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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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 Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:31 pm
Alright, time for a guild wide debate.
Topic, stat systems. Do you like them? Dislike them? Why? Would you like it if POTS had a stat system?
For those who aren't aware of what a stat system is, it's very similar to a video game. As you level up you gain stat points, which can be placed in various stats. Usually these stats are Speed, Strength, Defense, Magic, and so on. These systems are usually based around word counting. Ex, 100 words = 1 stat point.
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:39 pm
Me, I love stat systems. When done right, they allow for extremely high levels of character customization. Where a guild without a system might have five or six different ranks for speed and such, a stat system allows your RPC to be completely focused on that one trait, or spread their stats out for a more general feel.
If POTS had a stat system, or any Naruto guild really, an RPC wouldn't be restricted to a single power level for so long like they are now. Their rank might be limited, but they still grow and gain power over time. With training, a genin could become as strong as a kage under a stat system. Of course, I wouldn't want to attach the stat system to everything in the guild. Learning rules would have to be kept as normal to prevent our kage level genin from wiping the floor with us using kage level techniques.
I've heard people claim, when a stat system was suggested here, that it would be a bad idea because it rewarded the active more than the inactive. Those that could post all day would become stronger faster than those that only get one once a week. My response, so what? Rewarding active members is what we do. Why would we want to make a system that rewards inactivity equally to activity? If an RPer is capable of staying online all day long and trains themselves to extreme levels, more power to them. It promotes activity, and it promotes growth as a writer, because people quickly realize longer and more detailed posts make them stronger faster than one liners.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:42 pm
* Insert F bomb here * No! I for one don't want to see the words " POTS " and " Stat system " in the same sentence unless it has a " Does not have/will never have a " in between them; and hopefully the first one will never change. I for one hate stat systems; it takes some of the Rp basis away making it close to impossible for someone to defeat someone of a higher rank by sheer Rp prowness, as it should be done, and by character make up. Not only that, but also it complicates things, AND it would need for the crew to keep their eye on every member of the guild to make sure that they aren't boosting their stats without the right word count or falsely boosting their stats with no work put on to it. Not only that but we'd also have to rework ALL of the bloodlines and clans to fit the stat system; to make the clans more meaning and to make them fit in to the system, example Hatake Clan: + 5 speed stat for just being in the clan, and so on and forth. The shinobi types would also have to be edited; and the professions, it would take too much work for one system. All in all a stat system would mean that we'd have to balance everything within the guild, and possibly remake other systems just so that they can fit into this unneeded system.
In my opinion, POTS doesn't need a stat system unless this system allows for one to grow and keep growing, making the user have something to do, give more meaning to actual training and pick up activity, which is the only thing that would allow help the guild, if and only if the system has no cap, or a HUGE cap that would make people strive to achieve it.
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:01 pm
Can we do stats by missions instead? I mean word counts are ok, but if you're just standing there talking and doing nothing, then it isn't very good to have a word count. Word count on mission posts would be really good.
Also, if we did do a stat system, would everyone have base stats to begin with, or could we use the dice function in our sandboxes? Basically, could we incorporate D&D basics into the guild? because then I'm all in favor of the system.
