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Who is Satan, and are he and Lucifer the same?

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Pseudo-Onkelos

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:43 pm


1. An overview of שָׂטָן in the Tanakh.

The Hebrew word satan takes its time to appear in the Tanakh. It is first used in Numbers 22:22, and again in 22:32, and it is used with reference to the messenger of HaShem because He is obstructing Balaam's path. During the reign of King Saul, David is seen as satan to the Philistines because he could turn on them. (1 Sam. 29:4) It is also ascribed to the sons of Zeruiah, who wanted Shimei son of Gera to be put to death for cursing King David. (2 Sam. 19:22)

In 2 Samuel 24:1, it says that the anger of HaShem burned against Israel. Yet 1 Chronicles 21:1 says satan, "an adversary" in some translations, stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. It could have been a human adversary, or it could have simply been God if this is compared to Numbers 22:19. The idea of God being satan for most Christians might be avoided because of the negative connotations ascribed to Satan.

Moving on, when Solomon became king, it is said that God had given him rest from every side so that there was neither satan, nor evil. (1 Kings 5:4) Later, God raises up satan against King Solomon. These were Hadad the Edomite (11:14) and Rezon son of Eliadah. (v. 23) He remained as satan to Israel all the days when Solomon was king, just as Hadad did. And he loathed Israel while reigning Syria. (v. 25)

In Zechariah 3:1, 2, some English translations erroneously write "Satan". This is misleading and is probably translated this way for theological reasons. The problem with this is that the Hebrew does not write satan, but hasatan, "the adversary". Therefore, it is not a proper noun. Ha- is the definite article, which cannot come before a proper noun. For example, Abraham is a proper noun, so writing "the Abraham" is not permitted grammatically. Therefore, hasatan should not be translated "Satan".

In the context of Psalm 109:6 vesatan is used, not as a demon, but adversaries. (vv. 4, 20, 29) In Job, again, we have hasatan like there was in Zechariah 3:1, 2. He is the adversary, and he stands out from among the sons of God. (Job 1:6; 2:1) He acts as a divine prosecutor to test the faithfulness of Job. (1:9-11; 2:4, 5) Thus far, only in a few references has satan been used for divine beings, yet in no way were any used in the same sense as Satan as Christians understand him. He works for, and is not an enemy of, God.

2. Satan and the serpent. (Genesis 3)

There isn't much to cover here. The serpent is often ascribed as Satan in this chapter, but there is nothing to support this. Nowhere in the targums, nor The Antiquities of the Jews is there any mention of the serpent being Satan. This, of course, is not to say that the concept is of Christian origin. Consider the following.

Wisdom 2:23, 24
For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that hold of his side do find it.


This belief that the serpent was Satan was continued in Christian interpretation. (Rev. 12:9; 20:2) Beyond this, I do not know where the interpretation originated from, but this is a later understanding of Genesis 3. I shall not offer later interpretations to older texts because I aim to know what the text had originally meant.

3. Satan and Lucifer. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

The concept of Satan's fall is probably from Origen. It is curious if Origen was influenced by 1 Enoch and saw a parallel between it and this particular passage, and therefore made a connection. I shall not continue further with idle speculation. The word lucifer is of Latin origin. Therefore, it should not even be in the Tanakh to begin with. This is from the Vulgate, and it reads:

Isaiah 14:12, Vulgate
Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.


Other verses that use this Latin word are found below:

Job 11:17, Vulgate
Et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et c** te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer.


Job 38:32, Vulgate
Numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis.


To understand this passage, follow me. The taunt is directed to the king of Babylon (v. 4). The people of the earth rejoice at the fall of the king of Babylon (v. 8 ). In v. 9, She'ol is personified. By her yearning for the king of Babylon, she awakens the other dead kings of the nations. They mock this once great and powerful king, as if rhetorically asking, "Wert thou not mightier to escape death?" (v. 10)

In v. 11 the word "pomp" is from the Hebrew word gu'an. It is curious as if this is understood as a play on words because it is used not just for pride or arrogance, but also of majesty and excellence. Nevertheless, it was the king's pride that brought him low, and now the worms serve both as the king's bed and covering, both of which lack a state of luxury.

In v. 12, which says, "O Lucifer, son of the morning", should say, "Heylel, son of Shachar". Heylel, a minor god not found in Canaanite sources, was the son of Shachar, who is. He was the god of dawn. His twin, Shalim, was god of dusk. So Heylel may also be a Canaanite god. The concept of Satan in this verse is foreign to rabbinical interpretation, and Pseudo-Jonathan Targum writes:

Isaiah 14:12, TgPsJon
How art thou cast from on high, who wast shining among the sons of men as the star Venus among the stars: thou art dashed down to the earth, who wast a slaughter among the nations.


