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 Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:28 pm
Please do not delete this, I mean this to not start a fight, but I want people to at least think about this and discuss it, and before commenting please read through the entire thing, I don't want people to think I am saying one thing when really I am saying something else, or comment saying I am ignoring this when I might have covered it.
I would like to discuss how meanings of words can change over the centuries, one such word that I will use as an example is f**, the oldest meaning to my knowledge was "a bundle of sticks", it then soon became an insult and a way to describe someone of low class or old age for they were usually the ones to "gather stick bundles", it later on came to mean a "pack of cigs", then came to mean that someone was "Gay", now it is slowly becoming to mean someone who is an "Idiot". Words can change their meanings as long as others relate that meaning to the word, so, if someone can't claim to be a druid, then someone needs to inform the 10,000 people who claim to be druids, young and old, in England and all of the druid orders there- (source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/03/uk-druids-religion-recognized-for-first-time_n_748369.html)
Now, I understand how wiccan religion works so I am not including that, but the way everyone here is going on about the druids is very closed minded, things change just like the meaning of words, yes its good to educate where the origins of the name druid came from, but to deny the meaning and say it is not correct and no one has a right to it is very negative. To be one with the energies of the universe one must accept change, to know the past but accept the now, how can you truly be connected if you can't accept the meaning of a title to change? Nothing stays the same and to think that is hypocritical, after all, is there not different branches of wicca? Yes there is still things you must meet to be able to claim the title, but was there not change when these branches of wicca appeared? Its the same with Christianity, it started as one branch, but now has multiple branches. Change is always happening, to live is to change, even the rocks on the side of the river change form, yes its a very slow process, but they are never the same like they were hundreds of years ago.
I don't mean for this to offend anyone, but being closed minded about these things is pretty much being hypocritical, you say you are open minded and that its not right to bash someone else or claim that there religion is wrong, yet here you are doing just that to those who claim to be druid. The druids of today are a separate group from the druids of the past, the word druid no longer refers to an educated people but to a group of people of nature.
It is politically acknowledged as a religion in Britain, the process and acceptance of the new meaning has started years ago and now is no longer a Cultural Misappropriation. If you were to go up to these people you would make them feel like how we feel when someone of a christian religion, or some other religion, tell us we are wrong to follow our religion and that it is a false religion.
So maybe instead of saying no one has a right to it, it might be better to educate the origins of the word, but don't call the meaning of the word today to be wrong.
I apologize if this has angered anyone, I am after all just posting my opinion and views, not saying it is the only one, but I am trying to be a voice of reason and a voice of defense for all of those who are of the Druid religion, after all, how would you feel if you grew up around those who claim to be druid and then came across someone saying that their religion is wrong? It shouldn't be hard to imagine since I know all of us have had some encounter similar to this.
I hope this gives you something to consider and think about, many blessings to you all, hopefully still a member of the Sacred Grove,
Featherwolf (aka Nyx Reborn)
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:21 pm
Now I don't know other people's take on this but I would like to say that just because something is recognized by the government doesn't mean it's actually right. I've heard of the government recognizing people as Wiccan High Priests and High Priestesses who weren't even Wiccan.
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:24 pm
Thats not really the point I am trying to make, its more just how the meanings of words change over time.
