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Pagan Elders and Big Name Pagans

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Sanguina Cruenta
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:01 am


Inspired by a comment made by Starhawk. (I suppose she's good for something, eh?) I wrote the following in the book club thread after finding the sentence in question:

Quote:
In her notes for page 63 she laughs about how she called herself and the other coven members elders, although they were technically by CoG standards. She says "what this sentence brings home to me now is how few true elders we had to guide us". It's a talking point, really, comparing then to now, as there are still very few elders outside of specific coven traditions to guide new witches. The big famous names turn out to be nothing but overhyped windbags, from Starhawk herself (as I am currently discovering) to Oberon Zell-Ravenheart (I still keep wanting to call him "Otter") to... who is there, even? Bonewits is dead now, and he was one of the rarities who seemed a bit sensible. Buckland I just don't have time for. Cunningham was a sweet thing but, again, quite dead. Seriously, how many BNPs are there, really, who aren't twits or upstart Llewellyn authors?


Sensible authors tend to stay within one quite specific religion. I mean, I think I'd count Kveldulf Gundarsson, seeing as he seems sensible nowadays, he has a big voice in a Pagan organization and if I met him at a faire or something... well I'm shy so probably I wouldn't say anything. But I wouldn't imagine myself lobbing rotten fruit at his head either.

I think I'd shake my head at Janet and Stewart is dead. Who else. Vivianne Crowley? She seems relatively sensible, but also quite specific and to be honest I don't think enough people have read her for her to have the sort of leader role that Starhawk appeared to be suggesting.

Aside from individuals within your own covens, can you think of any pagan or craft elders?

(Personally when I hear the term "craft elder" I think "elder of this craft" not "elder of wider witchcraft" as that's the way I infer it being used within the context of Wicca.)
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:48 am


In Wicca- Elder is a term earned by High Priests and High Priestess- and there are similar social standings around people who practice Hoodoo and Vodou respectively.

My HPS is considered an Elder of her tradition, I could be wrong but I think she even gave talks at Pantheacon.

Esiris
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CalledTheRaven
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 1:11 pm


Sanguina Cruenta
Sensible authors tend to stay within one quite specific religion. I mean, I think I'd count Kveldulf Gundarsson, seeing as he seems sensible nowadays, he has a big voice in a Pagan organization and if I met him at a faire or something... well I'm shy so probably I wouldn't say anything. But I wouldn't imagine myself lobbing rotten fruit at his head either.

I think I'd shake my head at Janet and Stewart is dead. Who else. Vivianne Crowley? She seems relatively sensible, but also quite specific and to be honest I don't think enough people have read her for her to have the sort of leader role that Starhawk appeared to be suggesting.

Aside from individuals within your own covens, can you think of any pagan or craft elders?

(Personally when I hear the term "craft elder" I think "elder of this craft" not "elder of wider witchcraft" as that's the way I infer it being used within the context of Wicca.)
I can't actually think of any myself. At least not any that I really trust. I'd have to think a bit more on it. Though maybe Paxon would be on a similar level with Gundarsson for me.

By the way, speaking of Gundarsson (in his not so sensible days) have you ever read Teutonic Magic? It's...well its certainly interesting. I'm glad he seems to have matured somewhat.
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:30 am


Uh...I don't know any elders per se, but I guess there is one well known Aussie Pagan...her name is Wendy Rule. I guess she's a little like Starhawk...only she sings as well...

iKillCaustic

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Sanguina Cruenta
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:45 am


CalledTheRaven
I can't actually think of any myself. At least not any that I really trust. I'd have to think a bit more on it. Though maybe Paxon would be on a similar level with Gundarsson for me.

By the way, speaking of Gundarsson (in his not so sensible days) have you ever read Teutonic Magic? It's...well its certainly interesting. I'm glad he seems to have matured somewhat.


I haven't, but I did hear that there was a book he wrote ages ago and he admitted he was totally high when he wrote it, or something like that. I suspected it was that one so I didn't go out of my way to buy it wink
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:17 am


Maybe the reason that so many respectable elders aren't on any "Big Names" list is because they are too busy doing their religious thing to seek publicity?

Esiris
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TheyCallMeJustiursa

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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:14 pm


Esiris
Maybe the reason that so many respectable elders aren't on any "Big Names" list is because they are too busy doing their religious thing to seek publicity?

This. Or I would suspect they dont care to have that level of reputation. I know I wouldnt want to be well known for that. If everywhere I went I was know as "That Pagan Guy Who Wrote That Book" or "That Pagan Guy Who Knows Stuff" I would be annoyed. Maybe they just dont seek out the attention.
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:35 pm


But it's not about them seeking attention it's just about the reputation they gain in the community. If you are good at what you do and you have a lot of knowledge to share you sort of gain a reputation. As for not wanting to teach or share what you know to avoid a reputation or attention I think that would sort of remove you from the group we're talking about. I would think an "elder" isn't just someone who's been doing this for a while but also a teacher.

And San, as for Teutonic Magic, I would not be at all surprised to find out he wrote it while high. I found it at a used book store and thought I'd check it out because I've heard good things about Gundarsson. It's pretty bad, but also kind of funny in its wrongness.

CalledTheRaven
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Sanguina Cruenta
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:38 pm


That's sort of more what I mean - I'm talking about someone who's an Elder in the wider Pagan community, because I'm bouncing off've Starhawk's apparent assumption that there are plenty of them around. By "Elder" in this instance I'm talking not so much about a community leader, although that may be a part of it, but someone to look up to and ask for guidance and so on. And if you haven't heard of 'em, they can't really be that for you.

There are elders within particular religions and traditions, but no one really for those just starting out except for people who aren't respectable at all masquerading (whether or not they even want to) as community elders. And that isn't really good for anyone.
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