Venus was sometimes visible on the horizon at dawn. How shall one understand this? Liken the king of Babylon as planet Venus, and his reign like the brilliance of Venus. It is short-lived because when the Sun rises, Venus fades away. Therefore, the reign of the king of Babylon will be for a short time, and the light of Israel will outshine it and endure like the Sun.

Should this be understood as Satan, then who is Satan's father? It certainly cannot be Shachar. And when did Satan weaken the nations? It is never mentioned. Continuing, the king of Babylon is so pompous that he wishes to take his throne higher than the stars of El, that is, the sons of El, the most high God. His desire is to be lofty on the summit called Mount Zaphon so as to assert divinity. (v. 13, 14)

The king of Babylon will not achieve this, however, for he shall be cast down to She'ol, the place where the righteous and wicked dwell. (v. 15) I understand v. 16 to express that these witnesses are on Earth, not the underworld, and v. 19 seems to support this. He is referred to as "the man", meaning that he was not a spirit. This should cause doubt to those who understand this to mean Satan.

Satan also never caused the inhabitants of Earth to tremble, and the kingdoms to shake. Instead, it was the king of Babylon, who was cast out of his tomb, and like a corpse trampled underfoot, he is condemned to the most miserable part of the underworld, because he was not given a proper burial. (v. 19ff)

4. Satan and the garden of Eden. (Ezekiel 28:12-15)

Shall this understanding be ascribed to Origen as well? Ironically, for a man of allegory, he took this quite literally with its use of the imagery. The denunciation actually begins in chapter 26, but I will focus only on chapter 28. In v. 2 it tells the reader the son of man, a title given to Ezekiel, to say these things to the prince or ruler of Tyre. Just as we had the king of Babylon is Isaiah 14:3, so we have the ruler of Tyre here.

According to the denunciation, the ruler of Tyre claims to be a god, whose desire is to be enthroned on the seat of God in the midst of the sea. This metonymy is used elsewhere in Ezekiel (27:4, 25-27; 28:8 ), as well as other places in the Tanakh (Exod. 15:8; Jonah 2:3; Psa. 46:2). The metonymy "heart of the seas" works well with the metaphors of Tyre being a prominent ship. (27:3-9)

The ruler of Tyre is asked by the son of man, "Are you wiser than Daniel?" (v. 28:3) This verse is presented as a question in some translations, while not so in others. Even though it should be "Danel", whoever Danel may be, the prophet Daniel would also make sense here. Daniel was the opposite of the ruler of Tyre because he acknowledged that "wisdom and power" was given to him from God. (Dan. 2:23) Rashi comments:

[As for] Daniel Nebuchadnezzar came to make him a god (Dan. 2:46): “and prostrated himself before Daniel, and ordered that they should offer a meal offering and sacrifices of sweet odors to him,” but he did not accept it upon himself, yet you make yourself a god?

The ruler of Tyre is further mocked because supposedly no secret is hidden from. He became very wealthy, and as a result his heart has grown proud. He thinks he possesses the heart of God. (The heart was thought to be the seat of reason to ancient people.) God will send foreigners, the Chaldeans who were not found to be traders with Tyre (Ezek. 27:7-23), for otherwise they might have been hesitant to attack. Now they will thrust him down to the pit.

Shachat is translated "pit". It appears to suggest corruption or destruction (cf. Psa. 55:23; 103:4; 2 Chron. 26:16). The imagery of dying "a violent death in the heart of the seas" may be understood as being defeated in a sea fight. In the hands of the Chaldeans, the ruler of Tyre will realize that he is a man, not a god. He will die in the hands of the uncircumcised. This is thought to be worse than dying in the hands of the circumcised. (cf. 1 Sam. 31:4)

There is now a change of words in v. 11. Instead of "ruler," the word "king" is used. Take note, also, that this lament is directed to the "king of Tyre". A human figure is still in mind and not Satan before his fall. The ArtScroll translation translates it,

Ezekiel 28:15, ArtScroll
Are you [Adam] the culmination of perfection, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty?


In vv. 13 and 15 seem to suggest Adam, the primeval man. So it has nothing to do with Satan, but with Adam. Adam fits a better description because he is seen as a priest, if not a royal figure. Therefore, the king of Tyre is being represented as such. The king of Tyre is not in the garden of Eden, but "thou delightest thyself with plenty of all good things and delectable ones, as if thou dwellest in the garden of God". (Rashi)

The Tyrian king is adorn with "every precious stone" (v. 13). These precious stones correspond to the stones placed on the breastplate for the high priest (cf. Exod. 28:17-20). Other stones are omitted, but have been supplied in the Septuagint. In v. 14, the king of Tyre is called a guardian cherub. This likely alludes to Exodus 25:20, where the cherub are covering the mercy seat with their wings. The same word for "cover[ing]" in v. 14 is also used here in Exodus 25:20.