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:21 pm
~~~ Akura ~~~ POTS technically already has a stat system. If you just take all our various ranks and give them numbers, those are our stats. E - 1 D - 2 C - 3 And so on and so forth. Add in types that add +1 or -1, and you have stat customization. Include some of the newer systems that use half ranks, and you get even more numbers in between. E - 1 2 D - 3 4 C - 5 The only difference between POTS' ranking system and a stat system, is the level of customization of stats, and the inability to increase your stats over time. ~ With all that said, a stat system, when used properly by the player, actually makes it easier to defeat stronger enemies than it is now. In our current system, it is considered impossible for a genin to defeat a kage, simply due to the rank difference. Even if the genin is a vastly superior writer and strategist, even if their strategy could actually succeed, the kage is legitimately able to shrug off practically anything that genin does and pretty much godmod their way to victory. (Fun Fact: That is the only reason David didn't kill Koizumi even before the chuunin exams.) With a stat system allowing growth, the rank difference is meaningless. All that matters is the character's strength. Your RPC is focused on Taijutsu? You've probably poured all your points into speed strength and defense. You have a Rock Lee like dedication to training? You've undoubtedly pumped your stats to incredible levels even at genin rank. That ninjutsu focused kage better watch out, cause he probably forgot to pump his defense stats up. Your stats don't lock you in within a stat system like they do in a rank system, they just provide guidelines. The more dedicated RPer is going to get stronger, and the better writer is going to win more fights. Your mention of the stat system allowing a player to grow and keep growing is the very basis of any stat system, so I honestly don't understand quite why you're making that a requirement. It's the very basis of why I love stat systems in the first place. If we made one here, it'd probably need a cap, or levels at least, but that's another debate entirely. ~ The debate was meant to be on the virtues and flaws of a system rather than the technicalities of implementing it, but ok, I'll go there with you. Honestly, if everyone actually agreed that POTS needed a stat system, I would be able and willing to write up the entire system myself, probably in a single day. Yes, it would require changing a lot of other systems in the guild around, particularly those you mentioned. In fact, it would be the single largest overhaul in POTS history. However, I don't think it would be all that complicated to make the changes. The types would be fairly simple to do. The ones that add +1 rank, I'd probably rewrite to where one stat gained in that perimeter(Perimeters are the different stat types.) would count for two. On the other hand, a -1 would mean that you need two stat points to count for one. Bloodlines would face similar treatment. Probably exactly the same in fact, as well as professions. Some might want to be edited more, to make up for any extra stats we added that we don't normally use, but all in all, it wouldn't be too complicated to implement. Just tedious. Like moving a couple hundred threads in two days, but slightly less so because it would actually require the use of the brain. Keeping track of the stats would probably require us to take on a dedicated crew member who only works in the stat system. There are two ways to do it. One, allow everyone to update their own stats and just check them occasionally, like was done in L&L, or run all stat updates through a thread, having a crew member approve every single one. Personally I'd use the first. If a crew member checked everyone's stats say, once a month, it would be easy enough to crack down on any cheaters in the system. And if a punishment, say, cutting down the cheater's stats by the amount they falsely gained were implemented, the fear factor of getting caught would likely stop most from cheating in the first place. ~~~ Timmy ~~~ You bring up an issue I've always had with stat systems. The one big problem with them, is people who do nothing but chat with each other, then gain tons of stats for it. It wouldn't be too hard to make a stat system that relied upon certain actions to increase the stats. Each stat could have it's own training methods, and then missions could allow normal stat gain where you select where the points go yourself. Most stat systems when implemented give you a certain number of stats to start, which you allocate for yourself. I've never thought of dice rolling for them, but you could probably do that if you wanted. (Unless you're talking roll a die for each perimeter and that's your stat, which wouldn't work because you'd likely exceed your designated number of points.) I'd like to try D&D someday. RP with a DM sounds like great fun to me, but sadly, I've never had opportunity to try it. (Also, the number of rule books scares me.) ~~~ Unfortunately, in my eyes at any rate, a guild really needs to be built around a stat system. You can't efficiently build a stat system into an established guild without breaking a lot of stuff. ~
FEAR MY GIANT POSTS!
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:45 pm
In all my time as crew in various guilds, I've never seen a more abundant issue than that of which a stat system could easily solve. As much as people may hate it, RP fights are pretty much a game, and a game without rules is broken. Even if it comes down to something as simple as Str/Spd stats, it will make RP fights easier to hash out and will cut out "Oh, well I'm super fast...but I dont know how fast exactly." Without stats, people tend to god around the fight, dodging like there is no tomorrow because they are 'fast'. I've seen guilds use a simple 2 stat system all the way to a full, complex stat point buy system covering every aspect of the character. Either way, both were beneficial to the guild.
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:39 pm
I would like to see something that allows your Rpc to rank up in power, but not so much rank. Nothing like a gaint amount of posts and you are a god now, but still low ranked. But there were several instances in the show were lower "ranked" Ninja were able to pound higher ranked ninja by miles.
I am not really sure how it could be done well but it is something I would like to see.
@Akura: I do not agree that a stat system would stop lower ranked ninja to not be able to beat higher ranked one. If that were the case you would not be able to do it with POTS current stat system.
