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 Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm
Before you read what I have to say.
To Poll Vote PM Vistada or place in the forum below (the latter is the more respectful)
I have lost my cool over this.. and I have reached into the darkness of my mind over this. I have seen people have their shops torn apart and stepped on for this. I have seen people call others names and titles that they weren't trying to be.
I need you to all step up. And be adults right now. Not some Gaia Online people, I know you all are beautiful. And I have been blessed by what ever it is that has blessed me for having such an amazing crew of regulars ♥.
I will like to say before I say this. That I am talking about Homosexuality in my shop. And I will say this as well.
I.
Under any circumstances.
Am not against gay OCs and gay/lesbian people..
My best friend is a lesbian transgender and I am a straight woman. VERY STRAIGHT.
We respect eachother.
Hymn gave me this shop. And he himself is a gay man, who has shown his understanding to a member of this shop. But it is now under my name as owner..
I wanted to discuss this to you before changing the rules. I know many who have had their dreams crushed and quite frankly. I like a lot of you smile and wish for you to stay.
I WILL NEVER TOLERATE HOWEVER. Someone flaming, and/or bashing someone else for their thoughts on this. For their sexual orientation. I have had a friend of mine SLANDERED because of this stupid drama between straight and gays.
To the point where they signed her up for gay porn sites with her main email. If I hear about any of you doing this. I will personally black list you from my shop.
(I will not bow down to a gays or lesbians who strive in having equal rights who does the above. You want us to be tolerant of you? YOU have to be tolerant of US straight population.)
To be in my shop you must not be a homophobic.
To be in my shop you must not be a heterophobic.
I hope I make myself clear on this before pressing.
Also, what I decide in the end. Is my decision, I do not want someone trying to over power me in my shop. I am not power hungry. But I own this shop. It is my name in the owner-slot.
I will be putting a little poll up for this.
Ok so all that aside.
I will like to revise this rule:
Same-Sex Lifemating is not allowed. But however, an affectionate relationship can be forged between one another. If it is in the stage that the wolves do wish to continue this relationship into love, the plotting of their love must be shown to Vistada. They can, as a couple (not life mates) surrogate those single and open for surrogating. Also, they can adopt. This, however, shall be very rare.
Why: Because I NEED TO OR I WILL DIE.
People can't be satisfied with just 'well nature says this' because it's pointless in Gaia neutral . So I will have to revise it. To make it easier for me.
FAQs I have been getting:
What the..? VIS? Why are they NOT allowed LifeMating?
-Sighs- I have answered this. So. Many. Times. And I will say it so that we all can understand it:
To mate. Means to bear pups.
To mate does not mean marriage.
To Life Mate. Means. To bear pups. For life. With that other wolf.
To LIFE means to be 'married' I guess. Essentially. They can be life-wise affectionate to each other that is fine.
But male wolves can not bear children.
And females don't have sperm.
Got my issue here? GOOD moving on.
Vis, why do you have issues with our wolves being gay?
Thank you for asking :>. I have studied wolves thoroughly all my life. Because they are my totem, and when I have an interest in an animal..
I go and learn
EVERYTHING about that animal.
Well I have been interested in wolves since I was 3.
I'm 20 now, do the math smile . Yeah. I research a lot.
Male wolves, who are humping other male wolves are not telling them how much they love them. They are telling the other male that they are the bosses. And that they are the Alpha. The humanized packing system we use is a lot more in detail to what is really in a wolf's packing system in the wild.
Also, if you didn't notice. The humping is above tail. And with many blood curling snarls usually.
It is not marking 'mate' or 'marriage'.
--Well some dogs hump other males without growling and they go after my couch and I've even seen moose do--
Hold.. On to that Q. And think. WHY do dogs mate? To say what is there's to make other babies =).
Your dog is being dominant over your s**t when it's humping the couch. Your dog is showing dominance to that of the same gender. You have let your dog hump somewhere. Therefore it is now THEIR b***h. That couch is THEIR bed now.
Moose are just retardedly amazing animals btw. Who think moose statues are real moose. DERP 8>>.
It is not really that I mind your OCs being gay. I don't mind if your sparkle butt that you draw outside of my shop is gay at all! I think it's interesting oDo! And I love flamboyancy. I don't have many gay personas but I do have some smile . It's because it's in the nature of things, and reality.
To either:
Option 1
You will now be limited to one same-sex character per person.
Why: Because I do not want this place to be Shadows of Africa or Soquili or Wishful Thinking where it is out of hand now. I am not saying that it is a bad thing they have so many gay characters. Nor am I against the gay population in these shops, I have a Wishful who was bred out of two fathers.