The king of Tyre is said to have been on the holy mountain of God. Some have taken this literally, thinking that the cherub who covers was in God's heavenly abode. However, this is the wrong idea. There are places in the Tanakh where "the mountain of God" is mentioned (Gen. 22:14; Exod. 3:1; 4:27; 18:5, et al.), and they're not in heaven.

In v. 15, this makes more sense if attributed to Adam, the first man, not an angel in heaven named Lucifer. (cf. Eccl. 7:29) Like Adam, whose sin was pride, so too is the king of Tyre's (v. 16). Thus far, the concept of Satan as Christians understand him have not been found in any of the verses and passages. The concept of Satan originated later on, probably during the intertestamental period.

To quote this article, copy and paste the following code:

[quote="Who is Satan, and are he and Lucifer the same? by Pseudo-Onkelos"][b]1. An overview of שָׂטָן in the Tanakh.[/b]

The Hebrew word satan takes its time to appear in the Tanakh. It is first used in Numbers 22:22, and again in 22:32, and it is used with reference to the messenger of HaShem because He is obstructing Balaam's path. During the reign of King Saul, David is seen as satan to the Philistines because he could turn on them. (1 Sam. 29:4) It is also ascribed to the sons of Zeruiah, who wanted Shimei son of Gera to be put to death for cursing King David. (2 Sam. 19:22)

In 2 Samuel 24:1, it says that the anger of HaShem burned against Israel. Yet 1 Chronicles 21:1 says satan, "an adversary" in some translations, stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. It could have been a human adversary, or it could have simply been God if this is compared to Numbers 22:19. The idea of God being satan for most Christians might be avoided because of the negative connotations ascribed to Satan.

Moving on, when Solomon became king, it is said that God had given him rest from every side so that there was neither satan, nor evil. (1 Kings 5:4) Later, God raises up satan against King Solomon. These were Hadad the Edomite (11:14) and Rezon son of Eliadah. (v. 23) He remained as satan to Israel all the days when Solomon was king, just as Hadad did. And he loathed Israel while reigning Syria. (v. 25)

In Zechariah 3:1, 2, some English translations erroneously write "Satan". This is misleading and is probably translated this way for theological reasons. The problem with this is that the Hebrew does not write satan, but hasatan, "the adversary". Therefore, it is not a proper noun. Ha- is the definite article, which cannot come before a proper noun. For example, Abraham is a proper noun, so writing "the Abraham" is not permitted grammatically. Therefore, hasatan should not be translated "Satan".

In the context of Psalm 109:6 vesatan is used, not as a demon, but adversaries. (vv. 4, 20, 29) In Job, again, we have hasatan like there was in Zechariah 3:1, 2. He is the adversary, and he stands out from among the sons of God. (Job 1:6; 2:1) He acts as a divine prosecutor to test the faithfulness of Job. (1:9-11; 2:4, 5) Thus far, only in a few references has satan been used for divine beings, yet in no way were any used in the same sense as Satan as Christians understand him. He works for, and is not an enemy of, God.

[b]2. Satan and the serpent. (Genesis 3)[/b]

There isn't much to cover here. The serpent is often ascribed as Satan in this chapter, but there is nothing to support this. Nowhere in the targums, nor [i]The Antiquities of the Jews[/i] is there any mention of the serpent being Satan. This, of course, is not to say that the concept is of Christian origin. Consider the following.

[quote="Wisdom 2:23, 24"]For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that hold of his side do find it.[/quote]

This belief that the serpent was Satan was continued in Christian interpretation. (Rev. 12:9; 20:2) Beyond this, I do not know where the interpretation originated from, but this is a later understanding of Genesis 3. I shall not offer later interpretations to older texts because I aim to know what the text had originally meant.