@Hinote: I do in fact fear your gaint posts.
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:21 pm
I personally don't dislike stat systems especially. However this is definitely something that should be decided as a guild, since it could very well be a life or death matter for the guild.
You know how I feel about introducing a lot of new things that need to be learned, so I don't think I need to expand on that here. (And i'm feeling lazy) However, there are certainly advantages as well as weaknesses. Below is my tally
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The Benefits
-Specialists can be more defined, you can have a taijutsu specialist, a genjutsu specialist, a defensive tank type specialist etc.
-Senior members of a rank are no longer "equal" in power with even the newest members of the same rank. A senior Chuunin could do more damage than a brand new Chuunin.
-Once people are used to and learn the system it would encourage more activity, since there is a clear and immediate reward to posting.
-Ranking up isn't just a random change in power instead being a smaller boost because of the gradual increas needed to rank up
-High level ranks, especially S-ranks would still have incentive to be active, at least untill they max their stats...
-would patch holes in our current systems much more seamlessly
-Most number systems could be replaced or simplified.
-It forces a lot of game mechanics that would need discussion
-If we are able to substantially simplify other systems then a stat system could actually make POTS easier to understand.
-We are already making changes and revamping current systems, so a complete overhaul would make more sense now in terms of simplicity. Releasing a massive system change only to release another one as soon as people get active would be messy.
Weaknesses
-Activity may go up, but interaction may not. spam posting will increase a lot, since you would need to train stats as well as jutsu.
-We would need to redo almost every other system we have. ranking, learning, possible even jutsu requirements (some might need higher skills, but this is not necessary)
-^That is a lot of work ^
- if a stat system will drive away rpers it will be the needle that broke the camel's back. Especially with new systems coming out already.
-The rules of POTS as a whole will change dramatically. Everyone will have to relearn, which even if it is simpler causes problems. For example the Metric system in the USA. It is far simpler, but because we would have to relearn how we measure everything noone wants to make the switch.
-It is risky.
-It forces a lot of game mechanics that would need discussion
-Many members come here because we don't have a stat system.
After making this list, I would say the benefits are certainly strong. However I will say again that we need POTS to have a bigger membership before we can attempt something as radical. However, this is certainly debatable.
I think if people can prove me wrong, and you can get a good showing in the poll in favor of stats, then I will back it, but that is such a massive factor that the short weakness list may actually outweigh the massive benefits list. Edit: @ Havik: Ranks need to have a maximum rank. However, perhaps that max could actually be slightly more than the next rank baseline. In that way, if a Chuunin only meets the baseline requirements a maxed Genin might still outpower him/her. This could prove interesting, but could also cause trouble. Either way, with a stat system I think there would be a certain amount of bonus points for ranking rather than an overall boost. There would probably be some sort of rule that at least two stats must exceed x to rank up or something. So it could be possible for someone to rank to Kage, and still be slower, have worst defensive ability etc. than someone one or even two ranks below. (These details would have to be discussed.)
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:09 am
Ok, again, If we were to use a word stat system, we'd have to have a universal word counter program. ( I doubt the crew wants to go through and count everything. ) Because I was in a guild once where the word counter a couple of the members were using counted spaces, so by double spacing, and using a slightly larger font, it was completely unnoticable, and doubled your word count, or if you had some semblance of intellect, you'd be capable of double spacing only a couple of times gaining ( dependent upon the size of the post ) anywhere from 10 to 50 extra words with almost no after thought.
Honestly, I like the thought of a Stat system, but could we have a sub system for jutsu? Because honestly if you are literally made to have complete mastery of one technique style, say Laxus - Raiton, I'd like to be capable of raising his Raiton value above most other people's.
Say people can use their +1 stat point to instead gain a whoppin' +2 to their jutsu techniques. Say that the sub category is ( We'll use Laxus as an example. ) Split up into three ( or more if you all can think of anything else ) different types of boost. like so.