I just don't want my shop to become it. =).
Option 2:
3 characters max 8D?
I am willing to be nice. And yes, actually to be frank this would be my favourite.
Question: Can my character switch sexualities if I wish another character to be gay after using the three up? Yes. But it must be ok'd by that chara's "affection lifemanwoman thing" before anything happens.
Can my character switch back if I think about it later.
No. But if you REALLY want it back. You must talk to me >>.
Option Three: Same-Sex Affection is not allowed.
Most Natural. I wouldn't mind seeing this but I am not closed minded to other's wants and wishes =). I am not allowed to be!
Same-Sex should just be allowed, No rules attached!
I will be serious with you ^.. Not.. gonna happen.
Why?
I said so :>.
So if the the max-character quota happens:
Can I make my character, as an extra, be gay and just never find someone?
No. I am giving you enough. That would be extending my welcome and it is rather annoying if I have to bend over backwards as the shop owner who makes the rules in the first place.
Also, it doesn't make sense to make a gay character who never has someone >>.
Can they be Bi?
(I will say this first; I was raised bicurious. So I am not against bi's either =P. I just chose my straighthood when I found myself loving all over a man)
I ask this to be a no. I need to know beforehand if your character becomes gay. Bi-stuff makes it so confusing. Same with Pansexual. I am sorry but that sexuality is not welcome here.
A wolf knows if it's a male or a female. Gay or not. I will not allow it, don't even try. Thank you. =).
Inter-species is also NOT allowed at all. A wolf can adopt a deer as it's child but in the fact that the deer is parentless. However that deer can not fall in love with a wolf. I will, whenever I cope the dignity to type up Forest Hymn's history a THIRD Time because of my computer's love for restarting.. Explain this more.
"Asexuality"
Someone not interested in anyone - Sure.
Can a forest kin lo-
Hell.
No. neutral . Don't even. NO. XD
I gave you a poll so that I could see what you are thinkin is the best 8D;. Lol.
This will not determine what I go with. It might help me though.
(Am I allowed to say something Vist, like reply to this forum?)
Yes. But understand that I am still the rule pusher =). And don't take it to heart if I don't reply. I don't want to get all tired of things and snap. It's not me to do that and I don't want it to ever be in my path again.
I will read your posts. But understand these are the only three options I will be giving.
And you have to read the entire above =)!
Also, I love you all. And if I do reply to someone understand it's because I felt alright in answering it.
Don't.. mule-poll vote please. It's not fair for me neutral
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:52 pm
My two cents!
I'll be speaking on the 'mean' side of the argument- but I personally think it would be VERY refreshing to have a natural(ish) wolf rp setting with the mannerisms and behaviors that actually exist in the wild. The shops mentioned above started out sane and responsible, it was easy to rp and easy to get along with everyone in the shop. In my case, I have to avoid rping with characters of alternate choices in orientation because when I'm playing a wolf/lion/horse I play a wolf/lion/horse. This stuff doesn't exist in the animal kingdom- so I have my characters react accordingly. It tends to insult the player rather than just the character. I lose an rp partner, they lose an rp partner, and all those plots vanish. In the above mentioned shops, things have gotten so out of hand that it's become uncomfortable on all fronts. You have to specify your character's preferences, packs have to specify what kind of relationships they allow, and in-character actions become out-of-character offenses and bickering.
I'm all for keeping it all natural~!
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:04 pm
This might not be related to this discussion but I just have to say something.
I was watching the poll to see how the voting would come along because I am curious like that. One minute, it was 3 votes for the last two options then next minute, it is up to 7 to 10 votes on second option (about max of 3 charas).
I personally think it is REALLY shitty of people to use mules to manipulate the voting so it could have the result that THEY would like so they have to resort to cheating by using mules. Why don't you guys just do this the honest way and stay the hell off the mules when it comes to voting for things?
Be honest and respect the shop, mmkay? you guys are not respecting the shop or really understand the point of this thread. *posts this in main thread too*
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:06 pm
Caitlyn Hellstorm This might not be related to this discussion but I will have to say something. I was watching the poll to see how the voting would come along because I am curious like that. One minute, it was 3 votes for the last two options then next minute, it is 7 to 10 votes. I personally think it is REALLY shitty of people to use mules to manipulate the voting so it could have the result that THEY would like so they have to resort to cheating by using mules. Why don't you guys just do this the honest way and stay the hell off the mules when it comes to voting for things? Be honest and respect the shop, mmkay? you guys are not respecting the shop or really understand the point of this thread. *posts this in main thread too* I would like to add it won't tip the balances. :> it is just to see what you guys have on the thought. I am respecting you guys. Respect me too. I would like that, I have been a super kind shop owner for you all. I know people who never get says in how the shop is ruled. You guys have the opened eyes to seeing this! Please have the open hearts to just being truthful to me ♥ Thank you!