[b]3. Satan and Lucifer. (Isaiah 14:12-14)[/b]

The concept of Satan's fall is probably from Origen. It is curious if Origen was influenced by 1 Enoch and saw a parallel between it and this particular passage, and therefore made a connection. I shall not continue further with idle speculation. The word lucifer is of Latin origin. Therefore, it should not even be in the Tanakh to begin with. This is from the Vulgate, and it reads:

[quote="Isaiah 14:12, Vulgate"]Quomodo cecidisti de caelo [b]lucifer[/b] qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.[/quote]

Other verses that use this Latin word are found below:

[quote="Job 11:17, Vulgate"]Et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et c** te consumptum putaveris orieris ut [b]lucifer[/b].[/quote]

[quote="Job 38:32, Vulgate"]Numquid producis [b]luciferum[/b] in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis.[/quote]

To understand this passage, follow me. The taunt is directed to the king of Babylon (v. 4). The people of the earth rejoice at the fall of the king of Babylon (v. 8 ). In v. 9, She'ol is personified. By her yearning for the king of Babylon, she awakens the other dead kings of the nations. They mock this once great and powerful king, as if rhetorically asking, "Wert thou not mightier to escape death?" (v. 10)

In v. 11 the word "pomp" is from the Hebrew word gu'an. It is curious as if this is understood as a play on words because it is used not just for pride or arrogance, but also of majesty and excellence. Nevertheless, it was the king's pride that brought him low, and now the worms serve both as the king's bed and covering, both of which lack a state of luxury.

In v. 12, which says, "O Lucifer, son of the morning", should say, "Heylel, son of Shachar". Heylel, a minor god not found in Canaanite sources, was the son of Shachar, who is. He was the god of dawn. His twin, Shalim, was god of dusk. So Heylel may also be a Canaanite god. The concept of Satan in this verse is foreign to rabbinical interpretation, and Pseudo-Jonathan Targum writes:

[quote="Isaiah 14:12, TgPsJon"]How art thou cast from on high, who wast shining among the sons of men as the star Venus among the stars: thou art dashed down to the earth, who wast a slaughter among the nations.[/quote]

Venus was sometimes visible on the horizon at dawn. How shall one understand this? Liken the king of Babylon as planet Venus, and his reign like the brilliance of Venus. It is short-lived because when the Sun rises, Venus fades away. Therefore, the reign of the king of Babylon will be for a short time, and the light of Israel will outshine it and endure like the Sun.

Should this be understood as Satan, then who is Satan's father? It certainly cannot be Shachar. And when did Satan weaken the nations? It is never mentioned. Continuing, the king of Babylon is so pompous that he wishes to take his throne higher than the stars of El, that is, the sons of El, the most high God. His desire is to be lofty on the summit called Mount Zaphon so as to assert divinity. (v. 13, 14)

The king of Babylon will not achieve this, however, for he shall be cast down to She'ol, the place where the righteous and wicked dwell. (v. 15) I understand v. 16 to express that these witnesses are on Earth, not the underworld, and v. 19 seems to support this. He is referred to as "the man", meaning that he was not a spirit. This should cause doubt to those who understand this to mean Satan.

Satan also never caused the inhabitants of Earth to tremble, and the kingdoms to shake. Instead, it was the king of Babylon, who was cast out of his tomb, and like a corpse trampled underfoot, he is condemned to the most miserable part of the underworld, because he was not given a proper burial. (v. 19ff)

[b]4. Satan and the garden of Eden. (Ezekiel 28:12-15)[/b]

Shall this understanding be ascribed to Origen as well? Ironically, for a man of allegory, he took this quite literally with its use of the imagery. The denunciation actually begins in chapter 26, but I will focus only on chapter 28. In v. 2 it tells the reader the son of man, a title given to Ezekiel, to say these things to the prince or ruler of Tyre. Just as we had the king of Babylon is Isaiah 14:3, so we have the ruler of Tyre here.

According to the denunciation, the ruler of Tyre claims to be a god, whose desire is to be enthroned on the seat of God in the midst of the sea. This metonymy is used elsewhere in Ezekiel (27:4, 25-27; 28:8 ), as well as other places in the Tanakh (Exod. 15:8; Jonah 2:3; Psa. 46:2). The metonymy "heart of the seas" works well with the metaphors of Tyre being a prominent ship. (27:3-9)

The ruler of Tyre is asked by the son of man, "Are you wiser than Daniel?" (v. 28:3) This verse is presented as a question in some translations, while not so in others. Even though it should be "Danel", whoever Danel may be, the prophet Daniel would also make sense here. Daniel was the opposite of the ruler of Tyre because he acknowledged that "wisdom and power" was given to him from God. (Dan. 2:23) Rashi comments:

[As for] Daniel Nebuchadnezzar came to make him a god (Dan. 2:46): “and prostrated himself before Daniel, and ordered that they should offer a meal offering and sacrifices of sweet odors to him,” but he did not accept it upon himself, yet you make yourself a god?

The ruler of Tyre is further mocked because supposedly no secret is hidden from. He became very wealthy, and as a result his heart has grown proud. He thinks he possesses the heart of God. (The heart was thought to be the seat of reason to ancient people.) God will send foreigners, the Chaldeans who were not found to be traders with Tyre (Ezek. 27:7-23), for otherwise they might have been hesitant to attack. Now they will thrust him down to the pit.

