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chingate

PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:27 pm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjmFm8PIz8M

---

EDIT 7/23/2012: For the record I am no longer a Christian, but this is still an interesting topic. Just wanted to get that out there. Anyway continue discussion ^-^
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:10 pm


The Hebrew and Greek scriptures really do expose the deceptions we're facing today.

The NWO will live by Lucifer's fallen creation's principles of self-worship/do what's right in your own eyes; what our ancestors called fallen angels and demons in the past is what we call "aliens" or "ET's" today. It's an area I will continue to study and I hope everyone else gives it a fair chance too.

real eyes realize

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:11 pm



Oh for the love of all things unholy, Lucifer=/=Satan/Devil.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:17 pm


Calelith

Oh for the love of all things unholy, Lucifer=/=Satan/Devil.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Let me rephrase for clarity's sake: not Lucifer but the fallen angel that wanted to usurp YHWH's authority and sit on his throne; I'm also not referring to the evil spirits that are sent to test humankind (ha-Satan).

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:19 pm


real eyes realize
Calelith

Oh for the love of all things unholy, Lucifer=/=Satan/Devil.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Let me rephrase for clarity's sake: not Lucifer but the fallen angel that wanted to usurp YHWH's authority and sit on his throne; I'm also not referring to the evil spirits that are sent to test humankind (ha-Satan).



There is no angel/fallen angel with the name Lucifer.

Edit:
Ha-Satan still stands next to God and does the job he was given, to tests man's faith.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:28 pm


Calelith
real eyes realize
Calelith

Oh for the love of all things unholy, Lucifer=/=Satan/Devil.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Let me rephrase for clarity's sake: not Lucifer but the fallen angel that wanted to usurp YHWH's authority and sit on his throne; I'm also not referring to the evil spirits that are sent to test humankind (ha-Satan).



There is no angel/fallen angel with the name Lucifer.

Edit:
Ha-Satan still stands next to God and does the job he was given, to tests man's faith.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


I do not know the name of the fallen being that tried to usurp YHWH's authority, but he exists; he's all about rebellion against YHWH and worshiping self.

As for your statement that there is no "angel" that goes by that name, I think Jehovah's witnesses would disagree with you; they believe Yeshua was a messenger/angel and he is referenced as lucifer at least once.

edit: like I said, I'm not referring to ha-Satan.

real eyes realize

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:31 pm


real eyes realize
Calelith
real eyes realize
Calelith

Oh for the love of all things unholy, Lucifer=/=Satan/Devil.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Let me rephrase for clarity's sake: not Lucifer but the fallen angel that wanted to usurp YHWH's authority and sit on his throne; I'm also not referring to the evil spirits that are sent to test humankind (ha-Satan).



There is no angel/fallen angel with the name Lucifer.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


I do not know the name of the fallen being that tried to usurp YHWH's authority, but he exists; he's all about rebellion against YHWH and worshiping self.

As for your statement that there is no "angel" that goes by that name, I think Jehovah's witnesses would disagree with you; they believe Yeshua was a messenger/angel and he is referenced as lucifer at least once.



Jesus called him the Morning Star which is the English translation of the Latin word Lucifer. He never called himself, or was referred to, as Lucifer. Only as "Morning Star."

What Biblical verse are you using that explains the so called rebellion that everyone keeps referring to?


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:46 pm


The angels rebelling/falling from their position:

Quote:
Jude 1:6

And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.


What awaits those entities for what they did (obviously they weren't in a state of obedience):

Quote:
Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Which correlates with what the Book of Enoch describes in Chapter 6 (The Fall of the Angels): http://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe009.htm and in Genesis 6.

Apparently, their leader is Sêmîazâz/Semyaza.



edit:

This is what I'm referring to when I say Jesus is called lucifer:

Quote:
2 Peter 1:19
New International Version (NIV)

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

II Petri 1:19
Biblia Sacra Vulgata (VULGATE)

19 et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

real eyes realize

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:59 pm


real eyes realize
The angels rebelling/falling from their position:

Jude 1:6 -
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.



That verse is about perversion, not the "fall" of angels. They left the court of heaven in order to partake in the sexual perversion of humanity. They never 'fell."


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Quote:
What awaits those entities for what they did (obviously they weren't in a state of obedience):

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.



That particular verse is in reference to unbelievers joining with Satan in an eternal separation from God.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Quote:
Which correlates with what the Book of Enoch describes in Chapter 6 (The Fall of the Angels): http://sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe009.htm and in Genesis 6.

Apparently, their leader is Sêmîazâz/Semyaza.