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:09 pm
Thalion My two cents! I'll be speaking on the 'mean' side of the argument- but I personally think it would be VERY refreshing to have a natural(ish) wolf rp setting with the mannerisms and behaviors that actually exist in the wild. The shops mentioned above started out sane and responsible, it was easy to rp and easy to get along with everyone in the shop. In my case, I have to avoid rping with characters of alternate choices in orientation because when I'm playing a wolf/lion/horse I play a wolf/lion/horse. This stuff doesn't exist in the animal kingdom- so I have my characters react accordingly. It tends to insult the player rather than just the character. I lose an rp partner, they lose an rp partner, and all those plots vanish. In the above mentioned shops, things have gotten so out of hand that it's become uncomfortable on all fronts. You have to specify your character's preferences, packs have to specify what kind of relationships they allow, and in-character actions become out-of-character offenses and bickering. I'm all for keeping it all natural~! you said everything i was thinking <3
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:22 pm
I understand a lot of where you are coming from, being one also fascinated by wolves. I have studied wolves extensively to get most basic knowledge of their lifestyles and pack life ( I just have very poor vocabulary and use elementary terms... Like curl instead of bend *cough* ).
I also have discussed with thal a long time ago about a similar subject matter, but very briefly.
I am for the second, maybe even just two ( i'd vote for just one, but two of mine seem to be going down that path ). Being strict with the rules is also understandable as the shop is indeed yours and you want it to be as ealistic as possible ( though ome of these species of wolves may not interact under normal circumstances hahaha ). Many animals find other partners purely for the natural way of propagating and continuing the species while broadening the gene pool, but it has been a documented cas that many animals have been known and studied to exhibit homosexual activities. But wolves are not one of them.
There was a study that I read, and you can probably google it, about why some animals exhibit such behaviors. It used the domestic dog and the tendency to hump things. In such a relationship where there is a human master, the dog doesn't normally find a mate but paired by said human, until then that instinct to "have sex" is repressed. This leads to the humping.
Question of food for thought: if only the alpha represses the urges of his/her fellow packMates, would they also find some sort of way to release this natural insticnt?
Ps - it is late for me so my question is a bit off.
Pps - I am on an iPad and autocorrect is a poopstain to work with.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:24 pm
Honestly..the natural thing..these aren't real is my only thing. Though as I have told Vist personally I respect her and, her owning this shop and I understand the 'natural aspect.. I know both sides of the argument but, being so...ah..whats the word...so 'Well it's natural and therefore it's wrong and shouldn't be allowed'...why do we have pink animals then? D: Not that they aren't lovely but, you could make so many arguments about what 'Natural is'.
Just saying in an honest calm manner...I have gay oc's..it would be nice to get them without picking just one..and even before this I told Vist that if I ever made a gay wolf it would be rped greatly to show the working of the relationship from friendship to confusion to a mutual like then love but, not mating that I understand too.
I love everyone in the thread but, to see people I like being so..close minded about something I myself like and would enjoy rping out in here..is kind of hurtful. It would be like me just making a shop of all males..I think there are some out there but, yeah...and someone wanted a straight couple made and I just said 'Okay you can only have one...pick ONE of your couples to make.' Three is my favorite option..then everyone who wants their gay oc's etc can get them without there being so many that Vist feels unhappy about it and, so she won't have stress over this anymore. Because again I love Vist, this shop and the people in it..I just want a chance to rp chars the way I like with the sexuality they have as an OC..I don't think it's too much to ask for..and three would really be great to me o u o .
Thats all I have to say <3
No matter what happens I will stay and rp here..because this has to be one of the best shops I've found on gaia..not coming here anymore would be too sad to even think of lol. I just don't want to lose friends because they are against me getting a character I love. sweatdrop
ALSO sorry if I ramble..tend to do that..when I'm nervous or tense..and I get paranoid about being kicked from shops or hated over stupid stuff XDDD DONT MIND WOLFIE...
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:32 pm
I will have to agree with Thalion and Cait. But here is my two cents. It may happen with other types of animals even humans. But the thing is.. You cannot start a pack with a gay or lesbian couple.. That.. is just wrong. Mortally wrong.
Wolves are among my favorite animals in the world. I have seen things in my life and Wolves having gay or lesbian partners is not one of them. I respect the wolves mainly because of their loyality to their pack especially their mates.