Shachat is translated "pit". It appears to suggest corruption or destruction (cf. Psa. 55:23; 103:4; 2 Chron. 26:16). The imagery of dying "a violent death in the heart of the seas" may be understood as being defeated in a sea fight. In the hands of the Chaldeans, the ruler of Tyre will realize that he is a man, not a god. He will die in the hands of the uncircumcised. This is thought to be worse than dying in the hands of the circumcised. (cf. 1 Sam. 31:4)

There is now a change of words in v. 11. Instead of "ruler," the word "king" is used. Take note, also, that this lament is directed to the "king of Tyre". A human figure is still in mind and not Satan before his fall. The ArtScroll translation translates it,

[quote="Ezekiel 28:15, ArtScroll"]Are you [Adam] the culmination of perfection, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty?[/quote]

In vv. 13 and 15 seem to suggest Adam, the primeval man. So it has nothing to do with Satan, but with Adam. Adam fits a better description because he is seen as a priest, if not a royal figure. Therefore, the king of Tyre is being represented as such. The king of Tyre is not in the garden of Eden, but "thou delightest thyself with plenty of all good things and delectable ones, as if thou dwellest in the garden of God". (Rashi)

The Tyrian king is adorn with "every precious stone" (v. 13). These precious stones correspond to the stones placed on the breastplate for the high priest (cf. Exod. 28:17-20). Other stones are omitted, but have been supplied in the Septuagint. In v. 14, the king of Tyre is called a guardian cherub. This likely alludes to Exodus 25:20, where the cherub are covering the mercy seat with their wings. The same word for "cover[ing]" in v. 14 is also used here in Exodus 25:20.

The king of Tyre is said to have been on the holy mountain of God. Some have taken this literally, thinking that the cherub who covers was in God's heavenly abode. However, this is the wrong idea. There are places in the Tanakh where "the mountain of God" is mentioned (Gen. 22:14; Exod. 3:1; 4:27; 18:5, et al.), and they're not in heaven.

In v. 15, this makes more sense if attributed to Adam, the first man, not an angel in heaven named Lucifer. (cf. Eccl. 7:29) Like Adam, whose sin was pride, so too is the king of Tyre's (v. 16). Thus far, the concept of Satan as Christians understand him have not been found in any of the verses and passages. The concept of Satan originated later on, probably during the intertestamental period.[/quote]
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:44 pm


Small addition to argument 2. There is a reference in the Babylonian Talmud of the Serpent being either Satan or a Satan.

Baba Bathra 16
R. Isaac said: Satan's torment was worse than that of Job; he was like a servant who is told by his master, 'Break the cask but do not let any of the wine spill.' Resh Lakish said: Satan, the evil prompter, and the Angel of Death are all one. He is called Satan, as it is written, And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.5 He is called the evil prompter:6 [we know this because] it is written in another place, [Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart] was only evil continually,7 and it is written here [in connection with Satan] 'Only upon himself put not forth thine hand.8 The same is also the Angel of Death, since it says, Only spare his life,9 which shows that Job's life belonged to him.


Celeblin Galadeneryn pointed this out to me a few years ago.

The earliest writings we have detailing Satan and the Fall is the Hebrew pseudepigraphical text, Life of Adam and Eve, also know as the Apocylpse of Moses.

rmcdra
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:43 pm


rmcdra
Small addition to argument 2. There is a reference in the Babylonian Talmud of the Serpent being either Satan or a Satan.

Baba Bathra 16
R. Isaac said: Satan's torment was worse than that of Job; he was like a servant who is told by his master, 'Break the cask but do not let any of the wine spill.' Resh Lakish said: Satan, the evil prompter, and the Angel of Death are all one. He is called Satan, as it is written, And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.5 He is called the evil prompter:6 [we know this because] it is written in another place, [Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart] was only evil continually,7 and it is written here [in connection with Satan] 'Only upon himself put not forth thine hand.8 The same is also the Angel of Death, since it says, Only spare his life,9 which shows that Job's life belonged to him.


Celeblin Galadeneryn pointed this out to me a few years ago.

The earliest writings we have detailing Satan and the Fall is the Hebrew pseudepigraphical text, Life of Adam and Eve, also know as the Apocylpse of Moses.


I don't see anything about the serpent here. What's the date for the Apocalypse of Moses and Wisdom of Solomon?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:28 pm


Pseudo-Onkelos
rmcdra
Small addition to argument 2. There is a reference in the Babylonian Talmud of the Serpent being either Satan or a Satan.