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:35 pm
Nyx Reborn Please do not delete this, I mean this to not start a fight, but I want people to at least think about this and discuss it, and before commenting please read through the entire thing, I don't want people to think I am saying one thing when really I am saying something else, or comment saying I am ignoring this when I might have covered it. I would like to discuss how meanings of words can change over the centuries, one such word that I will use as an example is f**, the oldest meaning to my knowledge was "a bundle of sticks", it then soon became an insult and a way to describe someone of low class or old age for they were usually the ones to "gather stick bundles", it later on came to mean a "pack of cigs", then came to mean that someone was "Gay", now it is slowly becoming to mean someone who is an "Idiot". Words can change their meanings as long as others relate that meaning to the word, so, if someone can't claim to be a druid, then someone needs to inform the 10,000 people who claim to be druids, young and old, in England and all of the druid orders there- (source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/03/uk-druids-religion-recognized-for-first-time_n_748369.html) Ok- so, I've been called a f**, and I'm a Bi 3rd Gendered person- there is no conclusive beyond a doubt history for the use of the word- but the general consensus is that it has to do with how the word was used as part of an escalation of marginalization, and it's still offensive to me. Even if the word didn't come from gays being burned at the stake like some claim or from accusing gays from being "easy", the idea that eventually sexual orientation is linked to being foolish/stupid or otherwise "bad" is a problem. Our brains wire language, emotion and thoughts together- the science of this is called Neuro-linguistic programming. Quote: but the way everyone here is going on about the druids is very closed minded, things change just like the meaning of words, yes its good to educate where the origins of the name druid came from, but to deny the meaning and say it is not correct and no one has a right to it is very negative. Isn't it just as bad to say "Listen, hear me out" and then insult people by calling them closed minded and accuse them of being negative? neutral Quote: To be one with the energies of the universe one must accept change, to know the past but accept the now, how can you truly be connected if you can't accept the meaning of a title to change? I'm going to disagree with a few things here- 1, I'm not into being told by anyone that I have to be one with the energies of the universe- the universe has some nasty stuff in it, and I want no part of that. I believe evil exists- and I don't plan to give myself over to it's influence. 2- I want to work for good change, not bad. Now, debating if using the word druid is good change or bad is fair- but just accepting change because it's change isn't a good idea in my book. Quote: Nothing stays the same and to think that is hypocritical, after all, is there not different branches of wicca? There are different branches of Wicca- they exist because people who are Wiccan, who were initiated properly, developed differences. If Wicca is a painting, all Wiccans have the same painting- but the color of the wall it's hung on and the frame look different, even though the same artist made all the paintings. With the word druid- you have modern people looking at an ancient fresco of Adam, and then painting a picture of a starfish and calling it Druid. Quote: I don't mean for this to offend anyone, but being closed minded about these things is pretty much being hypocritical, you say you are open minded and that its not right to bash someone else or claim that there religion is wrong, yet here you are doing just that to those who claim to be druid. I don't really say I'm open minded or closed minded- I focus more on my BS detector and what makes sense, but I do tend to get really frustrated when people try and pressure me into agreeing with them by associating my disagreement with "bad" and not talking about why we disagree- so calling people closed minded while saying if they agree with you they're being open minded is going to offend- no matter if you mean it to or not. Quote: The druids of today are a separate group from the druids of the past, the word druid no longer refers to an educated people but to a group of people of nature. But do they have the right to claim that? Just like Wiccans, there is a process by which someone is entitled or not to terms. I have a couple ideas on that- How did the Druids of old earn that title and are modern people able to do the same things that made an ancient a Druid? If they can- but choose not to, then I'd say that's as bad as someone saying they're a Midwife when they've never taken a course in it, haven't delivered any babies and aren't licensed. Do the people who used to grant that title still exist- if so, are they willing to pass that title on to other people? What do the Druids of today have in common with the Druids of old that make it make sense to call them Druids? Why? Why do modern groups want to be called Druids? What does it imply for them and for others outside of the religion? What was their motivation? If their motivation was to create a fairytale that distorts history- to make themselves seem legit because they're an "ancient religion" or something like that- I'd say that kind of misrepresentation isn't right. Quote: It is politically acknowledged as a religion in Britain, the process and acceptance of the new meaning has started years ago and now is no longer a Cultural Misappropriation. Politicians accept and acknowledge bad things as being right- that doesn't really change it's nature any more than it being legal to own people like me made it ok. Quote: If you were to go up to these people you would make them feel like how we feel when someone of a christian religion, or some other religion, tell us we are wrong to follow our religion and that it is a false religion. I don't know anyone who says they shouldn't follow their religion- I just think based on what I have read they should call it something else, and I'd be in the same place if they called what they did Vodou. I am in the same place ever time I see someone buy an "Office Voodoo Kit". People can practice sympathetic magic all they want- but that doesn't mean it's Vodou. People can practice nature religions, but that won't make them Druids. Quote: So maybe instead of saying no one has a right to it, it might be better to educate the origins of the word, but don't call the meaning of the word today to be wrong. I think a lot of people here take stands against being quiet when something wrong is going on- it's a good way for bad people to get away with doing bad things- now, discussing if something is bad or not is ok, but expecting people to not do anything when they see something bad isn't. Quote: I apologize if this has angered anyone, I am after all just posting my opinion and views, not saying it is the only one, but I am trying to be a voice of reason and a voice of defense for all of those who are of the Druid religion, after all, how would you feel if you grew up around those who claim to be druid and then came across someone saying that their religion is wrong? No one is saying the religion is wrong- they're saying what it's being called isn't ethical because it's misappropriating from another culture. And I don't mind your opinion and the discussion- I mind the insults you built into it. stare
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Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:57 pm
I had another thought- how many different Druid groups are there, who qualifies one group to be a druid, what do they have in common?