The main goal to have a pack is to raise the cubs within it. with a mother.. AND A father. A mother has a job to do.. to teach certain things to the cubs. Whereas the father is mostly the guardian and will teach his next in line how to do things. I don't think it should be gays and lesbians doing this.
It is not that I have anything against the culture at all. I was raised, knowing my own father is bi and I have an aunt that is getting married to her future wife. I even have a lesbian cousin. All I am saying is that.. let this wolf shop preserve the true being of wolves.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:32 pm
What if your character was not aware of their life choice and it wasn't made until later? Or if the character did not even realize it the,selves yet either? Rockies hit it for me, I love this shop, it's affordable, it's friendly (albeit slow), but it's. Lovely environment. Vista proves she loves the place and the well being of the people who come here by doing this and the amount of effort she and the staff put into the place. Cait - I agree with you there. I was urn the I pression that you could only vote Jin this guild if you we're part of it... But yeah, notice the large differenc since, personally, I do not think we have that many people oline in the shop at the moment to even vote that legitamently. Then again there was that contest.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:33 pm
I think the argument for hurt feeling goes both ways though. Feelings will be hurt on both sides and no one will be fully happy. I'm sure people who want to have their telepathic oc are hurt, or people that want winged wolves are a little sad they can't have their gryphon oc here. Also, saying that anyone who doesn't want gay wolves is 'closed-minded' is a little hurtful as well. Some people are offended by the lack of a gay characters, others are offended by the excess of them- especially if you go into the argument of 'it's natural'.
I can't have a Christian wolf because the setting here is very different, the religion is different. I have a Christian OC here but I'm learning how to alter his faith into something that's more fitting and acceptable to the setting. I can have my OC, I can play here, I won't offend anyone in doing so. And if I need to play him as a Christian, I can play him elsewhere. As I mentioned before (and Vis has mentioned), there are many other shops that openly allow it if you need to have a certain OC behave a certain way. It would be refreshing to have a place that's different in that regard- and for everyone to throw the veiled insults of 'closed-minded' aside and enjoy the shop.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:34 pm
PhiferWolf I understand a lot of where you are coming from, being one also fascinated by wolves. I have studied wolves extensively to get most basic knowledge of their lifestyles and pack life ( I just have very poor vocabulary and use elementary terms... Like curl instead of bend *cough* ). I also have discussed with thal a long time ago about a similar subject matter, but very briefly. I am for the second, maybe even just two ( i'd vote for just one, but two of mine seem to be going down that path ). Being strict with the rules is also understandable as the shop is indeed yours and you want it to be as ealistic as possible ( though ome of these species of wolves may not interact under normal circumstances hahaha ). Many animals find other partners purely for the natural way of propagating and continuing the species while broadening the gene pool, but it has been a documented cas that many animals have been known and studied to exhibit homosexual activities. But wolves are not one of them. There was a study that I read, and you can probably google it, about why some animals exhibit such behaviors. It used the domestic dog and the tendency to hump things. In such a relationship where there is a human master, the dog doesn't normally find a mate but paired by said human, until then that instinct to "have sex" is repressed. This leads to the humping. Question of food for thought: if only the alpha represses the urges of his/her fellow packMates, would they also find some sort of way to release this natural insticnt? Ps - it is late for me so my question is a bit off. Pps - I am on an iPad and autocorrect is a poopstain to work with. Phifer. Reread your post. Many Animals. Yes I know some animals do. and Dogs are, let me say this. Different from wolves. As I said the dog-thing because I knew someone was going to say it. Also, ANIMALS are all different from eachother. I do not want people to just categorizing the wolves of ForestHymn as just animals. They are one animal. Wolves. Foxes. Lynx. And Deer. It is not 'having sex' I have done better then meerly google it. I have read books, archives, my fiance wants to be a Veterinarian of all things. I have taught dogs and wolves, I have even been within exhibits of wolves. I had wolves live in my backyard when I lived at my parents' house. "HUMPING" is not SEX. It is a dominant move. Also. HUMAN MASTERS are not masters if their dog is humping them. End of discussion. :>. PS: Phifer. The animals that feel the need to have same sex. Are primates and dolphins smile ! I've done my research. And Thalion and I have once had a huge conversation with this topic. @Rocker. Where colours are, I can not change. It's been going on for so long. We should all understand this isn't about the coat of our wolves but of the sexuality sweety. It is also something even Hymn allowed and if I change that rule I will lose a lot of you ;P. A lot more then this would. I am meaning Mentally. I have already bent wolves where it is not bendable for this shop.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:36 pm