Baba Bathra 16
R. Isaac said: Satan's torment was worse than that of Job; he was like a servant who is told by his master, 'Break the cask but do not let any of the wine spill.' Resh Lakish said: Satan, the evil prompter, and the Angel of Death are all one. He is called Satan, as it is written, And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.5 He is called the evil prompter:6 [we know this because] it is written in another place, [Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart] was only evil continually,7 and it is written here [in connection with Satan] 'Only upon himself put not forth thine hand.8 The same is also the Angel of Death, since it says, Only spare his life,9 which shows that Job's life belonged to him.


Celeblin Galadeneryn pointed this out to me a few years ago.

The earliest writings we have detailing Satan and the Fall is the Hebrew pseudepigraphical text, Life of Adam and Eve, also know as the Apocylpse of Moses.


I don't see anything about the serpent here. What's the date for the Apocalypse of Moses and Wisdom of Solomon?

Here is the exact quote from Celeblin

Celeblin Galadeneryn
In the Talmud, Ha-Satan is said to be a title given to the angel Samael, who elsewhere is attributed to the Serpent in the Garden.

Quote:
R. Isaac said: Satan's torment was worse than that of Job; he was like a servant who is told by his master, 'Break the cask but do not let any of the wine spill.' Resh Lakish said: Satan, the evil prompter, and the Angel of Death are all one. He is called Satan, as it is written, And Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.5 He is called the evil prompter:6 [we know this because] it is written in another place, [Every imagination of the thoughts of his heart] was only evil continually,7 and it is written here [in connection with Satan] 'Only upon himself put not forth thine hand.8 The same is also the Angel of Death, since it says, Only spare his life,9 which shows that Job's life belonged to him.


The Angel of Death being Samael, who in the Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer is identified as the serpent.
So because Samael is equated with the Angel of Death and the serpent in the gardent of Eden and the Angel of Death is equated to being Satan, you get Satan being equated to the serpent of the Garden of Eden.

The dating of the the Life of Adam and Eve is believed to be around the 1st Century CE, consistent with your theory of Satan being developed around the intertestamental period

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:07 am


rmcdra
So because Samael is equated with the Angel of Death and the serpent in the gardent of Eden and the Angel of Death is equated to being Satan, you get Satan being equated to the serpent of the Garden of Eden.


I still don't see it in the passage you're citing me. However, the Pseudo-Jonathan targum says:

TgPsJon
In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art: for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.

And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand.


The serpent and Samael are clearly two different persons, and Samael isn't even tempting Eve. Instead, he's like a deterrent because Eve becomes afraid. Even if Samael is the same as Satan and the serpent, it's only a later interpretation.

rmcdra
The dating of the the Life of Adam and Eve is believed to be around the 1st Century CE, consistent with your theory of Satan being developed around the intertestamental period


It's too early of a date, however. If Wisdom of Solomon is earlier, then I'll leave it alone.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:02 pm


Pseudo-Onkelos
rmcdra
So because Samael is equated with the Angel of Death and the serpent in the gardent of Eden and the Angel of Death is equated to being Satan, you get Satan being equated to the serpent of the Garden of Eden.


I still don't see it in the passage you're citing me. However, the Pseudo-Jonathan targum says:

TgPsJon
In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art: for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.

And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand.

The serpent and Samael are clearly two different persons, and Samael isn't even tempting Eve. Instead, he's like a deterrent because Eve becomes afraid. Even if Samael is the same as Satan and the serpent, it's only a later interpretation.
Okay I see where I had misspoke now. It was a combination of sources that might have lead to the development and identification of Satan being the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

In Chapter 13 of The Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, he identifies the Serpent in Genesis as Samael.
Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, Chapter 13, pg. 93

So (was it with) the serpent. All the deeds which it did, and all the words which it spake, it did not speak ^ except by the intention of Sammael.

The Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer (English) I'm having trouble finding a date for this text.

Couple that with the other Midrash, Baba Bathra 16, and it's no surprise if some Hebrew groups familiar with these traditions, were making the connections of the serpent being Satan.

Quote:
It's too early of a date, however. If Wisdom of Solomon is earlier, then I'll leave it alone.
Wisdom of Solomon is earlier, it's dated around 1st or 2nd Century BCE from what I've been seeing.

rmcdra
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:00 pm


rmcdra
Pseudo-Onkelos
rmcdra
So because Samael is equated with the Angel of Death and the serpent in the gardent of Eden and the Angel of Death is equated to being Satan, you get Satan being equated to the serpent of the Garden of Eden.


I still don't see it in the passage you're citing me. However, the Pseudo-Jonathan targum says:

TgPsJon
In that hour the serpent spake accusation against his Creator, and said to the woman, Dying you will not die; for every artificer hateth the son of his art: for it is manifest before the Lord, that in the day that you eat of it, you will be as the great angels, who are wise to know between good and evil.

And the woman beheld Sammael, the angel of death, and was afraid; yet she knew that the tree was good to eat, and that it was medicine for the enlightenment of the eyes, and desirable tree by means of which to understand.

The serpent and Samael are clearly two different persons, and Samael isn't even tempting Eve. Instead, he's like a deterrent because Eve becomes afraid. Even if Samael is the same as Satan and the serpent, it's only a later interpretation.
Okay I see where I had misspoke now. It was a combination of sources that might have lead to the development and identification of Satan being the serpent in the Garden of Eden.

In Chapter 13 of The Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, he identifies the Serpent in Genesis as Samael.
Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer, Chapter 13, pg. 93

So (was it with) the serpent. All the deeds which it did, and all the words which it spake, it did not speak ^ except by the intention of Sammael.

The Sayings of Rabbi Eliezer (English) I'm having trouble finding a date for this text.

Couple that with the other Midrash, Baba Bathra 16, and it's no surprise if some Hebrew groups familiar with these traditions, were making the connections of the serpent being Satan.

Quote:
It's too early of a date, however. If Wisdom of Solomon is earlier, then I'll leave it alone.
Wisdom of Solomon is earlier, it's dated around 1st or 2nd Century BCE from what I've been seeing.


I was aware of the talmudic references of Satan and the serpent, but it had been so long ago when I found the information. I didn't keep track of it, so I lost it. Still, it is interesting to note, I don't deny that the concept of the serpent and Satan being one and the same is a Jewish concept.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:36 am


Martin Luther translated the Roman Catholic Latin Bibles into German, which influenced the King James translation later on... would that mean Martin Luther is the ultimate cause of the common use of "Lucifer"?

Qyp

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:21 am


Qyp
Martin Luther translated the Roman Catholic Latin Bibles into German, which influenced the King James translation later on... would that mean Martin Luther is the ultimate cause of the common use of "Lucifer"?


No. You're ignoring the Geneva Bible, and Luther wasn't alive during the time of the original King James version. Textus Receptus is strictly New Testament material, which was what Luther used for his German Bible. The Vulgate was also used for the KJV. Even then, Calvin was aware of the incorrect commentary regarding Isaiah 14:12. He wrote:

Calvin's Commentaries
12. How art thou fallen from heaven! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which he had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; and that on account of his splendor and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance; for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:32 am


Pseudo-Onkelos
Qyp
Martin Luther translated the Roman Catholic Latin Bibles into German, which influenced the King James translation later on... would that mean Martin Luther is the ultimate cause of the common use of "Lucifer"?


No. You're ignoring the Geneva Bible, and Luther wasn't alive during the time of the original King James version. Textus Receptus is strictly New Testament material, which was what Luther used for his German Bible. The Vulgate was also used for the KJV. Even then, Calvin was aware of the incorrect commentary regarding Isaiah 14:12. He wrote:

Calvin's Commentaries
12. How art thou fallen from heaven! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which he had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; and that on account of his splendor and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance; for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.

Ah, I see.

I wonder if, the Angel/Man/God, that wrestled with Jacob was actually "ha-Satan", but just described differently?

Qyp

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Pseudo-Onkelos

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:09 am


Qyp
Pseudo-Onkelos
Qyp
Martin Luther translated the Roman Catholic Latin Bibles into German, which influenced the King James translation later on... would that mean Martin Luther is the ultimate cause of the common use of "Lucifer"?


No. You're ignoring the Geneva Bible, and Luther wasn't alive during the time of the original King James version. Textus Receptus is strictly New Testament material, which was what Luther used for his German Bible. The Vulgate was also used for the KJV. Even then, Calvin was aware of the incorrect commentary regarding Isaiah 14:12. He wrote:

Calvin's Commentaries
12. How art thou fallen from heaven! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which he had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; and that on account of his splendor and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance; for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.

Ah, I see.

I wonder if, the Angel/Man/God, that wrestled with Jacob was actually "ha-Satan", but just described differently?


No. It's likely the messenger of God. Genesis 32:24 refers to the person Jacob wrestles with as a man. God and angels are sometimes confused to be men. (18ff) However, in 32:30, Jacob says that he had "seen God face to face". In Hosea 12:3, 4a, it says:

"In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor."

The messenger of God is assumed by Christians as the pre-incarnate Jesus, but I do not hold to such notion. The messenger of God was the shaliach, an agent of God who held the divine prerogatives of God Himself. Simply put, the messenger of God carried the divine name.

"Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him." (Exod. 23:21)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am


Pseudo-Onkelos
Qyp
Pseudo-Onkelos
Qyp
Martin Luther translated the Roman Catholic Latin Bibles into German, which influenced the King James translation later on... would that mean Martin Luther is the ultimate cause of the common use of "Lucifer"?


No. You're ignoring the Geneva Bible, and Luther wasn't alive during the time of the original King James version. Textus Receptus is strictly New Testament material, which was what Luther used for his German Bible. The Vulgate was also used for the KJV. Even then, Calvin was aware of the incorrect commentary regarding Isaiah 14:12. He wrote:

Calvin's Commentaries
12. How art thou fallen from heaven! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which he had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; and that on account of his splendor and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance; for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.

Ah, I see.

I wonder if, the Angel/Man/God, that wrestled with Jacob was actually "ha-Satan", but just described differently?


No. It's likely the messenger of God. Genesis 32:24 refers to the person Jacob wrestles with as a man. God and angels are sometimes confused to be men. (18ff) However, in 32:30, Jacob says that he had "seen God face to face". In Hosea 12:3, 4a, it says:

"In the womb he took his brother by the heel, and in his manhood he strove with God. He strove with the angel and prevailed; he wept and sought his favor."

The messenger of God is assumed by Christians as the pre-incarnate Jesus, but I do not hold to such notion. The messenger of God was the shaliach, an agent of God who held the divine prerogatives of God Himself. Simply put, the messenger of God carried the divine name.

"Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him." (Exod. 23:21)

Hmmm, a thought came to me just now. If Adam was made in the IMAGE of God... could that image be that man Jacob wrestled with?

Or maybe Adam and Jesus were, in a way, identical? Like, if were put Adam side by side with Jesus before he went up on the cross, and Adam just after being cast from the Eden... would they, in theory, look exactly alike?

I have wondered if the Image of God is literal, or not. It probably isn't, but if it IS, then Adam is basically Jesus' brother and ancestor at the same time.

Qyp

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Pseudo-Onkelos

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:42 am


Qyp
Hmmm, a thought came to me just now. If Adam was made in the IMAGE of God... could that image be that man Jacob wrestled with?

Or maybe Adam and Jesus were, in a way, identical? Like, if were put Adam side by side with Jesus before he went up on the cross, and Adam just after being cast from the Eden... would they, in theory, look exactly alike?

I have wondered if the Image of God is literal, or not. It probably isn't, but if it IS, then Adam is basically Jesus' brother and ancestor at the same time.


The Hebrew word for image is tselem, and demut for likeness. Throughout the entire Tanakh, with the exception of two verses (Psa. 39:7; 73:20), tselem always refers to something physical. In Genesis 5:3, it says:

"When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image [bid'muto k'tsal'mo], and named him Seth."

Compare this with Genesis 1:26, which says:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness [b'tsal'menu kid'mutenu]."

It is curious on why one should think that tselem and demut refer to the "mental faculties", or "reasoning", or "soul", when no one would say such thing of Seth, nor the idols. I don't think Adam looked like God, just as one human doesn't look like another. I think instead that Adam had the resemblance of God. I can't say Adam and Jesus would have looked like each other, as in having the same face. The only similarity they had was that besides being human, both were the son of God.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:34 pm


Pseudo-Onkelos
Qyp
Hmmm, a thought came to me just now. If Adam was made in the IMAGE of God... could that image be that man Jacob wrestled with?

Or maybe Adam and Jesus were, in a way, identical? Like, if were put Adam side by side with Jesus before he went up on the cross, and Adam just after being cast from the Eden... would they, in theory, look exactly alike?

I have wondered if the Image of God is literal, or not. It probably isn't, but if it IS, then Adam is basically Jesus' brother and ancestor at the same time.


The Hebrew word for image is tselem, and demut for likeness. Throughout the entire Tanakh, with the exception of two verses (Psa. 39:7; 73:20), tselem always refers to something physical. In Genesis 5:3, it says:

"When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image [bid'muto k'tsal'mo], and named him Seth."

Compare this with Genesis 1:26, which says:

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness [b'tsal'menu kid'mutenu]."

It is curious on why one should think that tselem and demut refer to the "mental faculties", or "reasoning", or "soul", when no one would say such thing of Seth, nor the idols. I don't think Adam looked like God, just as one human doesn't look like another. I think instead that Adam had the resemblance of God. I can't say Adam and Jesus would have looked like each other, as in having the same face. The only similarity they had was that besides being human, both were the son of God.

Ah, I see. That is very informative.

Qyp

Manly Lunatic

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