieval and Romantic era scholars had a tendency to equate him with Set and use the names interchangeably. They just thought those Romans and Greeks had much cooler names for things. And wow, was Osiris's mom not a virgin. In the version I'm used to wasn't she pregnant by three different Gods simultaneously? San pretty much got all my points for the Norse/Germanic stuff. And some I missed because my eyes started to glaze over reading all that drivel. Quote: Trinities were not confined to these groups alone, but the Persians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Scandinavians, the Druids, the inhabitants of Siberia, the ancient Mexicans, the Peruvians, and many others, all worshipped "Trinitarian" pagan deities (among a great multitude of other gods) long before the council of Nicea of 325 C.E. officially recognized this to be God's "true" nature. And I'd really like to see an actual list of the supposed "trinitarian" Gods present in all of these cultures and faiths. Also, ancient Mexicans? You mean the Olmec, the Maya, and the Aztecs? They generally called Mesoamerican, not "ancient Mexicans".
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:13 am
CalledTheRaven I'm pretty sure he means Set. Typhon was a Greek entity. Last son of Gaia and father of all monsters. He tried to kill Zeus for imprisoning the Titans and managed to tear out his sinews (which were later returned by Hermes). Medieval and Romantic era scholars had a tendency to equate him with Set and use the names interchangeably. They just thought those Romans and Greeks had much cooler names for things. Didn't know that they were used interchangeably. Quote: And wow, was Osiris's mom not a virgin. In the version I'm used to wasn't she pregnant by three different Gods simultaneously? If She was I haven't heard that version. The version I know was that Nut gave birth to Ra but Ra got angry that Nut was still with Geb even though She was supposed to be with Him.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:34 am
So this is Plutarch's version I'm familiar with so it's a bit Greekified but here it is (severely truncated).
Ra was pissed that Nut was still sleeping with Geb so her cursed her that she couldn't give birth the the child (or rather children) she carried on any day in the year. She went to Thoth for help and, through some clever shenanigans with the moon, he added five days to the usual 360 day calendar that existed outside of the regular year (it's a leap week!). Over the course of those five days she gave birth to five children. Osiris and Horus the Elder (who is really only in this version and is apparently a counterpart of Apollo) were fathered by Ra, Set and Nephthys were fathered by Geb, and Isis, the clever one, was fathered by Thoth "the most intelligent of the gods". Set also rather literally cut in line. Rather then waiting to be born in turn, he cut his way out when he decided he was ready.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:36 am
You know, this guy is obviously quoting wholesale from a site or book since there are numerous references to chapters, pages, or previously mentioned books that aren't actually in his post. I wonder if he's even bothered to read it all? Quote:
Attis:
The pagan god Attis was the son of the virgin Nana. He was the "savior" and "only begotten son." His blood was believed to have renewed the fertility of the earth. As such, he was a symbol of immortality. He was believed to have died on March 24th and been resurrected shortly thereafter. Sacramental meals and baptism of blood were features of his church.You know what else was a feature of his worship? Self castration! They also didn't eat pork but you wouldn't know anything about that would you. And did you know his earth Goddess consort was also sort of his father? Or that he was raised by a goat? Yep. That sounds a lot like Christianity right there. neutral I'd also love to see what rmcdra would make of all this.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:02 am
CalledTheRaven So this is Plutarch's version I'm familiar with so it's a bit Greekified but here it is (severely truncated). Ra was pissed that Nut was still sleeping with Geb so her cursed her that she couldn't give birth the the child (or rather children) she carried on any day in the year. She went to Thoth for help and, through some clever shenanigans with the moon, he added five days to the usual 360 day calendar that existed outside of the regular year (it's a leap week!). Over the course of those five days she gave birth to five children. Osiris and Horus the Elder (who is really only in this version and is apparently a counterpart of Apollo) were fathered by Ra, Set and Nephthys were fathered by Geb, and Isis, the clever one, was fathered by Thoth "the most intelligent of the gods". Set also rather literally cut in line. Rather then waiting to be born in turn, he cut his way out when he decided he was ready. Huh. May have to ask around and see if anyone else has heard that version. And Horus the Elder usually seems to be mixed with Isis's son. And it doesn't help that there are a few others that were translated to be Horus as well.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:12 pm
Looks like a copy pasta troll. Thanks for getting to all that.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:23 pm