The Book of Enoch is not Biblical Canon and hasn't been for over a thousand years.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:12 pm


Calelith



That verse is about perversion, not the "fall" of angels. They left the court of heaven in order to partake in the sexual perversion of humanity. They never 'fell."


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Is there a reason you are making a distinction between "fall" and "perversion"?
Is the fall of mankind any different? It was a perversion of his purpose for the human race. YHWH didn't create us to usurp his authority.

Quote:

That particular verse is in reference to unbelievers joining with Satan in an eternal separation from God.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Well now that we know his name, it's referring to Shemyaza and his fallen angels. I'm aware of that. It's a separation for choosing to disobey him and not wanting to be under his authority.

Quote:

The Book of Enoch is not Biblical Canon and hasn't been for over a thousand years.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Canon or not, Yeshua referred to it and gave John a vision that correlates with the same vision Ezekiel received about the New Heavens and the New Earth (also the same vision Isaiah received). Have you actually read the book? or are you prejudging it and choosing to not even acknowledge it because it's been labeled apocrypha?

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:26 pm


real eyes realize

Is there a reason you are making a distinction between "fall" and "perversion"?
Is the fall of mankind any different? It was a perversion of his purpose for the human race. YHWH didn't create us to usurp his authority.



Because the angels never fell. They left on their own accord because they wanted to sample the sexual nature of humanity, something they themselves did not have an understanding of.

A fall in what way? There are many different ways humanity can/has 'fallen.' You're gonna have to be more specific.

But we were given the freedom to make the choice on if we want to follow him or not.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Quote:
Well now that we know his name, it's referring to Shemyaza and his fallen angels. I'm aware of that. It's a separation for choosing to disobey him and not wanting to be under his authority.



It's not in reference to Shemyaza, it's in a direct reference to the devil/Satan. The verse before that has Jesus turning to and directly speaking to those that turn/turned from God's love.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Quote:
Canon or not, Yeshua referred to it and gave John a vision that correlates with the same vision Ezekiel received about the New Heavens and the New Earth (also the same vision Isaiah received). Have you actually read the book? or are you prejudging it and choosing to not even acknowledge it because it's been labeled apocrypha?



Doesn't matter, it's no longer considered Biblical canon and therefor what's stated is no longer relevant.

Even then the Book of Enoch, if it was still canon, would be in Old Testament not New Testament and therefor not something Christians would follow.

I've read the Book of Enoch, as well as the other sources that brought about the belief that Satan fell, that his name is Lucifer, and other things the relate to that.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:38 pm


I thought I was specific: falling and perversion mean the same thing; it's choosing to operate outside of how you've been told to act, i.e. Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, the angels leaving their positions. You're assigned something and you don't deviate. What does their understanding have to do with anything?

Shemyaza turned from YHWH. He and the angels that rebelled with him swore an oath that they would leave their heavenly abode knowing full well what the consequences would be (again, according to the Book of Enoch, if you wish to disregard it, your choice; but I think it's true).

Just because it's in the Old Testament does not mean Christians should disregard it; otherwise, that means we also have to scrap out the promises made to Abraham and his descendants, we have to ignore the flood account, the mass exodus, the ten plagues that came against pharaoh, all the prophecies that speak about the Messiah, the whole calendar that his people are given which prophetically speaks about the Messiah.

Christians are suppose to follow Yeshua; Yeshua validated Moses and the Prophets. He validates the "New Heaven and New Earth" prophecy which is detailed in both the Old and New Testaments (and in the Book of Enoch); John is shown the New Heaven and the New Earth in a vision (Rev 21) . The majority of Christendom does not crack open their bible, let alone study it. Are you going by majority opinion or by what the text actually says?

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:02 pm


real eyes realize
The majority of Christendom does not crack open their bible, let alone study it. Are you going by majority opinion or by what the text actually says?



What do you think?


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:15 pm


Calelith
real eyes realize
The majority of Christendom does not crack open their bible, let alone study it. Are you going by majority opinion or by what the text actually says?



What do you think?


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Honestly, it's seems like you're doing a little bit of both. sweatdrop

real eyes realize

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Calelith

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:18 pm


real eyes realize
Calelith
real eyes realize
The majority of Christendom does not crack open their bible, let alone study it. Are you going by majority opinion or by what the text actually says?



What do you think?


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."


Honestly, it's seems like you're doing a little bit of both. sweatdrop



I'm actually going by what I know of the text and what would be considered common knowledge on other parts.

I own several different versions of the Bible, two of them in a language other then English. I'm one of the few none Christians (that I know) that's read the Bible from front to back more then once.


"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wagh’nagl fhtagn."
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