When I was reading about them- I got the impression there are 2 main groups and lots of smaller groups and solitaries without a common belief structure or anything.
I don't think you have to have a Druidic Pope, but you have to have something in common or you might as well call yourself something else.
Wicca has it's core in common, Recon religions have their cultures and pantheons- Feri has it's traditions and practices- but being a druid doesn't mean that you have anything in common with the guy next to you.
Even witches- for all the diversity in witchcraft, at least practice a craft.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:26 am
Did you not see the link in the sticky to the Q&A thread? It exists so we don't end up with a heap of these every time someone disagrees. Esiris I had another thought- how many different Druid groups are there, who qualifies one group to be a druid, what do they have in common? When I was reading about them- I got the impression there are 2 main groups and lots of smaller groups and solitaries without a common belief structure or anything. This is one of my major issues. There is nothing much tying these different groups together. If you're going to say "meanings change", there has to be a meaning for it to have changed to. Right now "druid" doesn't mean anything. It means "I wanted a super-special title".
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:00 am
Were druids of old not priests? That is dealing with religion, and who is to say that part didn't survive and get passed along, the truth is since there isn't much about the ancient druids that exists so no one will ever really know who they really were and what they were about. I apologize about how some of the lines were written out, I should have gone back over it to make sure that it was worded better. I didn't mean to offend.
And also I wasn't saying anyone had to be one with the energies, just saying if you want to be. Once again I should had worded this better and I am sorry.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:21 am
Nyx Reborn Were druids of old not priests? Not really- certainly not all of them from what I've read, but I'm really not an expert. Most of the information I came across was from another website and it talks about the different Druids and what made them druids- some of them where magic users, some of them were generals or builders. Since that site was written by people who had read all the legends in the surviving sources and cited specific books, it's the closest thing to being able to read them that I can get- I don't speak Latin or Irish, let alone read it. sweatdrop Quote: That is dealing with religion, and who is to say that part didn't survive and get passed along, the truth is since there isn't much about the ancient druids that exists so no one will ever really know who they really were and what they were about. Historians have some ideas- and there is some stuff written down, it's just not very detailed- but in the surviving legends and stuff they talk about what their different roles were, and what kind of training they had, I think. Don't quote me on the last part. Quote: And also I wasn't saying anyone had to be one with the energies, just saying if you want to be. Once again I should had worded this better and I am sorry. I kind of hope no one chooses to be "one" with energies that victimize, terrorize and destroy others. sweatdrop
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:17 am
Nyx Reborn Were druids of old not priests? That is dealing with religion, and who is to say that part didn't survive and get passed along, the truth is since there isn't much about the ancient druids that exists so no one will ever really know who they really were and what they were about. I apologize about how some of the lines were written out, I should have gone back over it to make sure that it was worded better. I didn't mean to offend. And also I wasn't saying anyone had to be one with the energies, just saying if you want to be. Once again I should had worded this better and I am sorry. They were not. They were a white-collar caste - doctors, scholars, lawyers, and astronomers. Their ties to religion may be in that they held stories and songs about the Gods in their minds, that their observances of the skies tracked the calendar and the changing year. But they were not explicitly priests. Their roles in society have been largely replaced in the modern era, and there's no need to resurrect their caste. The Romans destroyed the Druids. They're dead. Being a largely oral tradition, it also means we've lost the majority of their lore and teachings. What is there is also largely written by the Romans - the people who conquered their lands. Conquerers tend not to write the most unbiased pieces regarding their foes. Indeed, what has survived is there. People can look at it and wonder and guess. But what modern 'Druids' do has little in common with the role of the Druids in ancient society. Using the title 'Druid' to describe these widely divergent neo-pagan paths is misleading, and in the end renders the term meaningless.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:23 am
Oooo, language change. Lots of people complain about language change ("a kid is a baby goat; stop calling your children baby goats!") but linguistically, it's neither good, nor bad.
