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 Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:57 pm
I just read this a few minutes ago and I just HAD to share it with you guys. This is from a post in Live Journal.Quote: Janet Folger recently came to Portland State University to speak. (I'll write more about that later.) There was something that really got me thinking about abortion in a different way.
When and if abortion is made illegal, I think that history will look upon it as something that was evil and people will say "How could people have been so ignorant?" Really, it is worse than the Holocaust, speaking in numbers. We, of course, cannot see it. We are living in the here-and-now. Abortion doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
We are the people in Germany who just continued living their lives as the Jews and many others were being slaughtered. They also thought "They aren't people" or "Well, it's bad but there's nothing I can do" or, sadly, "There are worse things going on in the world." You may think it's stupid to compare ourselves to those people--but that's exactly who we are. Living our lives comfortably while thousands of babies are slaughtered every day.
And it was those people whose children, when it was all over, had a disgust--a disdain--with their parents, which still carries on today two generations later. "Where were you," they asked, "when the Jews were being killed? How could you have said there were other, more important things that needed to be dealt with? How could you have let this happen?"
40,000,000 dead since 1973, legally. History will look at legalized abortion through a very different light than we. When our children and grandchildren ask "Where were you when the babies were being killed? What did you do to stop it?", what will our answer be? I don't want my children to think little of my actions to help those who do not have a voice and who are legally
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:14 pm
What you say is definately right. If pro-life succeeds in making abortion illegal then the future will look back on abortion as a holocaust. Of course... One could argue the opposite is true as well.
Let's say abortion doesn't become illegal, but becomes the norm, and more than that becomes a protected right that belongs to women that is held on par with civil rights...
One could then say the future will look back and compare the attempt to strip women of the "right to abortion" to the attempts by whites to maintain the status quo of giving no basic civil rights to the black community in the 60s (ie pro-lifers would be equivalent to the vocal people who opposed civil rights). Or perhaps they'll look back and condemn the pro-life movement with the same fervor that people who opposed condoms and birth control in the 20s are given now, or the same condemnation given to men who said women ought not be allowed to vote.
If abortion is made illegal and that becomes the norm, everything you posted will become the future.
The point is this: The victors write the history book. Whoever wins the abortion debate will be the one to demonize the opposition, and that is what will be accepted by future generations. If pro-life legislation is the victor then the pro-choice side will be portrayed as the equivalent of nazis and abortion the holocaust. If the pro-choice side winds then the pro-life side will be portrayed as the equivalent of any number of groups.
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:23 pm
Talon this is the pro-life guild we discuss pro-life themes in terms of abortion. She was pointing something out from a pro-life view point and your post had nothing to do with the abortion debate.
You're here to discuss the abortion debate, and of course you can mingle with the people in the guild however this is not the pro-choice guild and while your debate points are welcomed your pro-choice view points are not. We're well aware of them and unless they're helping further either yours or our knowledge they serve no purpose in here.
Please be more conciencious about what you post in the future. If KP has a problem with this he can PM me, until then if your posts serve no purpose (outside the non-abortion related topics or hangout thead) I will delete them.
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:28 pm
Talon, I would disagree. If that were the case, then Blacks would still be slaves; It was the norm. No one was complaining about them when we colonized America. Yet there came to be a decision that it was -wrong- to treat them that way; Once that decision was made by a group of people, it became irreversible. I believe that, if for some strange reason slavery had stayed legal, there would still be people today who would be against it, and the anti-slave movement would not have been looked back on as a bunch of wackos.
If you are saying "If a large majority become for abortion," then of course. But that will never happen. Partially because many people aren't only against abortion because of value reasons, but also because of religion, and whatnot.
However, if abortion were made illegal, and stayed illegal over 40 years or whatever, it is quite conceivable that there would be very few Pro-Choicers left; Because the only fairly strong argument is the "Bodily integrity" one, and all it would take to take away that one is for people to be taught that the value of life is greater then the value of so-called bodily integrity.