I am very sure this sums up the entire point of this thread- Quote: What the..? VIS? Why are they NOT allowed LifeMating?-Sighs- I have answered this. So. Many. Times. And I will say it so that we all can understand it: To mate. Means to bear pups. To mate does not mean marriage. To Life Mate. Means. To bear pups. For life. With that other wolf. To LIFE means to be 'married' I guess. Essentially. They can be life-wise affectionate to each other that is fine. But male wolves can not bear children. And females don't have sperm. Got my issue here? GOOD moving on. Vis, why do you have issues with our wolves being gay?Thank you for asking :>. I have studied wolves thoroughly all my life. Because they are my totem, and when I have an interest in an animal.. I go and learn EVERYTHING about that animal. Well I have been interested in wolves since I was 3. I'm 20 now, do the math smile . Yeah. I research a lot. Male wolves, who are humping other male wolves are not telling them how much they love them. They are telling the other male that they are the bosses. And that they are the Alpha. The humanized packing system we use is a lot more in detail to what is really in a wolf's packing system in the wild. Also, if you didn't notice. The humping is above tail. And with many blood curling snarls usually. It is not marking 'mate' or 'marriage'. --Well some dogs hump other males without growling and they go after my couch and I've even seen moose do-- Hold.. On to that Q. And think. WHY do dogs mate? To say what is there's to make other babies =). Your dog is being dominant over your s**t when it's humping the couch. Your dog is showing dominance to that of the same gender. You have let your dog hump somewhere. Therefore it is now THEIR b***h. That couch is THEIR bed now. Moose are just retardedly amazing animals btw. Who think moose statues are real moose. DERP 8>>. It is not really that I mind your OCs being gay. I don't mind if your sparkle butt that you draw outside of my shop is gay at all! I think it's interesting oDo! And I love flamboyancy. I don't have many gay personas but I do have some smile . It's because it's in the nature of things, and reality. Like Vis have said before, she doesn't want this shop to turn into SoA, Soq, WT, and other shops who is running amuck with homosexual characters. (I have NOTHING against them, fyi. I am a bisexual myself and I have plenty of homosexual friends along with transgendered as well). She just want to stay true to the wolf's nature, wolf's breeding system. I know we might have pink, purple or whatever wolves running around but the breeding (aka male x female) and etc stays the same.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:41 pm
White Neko Chan I will have to agree with Thalion and Cait. But here is my two cents. It may happen with other types of animals even humans. But the thing is.. You cannot start a pack with a gay or lesbian couple.. That.. is just wrong. Mortally wrong. Wolves are among my favorite animals in the world. I have seen things in my life and Wolves having gay or lesbian partners is not one of them. I respect the wolves mainly because of their loyality to their pack especially their mates. The main goal to have a pack is to raise the cubs within it. with a mother.. AND A father. A mother has a job to do.. to teach certain things to the cubs. Whereas the father is mostly the guardian and will teach his next in line how to do things. I don't think it should be gays and lesbians doing this. It is not that I have anything against the culture at all. I was raised, knowing my own father is bi and I have an aunt that is getting married to her future wife. I even have a lesbian cousin. All I am saying is that.. let this wolf shop preserve the true being of wolves. Actually.. Both female and male wolves will fight and guard, or hunt. Yes. The female Alpha will stay with her pups the longest. And in reality with the whole breeding while we're on it. Alphas are the only ones to really breed. If a female of the pack does breed because of nature usually the Alpha takes in their pups too. Since in the wild the breeding only happens one season. Both females and males will hunt. Both females and males will guard. Males are just larger.
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:42 pm
I'm afflicted by the spirit known as the wolf - so I'm all understanding for this thought.
I'm personally bi-sexual with a strong female lean, but when it comes to my wolves (unless it's strictly fantasy based, like my fursona and her lifemate OC I created for her) then I prefer the natural approach. I love the fact that this shop clings to the original methods that mother nature has allotted for these creatures. It's definitely some sort of calming relief to know that there are some shops out there that still cling to things the way nature intended.
Nature nature nature... blah blah, nature.... That's what I hear when I reread this a little boozed up on rum and soda.
BUT Anyways. That's my two-cents.
Don't change your reasonings for no one, Vist! I GOT YER BACK!! scream
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Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:46 pm
Vis, I got what you were saying and I am aware of wolf == dog, I was adding a bit more info on the matter.nor was it directly pointed to you as I realize how educated you are in wolves, it was for others for thought. And change master to owner, maybe that makes it less... Word escapes me ATM. But I can see where master would not exactly fit.
What of the idea of how strong this bond is between the males? Bromance, brother-like, guardianship, or deep into "mates", using terms loosely.
I do agree with you all on the m/f aspect though.
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Reply