The problem I can see with a word like "druid" is that it hasn't changed over the centuries. I haven't looked up the history of the word, so someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but rather than being a word that changed and evolved over time, I believe, it's been more recently resurrected with its modern meaning(s). And this is a problem, not for any linguistic reason, but because of appropriation. Especially if there are people of Celtic descent getting angry over others absconding with their word(s).
Actually, I'm pretty sure I had this exact same argument about semantic change with regard to the word "Wicca" a couple years ago. xd I've learned what appropriation is, since then.
And as I could happily go off on a couple different irrelevant linguistic tangents, I think I'll stop talking now. razz
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:32 am
Those are good points.
Hey Katefox- when it comes to language change- how does Neurolinguistic Programming fit in with that? Or is that more a psychology thing than a linguistics thing?
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:42 am
Esiris Those are good points. Hey Katefox- when it comes to language change- how does Neurolinguistic Programming fit in with that? Or is that more a psychology thing than a linguistics thing? Umm, I'm honestly not sure how scientific neurolinguistic programming is (sorry!). It has literally never come up in any of my linguistics classes, nor when we did language in intro psych. If there was anything to it, I'd expect it to have been mentioned somewhere. So I'm afraid I can't actually answer your question.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:48 am
Katefox Tarnagona Esiris Those are good points. Hey Katefox- when it comes to language change- how does Neurolinguistic Programming fit in with that? Or is that more a psychology thing than a linguistics thing? Umm, I'm honestly not sure how scientific neurolinguistic programming is (sorry!). It has literally never come up in any of my linguistics classes, nor when we did language in intro psych. If there was anything to it, I'd expect it to have been mentioned somewhere. So I'm afraid I can't actually answer your question. It could have been lumped with something else or just new enough that they weren't going to put it in a text book. sweatdrop I know it's been a large part of Rosie's courses- and she's going for her psych degree.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:07 am
Esiris Katefox Tarnagona Esiris Those are good points. Hey Katefox- when it comes to language change- how does Neurolinguistic Programming fit in with that? Or is that more a psychology thing than a linguistics thing? Umm, I'm honestly not sure how scientific neurolinguistic programming is (sorry!). It has literally never come up in any of my linguistics classes, nor when we did language in intro psych. If there was anything to it, I'd expect it to have been mentioned somewhere. So I'm afraid I can't actually answer your question. It could have been lumped with something else or just new enough that they weren't going to put it in a text book. sweatdrop I know it's been a large part of Rosie's courses- and she's going for her psych degree. Could be. Although apparently it's been around since the 70s or 80s, so that's not exactly new anymore, is it? But it could also just be that psycholinguistics is not my area of interest, so most of my courses were about the nuts and bolts of language, sounds, grammar, &c. Just seems odd that if it's as effective as its supporters claim (going from a quick google search on the subject), it would have been mentioned in passing somewhere. (Unfortunately, I don't have any of my linguistics notes or books here yet, so I can't check them, which is unfortunate, because now I'm curious.) Or it might just be much more relevant to psychology than linguistics. Lulz, thread derailment.
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Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:13 am
Katefox Tarnagona Could be. Although apparently it's been around since the 70s or 80s, so that's not exactly new anymore, is it? In psychology? Yeah- that's still new. sweatdrop Quote: But it could also just be that psycholinguistics is not my area of interest, so most of my courses were about the nuts and bolts of language, sounds, grammar, &c. Just seems odd that if it's as effective as its supporters claim (going from a quick google search on the subject), it would have been mentioned in passing somewhere. (Unfortunately, I don't have any of my linguistics notes or books here yet, so I can't check them, which is unfortunate, because now I'm curious.) Or it might just be much more relevant to psychology than linguistics. Lulz, thread derailment. It's not too much of a derailment- I was asking about it because Rosie is asleep and I think some parts of NLP have a lot to do with marginalization and choices that pagans make when it comes to titles- so it was more like "the scenic route" than a derailment. I just don't know enough to talk about it in depth and I hoped you or someone else did.
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