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:49 pm
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:15 am
I'd also like to point out that although they are both very horrible things, slavery and genocide are different. Sure, slavery was an extremely negative thing in the history of the world but it didn't have the same death toll (in such a small time frame) as the holocaust or this baby-killing spree. I would rather be blamed for not doing anything about slavery (no matter what nationality) than for the murder of millions.
You really can't compare two things that are so vastly different.
P.S. Mira's a Nazi! heart domokun
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:21 am
Just because I am a dork and I was curious I worked out the math here.
Okay Holocaust (I'm starting it in 1939 [even though Kristalnaucht was in Novemeber] and ending in 1945) killed ~2,000,000 people each year. Going with the idea of 12,000,000 people total were killed.
Abortion (from 1973-2006) has killed ~1,212,121 fetii per year.
So I'm going to request from now on that people do not say that abortion is worse than the Holocaust (not saying anyone here ever has, but the livejournal post did and when you break it down by years the person is incorrect).
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:32 am
Wasn't the holocaust happening in multiple countries? The 1.2 million per year is only in the USA. What about in all other countries? Abortion isn't just happening in the US. There are well over 2 million children aborted each year worldwide, unless of course the US is where over half the abortions in the world take place. " Every year some 36-53 million unwanted pregnancies are terminated either legally or clandestinely by induced abortion throughout the world (3). The exact number is not known, as statistics on induced abortion are not always reliable due to underreporting even in countries where the practice is permitted and widely accepted, and as there is no adequate method to estimate the number of clandestine abortions. It is estimated that 30-50% of all women undergo at least one induced abortion during their lifetime." http://www.gfmer.ch/Books/Reproductive_health/Induced_abortion.htmlThanks for the source goes to broorel, once she gave me the statistic from a private medical journal discussing which type of procedure was medically safest, it was easy to find the link to the Geneva Foundation for Medical Education and Research.
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:06 am
Well I'm going off the number that the person gave (40,000,000) which over the course of the years (1973-2006) equates out to the number I gave.
Also the Holocaust MENTIONED in the OP was the Holocaust that took place in Germany.
Ergo, my post is correct with the numbering system due to the facts given.
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:08 am
But are your numbers only from Germany, or are your numbers from all the countries where the holocaust was happening? The OP didn't give the numbers of people killed in the holocaust, so you must have found that on your own, right?
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:12 am
lymelady But are your numbers only from Germany, or are your numbers from all the countries where the holocaust was happening? The Holocaust, when talking about the German Holocaust, is in relation to what was basically viewed as Germany at that time. All of what Germany had taken (Poland and Austria, which are where the camps were) WERE included in the description of Germany. Because of the whole thing of Hitler not wanting the Jews in main Germany because they were keeping unclean even for the killing. Just like if someone was to use Puerto Rico in relation to the amount of abortion in America. Even though it's not officially part of the States it is a part of the United States. If we really want to get technical and look up abortion death rates per year compared to death rates from holocaustic like activites the holocaust like activites (genocide) WOULD top it. Edit: Yes I did get that from my own. From the research that I did when I did a year long project ON the Holocaust and how it had been forgotten.
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:13 am
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-statistics.htm
Gemrany:
Initial Jewish Population= 566,000
Estimated % killed= 36%
Estimated killed = 200,000
Number of Survivors = 366,000
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:15 am
So 200,000 Jews were killed in Germany. That's a lot less than 1,200,000. Granted, I'm still looking for stats including the other people killed, but the initial statistics are indicating that abortion is in fact killing more people in one country than the number killed in germany.
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:23 am
There were 97,937 legal abortions in Germany in 1995. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004397.htmlIf there were 200,000 deaths in the same country over the course of 6 years during the holocaust, that's about 33,333 deaths per year in the holocaust in Germany alone.
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Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:28 am
If a fetus is not a person, then you're right, the holocaust was much worse than abortion, because abortion kills no people. Oh wait, the holocaust killed no "people," did it? Let me rephrase that. If a fetus is REALLY not a person and not just subjectively ruled a non-person to fit the needs of other people, then you're right, the holocaust killed more. But if a fetus is a person, then no, abortion kills more people per year than the holocaust did, and yes, we can compare ourselves to the Germans who knew that people were being killed but ignored it.
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