Raiton -
Power: 20
Control: 20
Defence: 40 ( Should his bloodline be approved, the original value would be 20, but since it is doubled, it becomes 40, which while it might not be very much, Electric techniques could still harm him dependent upon the useage of it. )
Fuuton:
Power: 5
Control: 6
Defence: 5
Katon:
Power: 7
Control: 8
Defence: 7
( This is a MUCH larger Laxus than the current one, roughly around A rank I'd say. )
The power of the type could never out rank the control, because if you have more power than you can control, you end up probably blowing yourself up, or disintegrating yourself. This could also go for bloodline/ clan techniques as well. It would give a much larger variety of shinobi, and would allow me to have factual proof of Laxus's amazing raiton prowess. xD Granted things like Elemental control would confer about a +5 in all aspects of that jutsu type, and a -10 in all aspects of the weakness of that element. Ability control would confer a +10 to chosen ability, and a -4 to all other techniques. ( Taijutsu and weapon styles wouldn't belong within this system, unless you can figure out a way to cross them over. )
Just a suggestion, although I'd love to see it some day. =P Sorry for any typos I missed, my keyboard is acting up on me, and occasionally I'll skip a key in a word. Dx
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:05 am
Now this can be a major problem. Largely depending on the posters, because some people post more frequently than others and some are far more verbose than others. I once saw someone do over 400 words on falling down. Then again a stat system would allow greater flexibility on character creation and growth, but at the same time it can fail hardcore when people can spam massive posts and end up so overpowered that strategy and writing skill is again useless. Based on word count could pass or fail, again, depending on member activity and how far someone is willing to go to utterly out-rank everyone else.
I'd rather see a d20 point buy system.
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:17 am
In all honesty, a full blown stat system can be confusing. If your going to use stats for one thing, you'll have to do it for EVERYTHING. Trust me on this one, I've had the same problem in the guild I'm trying to revive. I think we should leave it as is and use the K.I.S.S. system. (Keep It Simple Stupid)
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:09 pm
I think the question here should be "What is our current system missing?", because it seems like most of the posts here are just small versions of different types of systems.
It just seems kinda pointless, like nothing worth changing is being brought up.
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:58 am
Anonymous_Alcoholic Now this can be a major problem. Largely depending on the posters, because some people post more frequently than others and some are far more verbose than others. I once saw someone do over 400 words on falling down. Then again a stat system would allow greater flexibility on character creation and growth, but at the same time it can fail hardcore when people can spam massive posts and end up so overpowered that strategy and writing skill is again useless. Based on word count could pass or fail, again, depending on member activity and how far someone is willing to go to utterly out-rank everyone else. Except shouldn't we encourage larger posts? Most of the time those are the best parts of RP to move story along and generally to work from for other rpers. However Wordcount is not needed, post count may still be functional if noone wants to make the switch, since posts aren't allowed to be one liners anyways. I think this would definitely be the area that most people will turn away in disgust, mostly because that's a lot of work tallying word counts. -X Duo Yiro X- In all honesty, a full blown stat system can be confusing. If your going to use stats for one thing, you'll have to do it for EVERYTHING. Trust me on this one, I've had the same problem in the guild I'm trying to revive. I think we should leave it as is and use the K.I.S.S. system. (Keep It Simple Stupid) That is also a bit of an advantage as well though. If every system is the same people only need to learn one and then how to apply it, rather than several different systems. However as I did state in the pro/con list this would certainly take a lot of work to do. -o-Havik-o- I think the question here should be "What is our current system missing?", because it seems like most of the posts here are just small versions of different types of systems.
It just seems kinda pointless, like nothing worth changing is being brought up. That is exactly what the suggestions thread is for, and you are more than free to make such a thread yourself for discussion. The crew would certainly value such input since we are going through and fixing old systems right now.
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:18 pm
Yes I understand what you mean. It would take a TON of work. Especially since this guild is already built up. If we would make this a stat based guild, I'd recommend not releasing anything until EVERYTHING is ready and tested. Testing the system would obviously drop most of the cons. It would also give you another 'check' on the system, making sure nothing was left dangling, but in all honestly I'm totally AGAINST it. Due to the fact that this guild is already way beyond the development stage. Again, K.I.S.S
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Hinote Tosatsu Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:11 pm
Please keep in mind that this is a thread about the pros and cons of a system, not an actual suggestion to implement one here. Much as I'd love to do it, it would indeed be a major change that would confuse and potentially scare a lot of members.
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