I'll play. Khalid Ibn Walid It is well known that the first symbol of Christianity was that of a fish Actually, it isn't well known, and I think that you should provide a source. It is, after all, only fair. I'll agree it is a very early symbol, but you have it as the very first one. (Honestly curious to see where you got that from) Khalid Ibn Walid Christ by a fish (perhaps because at the time, fish was one of the elements of the sacred meal) You mean the Ichthus? (Greek: ΙΧΘΥΣ ) It's an acronym that stands for "Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr) which means "Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior." It's also the Greek word for fish. Cool, huh? Source.Quote: The cross was not adopted until long after the departure of Jesus. One of the main reasons for this was the fact that he who dies on the cross is considered cursed by God (Galatians 3:13) Here's something you want to consider before you go on about that. "At every forward step and movement, at every going in and out, when we put on our our clothes and shoes, when we bathe, when we sit at table, when we light the lamps, on couch, on seat, in all the ordinary actions of daily life, we trace upon the forehead the sign."That is from Tertullian (140-230 AD) clickWith a little meager inference, we can guess that quote was written down at around 170 AD or so. It sets up what seems to be the sign of the cross (and it is reasonable to assume so) as already being Christian tradition. As to Jesus taking a curse, well, that is one reason why we love him so much. He took what was rightfully ours so we didn't have to. Quote: Current historical knowledge recognizes the fact that the cross was well recognized as a religious symbol long before the advent of Jesus (pbuh). It was adored in India as the symbol of the Hindu god Agni, the "light of the world." It was placed in the hands of Siva, Brahma, Vishnu, Krishna, Tvashtri, and Jama. The cross was also well known among the Buddhists from ancient times and the followers of Lama of Thibet. That doesn't make it any less of a valid Christian symbol. I hate to use the Nazis as an example for anything ever, nor am I comparing anyone to them, but they used the swastika. Does that mean it has any less value as a Hindu religious symbol? No. No it doesn't. We use it because our God hung upon it. I wear one because Jesus called his followers to carry their crosses. I choose to do literally as a reminder that I am to do so metaphorically in laying down my life and my desires for my God. Quote: The ancient Egyptians also adopted the cross as a religious symbol of their pagan gods. Countless Egyptian drawings depict themselves holding crosses in their hands. Among them, the Egyptian savior Horus is depicted holding a cross in his hand. He is also depicted as an infant sitting on his mother's knee with a cross on the seat they occupy. The most common of the crosses used by these pagan Egyptians, the CRUX ANSATA, was later adopted by the Christians. I'll admit that I googled Crux Ansata. It looks a lot like an ankh than the Christian cross, but perhaps you'd clarify that for me with some sources or constructive dialogue. Quote: Another cross has been unearthed in Ireland. It belongs to the cult of the Persian god of the sun "Mithra-Mithra-->" and bears a crucified effigy. The Greeks and Romans too adopted the cross as their religious symbol many centuries before Christianity did the same. An ancient inscription in Tessaly is accompanied by a Calvary cross. More crosses can be found to adorn the tomb of king Midas in Phrygia. The above references may be referred to for many more examples. What you seem to be forgetting is that the Romans crucified almost everybody they could get their hands on. The ones they didn't kill, they sold to slavery. It is reasonable that many cultures facing that threat, like people near the Irish area were, would have an effigy of it. Also, I want you to source the Romans using the cross as a religious symbol. I studied the Romans for three years. Mostly it was their political and military history, with only enough religious study necessary to understand their politics. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure you can correct me on that. The Greeks? I can see it, with them being closer to Egypt, but chances are it would be the ankh if anything. Which is not the cross. The closest you'll get to it is the Old Coptic Cross, but I'd guess a Gnostic could help us there. Quote: We are told to speak of the three gods as one god, and never as three gods which would be considered heresy (Isaiah 43:10). “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (Isaiah 43:10 ESV) That is your verse that you quoted. It does not mean that the Trinity does not exist. It does mean that any gods besides that do not exist. I could go through a list of how many times Jesus claims to be God and Son of God. First, And the high priest stood up in the midst and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer to make? What is it that these men testify against you?” But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” (Mark 14:60-62 ESV) Second, Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:9-10 ESV) Quote: t. The others preceded from the first Not according to Christianity. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:1-5 ESV) The Word, of course, being Jesus. WAS God, IN THE BEGINNING with God. Quote: Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Deities were always trinities of some kind or consisted of successive emanation in threes. I double dog dare you to source that pagan deities were always trinities. Without even looking, I can bet $5 that a pagan on this forum is already all over this one. Quote: In India we find the doctrine of the divine trinity called "Tri-murti" (Three-forms) consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. It is an inseparable unity though three in form. Worshipers are told to worship them as one deity. Such concepts posed no problem to the logic of a Hindu worshipper since they were already used to worshipping gods with the body of a man and the head of an elephant (Ganesh), or monkey-faced gods (Hanuman), or gods with six arms, and so forth. Remember, classical Hinduism dates back to at least 500BC, with roots extending as far back as 2000BC. So other religions did have trinities or trinity like deities. That's good for them, I guess, but that doesn't mean Christians worship their God the way we do because the Hindu people or the Buddhists did it first. Also, the religion from which Christianity derives, Judaism, has roots back as far, if not farther, than Hinduism. Quote: Sir William Jones says: "Very respectable natives have assured me, that one or two missionaries have been absurd enough to in their zeal for the conversion of the Gentiles, to urge that the Hindoos were even now almost Christians; because their Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesa (Siva), were no other than the Christian Trinity." Bible myths and their parallels in other religions, p. 370. Finally, a source. It's cool that Sir Jones thinks what he does. However, when I look at that quote, I see little more than a form of universalism at best, and terrible Christian theology at the worst. Quote: The ancient Egyptians also worshipped a trinity. Their symbol of a wing, a globe, and a serpent is supposed to have stood for the different attributes of their god. Said by who? Also, "attributes of their god" doesn't mean that it is a deity, it only means that it is l ike a deity. For all I know, because you didn't source, you could be describing three objects that represent three characteristics of one god. Quote: Remember that the philosophy of these people (The Greeks) is what was primarily responsible for defining the Christian "Trinitarian" nature of God. Or, maybe early Christians listened to Jesus and read their early religious texts and thought "Wow! Jesus said that is is God, and is the Son of God, and we got this Holy Spirit thing that is also God!" Just a thought. Quote: Further, remember that the Gospels of the Bible were named the "Greek Gospels" for a reason: they were written in their language and based upon their philosophy (see chapter one). Don't forget Aramaic. But whatever. Quote: Jesus (pbuh) is commonly considered to have been born on the 25th of December. I've never met anyone more than five who believes this. Quote: It is well known that the first Christian churches held their festival in May, April, or January. Source, because that isn't well known. Quote: "Christmas is the feast of the birth of Jesus Christ, celebrated on December 25.... Despite the beliefs about Christ that the birth stories expressed, the church did not observe a festival for the celebration of the event until the 4th century.... since 274, under the emperor Aurelian, Rome had celebrated the feast of the "Invincible Sun" on December 25. In the Eastern Church, January 6, a day also associated with the winter solstice, was initially preferred. In course of time, however, the West added the Eastern date as the feast of the Epiphany, and the East added the Western date of Christmas." Was it right that that happened? Probably not. As far as d**k moves go for trying to convert people, this might be one of them. But that doesn't change the significance that we place on Christmas. whether it is his actual birthday or not. Nobody even cares about that, and fewer people actually believe Christmas is his birthday. It's the day we celebrate God's gift to us. That's it. I'm going to skip a lot because I don't have the patience to do your entire post. Quote: Bel or Baal: He was the sun god of Babylon. The story of his life and his passion play bears a tremendous resemblance to that given to Jesus (pbuh) in our current Gospels. Called the lord of the universe, he was killed by monsters but restored to life. His death and resurrection were celebrated annually as a part of Canaanite fertility rituals And much of the Old Testament is about how angry God was at the Israelites when they followed Ba'al. It never once in the scriptures turned out good for them. Quote: Sadly enough, once all of this detailed evidence has been presented by Western scholars in support of the fact that all of these matters were acts of pagan worship and belief centuries before the coming of Jesus (pbuh), even with all of this, the adamant orthodox will ever manage to find a way out. "It is quite simple really," they will explain, "All of these countless pagan cults from all over the earth must have had prior knowledge of the coming of Jesus and inserted the story of his life into pagan mythology centuries before his actual arrival." Is that something Muslim scholars make up? Because I've never in all my time as a Christian or being around Christians heard that. Ever.
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