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Do not force your children to go to other religions' religious services against their will.
Amen!
87%
 87%  [ 7 ]
I think it's a bit more complicated than that...
12%
 12%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 8


Lumanny the Space Jew

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:35 am


A few months ago my mom was redecorating the house and she put up several Buddha statues, including two in her room.
Lumanny: Umm... We're Jewish, not Buddhist....
Lumommy: I just like how they look.


But then she went to Buddhist Prayer services one Sunday...

Today she picked me up from a sleepover and tried to make me go to Buddhist services. I was told I had no choice. I said I didn't want to go. She said she didn't care. I said it wasn't fair. She said fine, it's not fair, it's still happening. I said I was up late last night because my Colitis was flaring (which is actually true). She dropped me off at home.

Is my Mom a Bu-Jew?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:05 am


Speak to your rav, please, because I am not completely certain of what the ruling would be. My instinct is to say that having the statue is avodah zarah (foreign worship), or at the very least marit ayin (appearance of wrondoing); but again, I am not a rav and can't speak with authority on this.

For certain you shouldn't be forced to go to religious services against your will. However, if you are, take it as an opportunity to learn something about other beliefs and cultures. Figure out what it is that's attracting your mom to this pathway, and ask your rav to show you how to demonstrate that it is also available in Judaism... because it IS there, if you study to find it.

Divash
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Call Me Apple

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:33 pm


Wow....she made you go? What the heck?


But yeah, Buddha statues and other statues are dangerously close to Idol Worship, isnt that not allowed in Judaism too?

I think your mom may just be testing the waters. Honestly, my mom was drawn to Buddhism too and dabbled in it for like a year. Then she decided Buddhism had some wise ideas but the stayed in the Abrahamic scope.

I agree w/ Divash when she said talk to your Rav (Idk what this is?).
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:44 pm


Call Me Apple
Wow....she made you go? What the heck?


But yeah, Buddha statues and other statues are dangerously close to Idol Worship, isnt that not allowed in Judaism too?

I think your mom may just be testing the waters. Honestly, my mom was drawn to Buddhism too and dabbled in it for like a year. Then she decided Buddhism had some wise ideas but the stayed in the Abrahamic scope.

I agree w/ Divash when she said talk to your Rav (Idk what this is?).

She tried to make me go but I had been flaring at 2 AM last night and when I told her that she relented.
But if my meds work I will not be flaring so much in the future, so...
I might get forced to go.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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Call Me Apple

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:46 pm


Lumanny the Space Jew

She tried to make me go but I had been flaring at 2 AM last night and when I told her that she relented.
But if my meds work I will not be flaring so much in the future, so...
I might get forced to go.


Oh sorry! I misread, hehe.

Have you talked to your dad about this by the way?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 12:49 pm


Call Me Apple
Lumanny the Space Jew

She tried to make me go but I had been flaring at 2 AM last night and when I told her that she relented.
But if my meds work I will not be flaring so much in the future, so...
I might get forced to go.


Oh sorry! I misread, hehe.

Have you talked to your dad about this by the way?

He's technically not a Jewish husband, but he's acting like one. Won't take a stand. He's a Catholic, he married a Jew, now she's a Bu-Jew, he's just kind of going with the flow.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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Divash
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:14 pm


Call Me Apple
But yeah, Buddha statues and other statues are dangerously close to Idol Worship, isnt that not allowed in Judaism too?


Idol worshipping is absolutely disallowed in Judaism. There is actually a question as to whether having a statue of a Buddha is idolatry, however, because even a Buddhist does not worship Buddha, only uses the Buddha's example for guidance.

Then there's the question of representational art. Not all representational art is forbidden in Judaism, unlike in Islam -- only images that are carved/engraved/sculpted. Photographs, paintings, and the like are permitted.

Then there's the question of whether a Jew is permitted to enter a Buddhist worship space. The answer depends on whether the space is being actively used for worship (devoted to any entity other than Hashem/God/Allah) or simply for meditation at that time; whether there are statues of Buddhas on display; whether those statues are being faced directly during meditation or worship; whether one is visibly Jewish and therefore could be seen as a Jew going into a non-Jewish worship situation.

Lots of considerations, all of which should be discussed with a rav.

Call Me Apple
I agree w/ Divash when she said talk to your Rav (Idk what this is?).


Rav is Hebrew for rabbi, though the literal translation is "master" or "great person." It's also directly related to the word rabbah, meaning great, and rabu, meaning manifold, as in "Mah rabu ma'asechah, Hashem (How manifold are your acts, God)," a line from one of the Hebrew Psalms, which also appears in several prayers. A rav is a man who has been given ordination and is certified to answer in-depth questions on Jewish law and observance, both practical and theoretical. He can also be a spiritual leader of a congregation; a kosher butcher; a teacher of Jewish religious law; an expert on kosher certification procedure; or a "singing rabbi," also known as a cantor in English or a chazzan in Hebrew, which means he maintains the tradition of Jewish liturgical music and trop.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:09 am


For in-depth understanding of the relationship between Buddhism and Judaism, I recommend the books "Zen Judaism" and "Jew in the Lotus." They make the argument that Judaism and Buddhism are complementary to one another. However, in order to know whether that argument is valid or not, you have to understand the intricacies of Buddhism just as much as those of Judaism.

Most sects of Buddhism (such as Theravada and Zen) are primarily methods of meditation as taught by Gotama/Gautama and his disciples. The practice of Upposatha (Buddhist sabbath) and the various Buddhist holidays are really window dressing that were adopted by Buddhist practitioners of various East and South-East Asian religions. In that respect, the practices are very pliable and it's only the methods of introspection that matter.

On the other hand, you have Vajrayana and the Tibetan schools of Mahayana which actually DO worship Buddhas as though they were Hindu deities. Obviously, that is NOT compatible with Judaism in the very least. There are Theravada meditation teachers whose Jewish students say sh'ma as part of or before their meditation. In Vajrayana, there is no room for that whatsoever.

Also, some forms of Buddhism require a conversion process in which one accepts the precepts (rules of conduct) and takes "Refuge" in the Buddha, Dhamma/Dharma and Sangha (and sometimes the guru.) I am not a Rabbi, but that comes awful close to foreign worship.

Now I do not condone dragging others to places of worship against their will. In fact Buddhism almost universally frowns upon such behavior. If you are ever forced to go to a Buddhist temple, then I suggest you tell the person leading the service that you're there against your will. Chances are, your mother will get a crash course in Buddhist ethics.

Dr. Awkward

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Divash
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:28 am


Dr. Awkward
... in order to know whether that argument is valid or not, you have to understand the intricacies of Buddhism just as much as those of Judaism. [...] On the other hand, you have Vajrayana and the Tibetan schools of Mahayana which actually DO worship Buddhas as though they were Hindu deities.


According to the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism does not understand ANY deity to exist, ANY human being as having supremacy or creative power over another, and therefore no, they do not worship the (any) