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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:32 am
This would be an informal guide to how to design good ideas for rings and such. Good meaning that the critique and balancing of the ideas wouldn't have to go through what seem to be the basic problems, so to speak, that make the rings not fit well with zOMG, first before going through improving specific issues and such. To help guide people towards designing feasible ideas for rings, areas, enemies, etc. - what general rules and principles might we suggest? What processes might we suggest (and helpful strategies)? Of course, the first rule would be that the rules are just guidelines and breaking the rules for a reason is good. It's an art form, and the rules aren't perfect. My ideas (to be added on to, edited, fixed, reworded, etc. as discussion continues). Most are already taken from where other people articulated them much better than I did (before I even thought too much about them in words). Rings - - Rings are based off of concepts and ideas (mostly cliches) more than actual physical weapons (for example Slashing and Hacking, rather than Cutlass or Sword). If it does reference an actual item, it's general vague about it (for example, GunsGunsGuns - what type of gun? who knows? who cares? Shark Attack is just the idea of a shark attacking, not throwing a specific shark at someone.). - Rings should appeal to all styles, even if aimed and especially fitting for one particular one. [need a better word than styles - I mean, flavors: such as the people who like to be Ninjas, those who like to be modern day princesses, those who like to be dark goth somethings, etc. - this is a big problem for a lot of DARK VAMPIRE BLOOD CURSED SWORD ring ideas] When in doubt, aim towards the whimsical. Actually, when not in doubt, still aim a bit towards whimsical. zOMG is pretty whimsical. - Don't make rings that are super powerful, no matter whether they are rare, expensive, or whatever: Quote: You see, the thing is, zOMG! relies on balance - balance is intrinsic to the Ring System. Every Ring costs the same amount to equip - one slot. You're converting that one slot into benefit. Having these "Ultimate Rings" converts that same one slot into a greater benefit - anyone who had them would always equip them. This harms not only the individuality that the ring system is based on (it's intended to mirror Gaia's avatar system, as an expressive outlet), but the balance that the game's difficulty is based on (most of the game assumes that a player has 8 rings equipped; factoring in "Ultimates", that player may have power equivalent to 9, 10, or even more rings, and there's no way for the game to compensate for that without becoming inaccessible to average players). - As a corollary, rings which are super powerful with extreme costs to compensate... generally don't work well. Example would be Turtle. It gives total protection against any damage... for 15 seconds at the highest rage while having a giant cooldown time. People just don't use it because there's such little use for it. It's so powerful, but too much trouble to tap into the power. - Rings should have something which distinguishes them from other rings. - Don't be afraid to think of rings which would need new game mechanics to handle... but be reasonable (and the mechanics should be useful for more than just that one ring) - Watch out for rings which can adversely affect other players without their consent (for trolling issues). - Maybe a ring guide link and some instructions on how to use those to get a feel for how much balance a ring might need? Areas - - Maps tend to have one or two instances, several NPCs, music, scenery, animated, paths, quests, etc. Plan accordingly. - Maps should be fairly quick to access. If it takes half the game time just to get to the map, who would want to roam there? - To keep people from exploring too far into a map before they are ready for it, placing animated which are dangerous within reason may work (or, like in Zen Gardens, tricky animated like the innocent looking passive cherry fluffs). Don't make it too much of a pain, though - Think about what the main threats (in game) in your area are. Have people been thrown out by mobilizing animated armies (Village Greens, Zen Gardens)? Is it the middle of a warzone between different enemies (Old Aqueduct)? What was your area like before the animated came? Who, or which animated, are allied together (or using each other to further their purposes)? What is the response of the NPCs around it - are they ignorant, scared, disturbed, or simply overworked? Enemies (mostly animated and boss animated) - - Dastardly Animated Strategies link (as an "if you run out of ideas for what your animated can do to challenge people...")? razz - Generally, animated should be kept around where they attack and are attacked by players around their level (so they don't get wiped out and they don't just wipe out lower players arbitrarily). - Animated should be fun to fight against, for a large amount of people. Some people might want a greater challenge than you do, and some might not like to be as frustrated and challenged as you do. Consider the animated's level, intent (is it just a run of the mill filler animated? a boss? an area denying animated?), and what people will expect from it when you're trying to balance this. - Animated often work in groups. How would your animated work together to fight (if they do)? How would they interact with other animated around them?
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:03 pm
And remember: Be Original. here, you don't have to go looking for it. This guide would need a major text reformatting overhaul. Making each individual point more apparent. You can't just leave it like this. Eh, but that takes time, and you might not be done with it, understandably.
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:31 pm
Quintafeira12 And remember: Be Original. here, you don't have to go looking for it. This guide would need a major text reformatting overhaul. Making each individual point more apparent. You can't just leave it like this. Eh, but that takes time, and you might not be done with it, understandably.
I remember him talking about making a Style Guide for suggestions some time back - I think this was just him getting the basics laid out, for now. And personally, I'm glad to see it coming to fruition - it'll make a great reference to those who are new to zOMG! suggestions. I've personally given advice similar to this to a number of ring suggestors, and it'd be great to have a single reference for all of it. And, really, I think Atrash has a better grip than most anyone I've seen on just what makes up zOMG! style, so it makes sense that he'd be the one writing up a Style Guide. If you want some help formatting, though, I might could manage that much. sweatdrop
Also, I'd probably save the "break these rules" rule for last, but that's just me - if you put it first, people will spend the whole time they're reading looking for ways to subvert the rules, rather than understanding the value to them; if you put it last, people see that the ideas they'd thrown out because they break the rules are still possible, but they now have a strong basis for making them viable. But, again, maybe that's just my interpretation. I do believe that that's probably the single-most important rule of design, but it's also the most misunderstood, and the one that leads to the most bad design. A powerful tool, but very dangerous...
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:16 pm
Red Kutai Quintafeira12 And remember: Be Original. here, you don't have to go looking for it. This guide would need a major text reformatting overhaul. Making each individual point more apparent. You can't just leave it like this. Eh, but that takes time, and you might not be done with it, understandably.
I remember him talking about making a Style Guide for suggestions some time back - I think this was just him getting the basics laid out, for now. And personally, I'm glad to see it coming to fruition - it'll make a great reference to those who are new to zOMG! suggestions. I've personally given advice similar to this to a number of ring suggestors, and it'd be great to have a single reference for all of it. And, really, I think Atrash has a better grip than most anyone I've seen on just what makes up zOMG! style, so it makes sense that he'd be the one writing up a Style Guide. If you want some help formatting, though, I might could manage that much. sweatdrop
Also, I'd probably save the "break these rules" rule for last, but that's just me - if you put it first, people will spend the whole time they're reading looking for ways to subvert the rules, rather than understanding the value to them; if you put it last, people see that the ideas they'd thrown out because they break the rules are still possible, but they now have a strong basis for making them viable. But, again, maybe that's just my interpretation. I do believe that that's probably the single-most important rule of design, but it's also the most misunderstood, and the one that leads to the most bad design. A powerful tool, but very dangerous...
Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Putting it first means people won't start denying it immediately thinking it's wrong because it's stifling creativity into rules... but I think more people would have the problem you suggest, so it's best to put that last. And yeah, this is very very rough at the moment. I'm trying to flush out what points need to be covered, then go through and reword them, 'cause I suck at wording things (unless I write a page for each point, which would be painful to read). If someone could go through and make catchier phrases for them all, that would be sweet. I'm also not sure where I'd put this in the end - is it a good thread for the z!F, to be split up for each subforum here, to be placed in the main forum here... or what? Same with which things should get covered (any major design types I'm missing? should powerups get their own thing, for example? What about minievents?), which ideas are really that important, and how to structure each of these (a list of tips? a sort of path of how to go from idea to design, with tips interspersed? tips then path? path then tips? something else entirely? scream ), and what the catchiest formatting will be. Also, while I do have some experience with making ring ideas, I have rather little with the other two categories, so if there are people who have a bit more expertise in that, that would be handy.
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:53 pm
Atrash the Squidmonger I'm also not sure where I'd put this in the end - is it a good thread for the z!F, to be split up for each subforum here, to be placed in the main forum here... or what?
Well, I'd like to keep a copy here, at the very least - either in the main forum, or the Miscellaneous one, as a Reference (I'm not sure where References fit the best, really). Personally, I'd like to see it out in z!F as well, and included in the Guides and Resources Sticky, to boot. If you'd prefer, it would still be easy enough to link to the thread from here, but I think having it in the main Forum would prove much more generally accessible.
Quote: Same with which things should get covered (any major design types I'm missing? should powerups get their own thing, for example? What about minievents?), which ideas are really that important, and how to structure each of these (a list of tips? a sort of path of how to go from idea to design, with tips interspersed? tips then path? path then tips? something else entirely? scream ), and what the catchiest formatting will be.
The problem with a path is that, even if we divide designs into two different formats (top-down and bottom-up), there are a lot of intricacies to account for. Every design is different, and it's the designer's duty to do what the design wants or needs, rather than trying to force the design into a precise path. I know that even a list of tips poses much the same problem, though, and that the path would make for a very good guide for those who genuinely don't know how to communicate their ideas. Hmm.
Given that, I'd probably go with tips first, then path - by the time someone gets to the step-by-step guide, then, they will already have the basis they need for doing it on their own, if they'd rather. Moreover, they will have already heard the last rule ("Break these rules."), so they'll understand that the purpose of the path is more guidance, than anything, and that using it is just designed to make the process easier. But, again, that's how it comes across to me - others may not interpret it the same way, so there may be a more effective way to apply it to a larger audience. sweatdrop
Quote: Also, while I do have some experience with making ring ideas, I have rather little with the other two categories, so if there are people who have a bit more expertise in that, that would be handy.
Thard's had a Forum thread on a new instance once, and I've made a couple (in here  ), but I think the general concepts are mostly the same. Designing a map area or instance simply involves more - props, details, NPCs, and the various other things that give our environments depth - than general suggestions do. Not that a brief or shallow area suggestion is bad (it leaves plenty of room to grow), but all we can really do is give some extra hints about what additional things to think about when creating it...
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:38 am
Some minor edits made (a couple new ideas I came up with - I'm working on trying to get all the necessary ideas before I start bothering with phrasing and formatting too much*).
*Of course, if you want to bother with that now and make something shiny, that would be neat.
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:46 pm
Minor point, but it never occured to me that it might be necessary: never let this happen ever again... gonk
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:43 am
Red Kutai
Minor point, but it never occured to me that it might be necessary: never let this happen ever again... gonk
What the? But tha...? A ? ? ? gonk So... "don't design things that already exist"? Or maybe a format section giving some advice on breaking things into paragraphs and sections, logical order, grammar, spelling (not so much in this one, but we see grammar and spelling errors, to the point of total confusion in some ideas), and ideas of how to flesh out ideas to express ideas fully - but without just flooding people with example over actual idea?
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Atrash the Squidmonger Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:28 pm
Atrash the Squidmonger Red Kutai
Minor point, but it never occured to me that it might be necessary: never let this happen ever again... gonk
What the? But tha...? A ? ? ? gonk So... "don't design things that already exist"? Or maybe a format section giving some advice on breaking things into paragraphs and sections, logical order, grammar, spelling (not so much in this one, but we see grammar and spelling errors, to the point of total confusion in some ideas), and ideas of how to flesh out ideas to express ideas fully - but without just flooding people with example over actual idea?
Maybe just a brief section on presentation, if we feel like going that far. Basically, just reminding people that no matter how good their idea may be, nobody's going to be able to appreciate it without a little clarity.
I feel bad for the poor guy who made that thread. He was really excited about all of his suggestions, but nobody was able to take them seriously (I tried, I really did! gonk ) because of the formatting. I don't think we really need to go over grammar and basic sentence structure, but a small reminder that they should be keeping those things in mind might help... sweatdrop
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Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:06 pm
If you ever get to go around and do something too serious with this, you can just go to the Test Forum and make a "dud" suggestion with proper format to use as example. Every time you would make a point on what should and should not be done, you could redirect to that suggestion. Or you could go and find other already existing ones.
But that's only if you got around to take this too seriously. It is work and it is your free time.
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Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:29 am
Alright, I've been going over this in my head for a while, now - trying to get an idea of how the process goes. Feel free to throw in your input, as you see fit.
Naturally, you always start with an idea. Depending on whether the idea is conceptual or mechanical, this can produce either a 'top-down' (concept-to-mechanic) or 'bottom-up' (mechanic-to-concept) design. Either way, though, you always wind up going through all of the steps. This leads me to believe that this section of the process is actually a loop.
Concept/Mechanic Loop
It involves repeatedly fitting a mechanic to your concept (or vice-versa), then making sure that the concept still fits the mechanic, then making sure the mechanic still fits the concept, and so on. You continually refine the idea to make sure the mechanic and concept stay intuitive and organic to each other, and once you can make a couple loops without any changes, you're good to go. Normally, the human brain will go through a simplified version of this process very quickly, but it's a good idea to do it manually, as well; the extra focus helps to ensure that the ideas that get through really do fit well together.
Well, once you've got a concept and a mechanic worked out, you're pretty much set - apparently that loop marks the most significant portion of the design effort. The next step is actually a development concern, but it's certainly worth a mention: balance.
Balance
This involves, primarily, comparing what your designing to similar extent designs; rings to rings, enemies to enemies, areas to areas. It involves picking out damage values, enemy CLs, area CL ranges, and keeping in mind what they'll be alongside; not letting melee attacks be exclusively better than Hack, not dropping high-CL enemies into beginner areas, and not placing a new CL 11.0 area right outside the Village Greens. The first part of the process should've covered making things make sense; this is just about getting the numbers right.
I suspect there's a lot more detail that could be had inside the Concept/Mechanic Loop, actually; like Research (If your concept is a mosquito, look up how mosquitoes work; if your mechanic is a ranged ring that deals more damage to enemies that are nearby, look up melee weapons that can be thrown. Things like that.), as well as specific guidelines for different design types (Ring Concept/Mechanics have different 'rules' than Enemy Concept/Mechanics). But this is, I believe, the basic outline of the process:
Idea
↓
Concept ←→ Mechanic
↓
Balance
I'll start thinking up how to list some basic guidelines for design, next. Once this thread sparked the idea, though, my head got wrapped around it, so I've been pondering on just how the process works for a while, now... sweatdrop
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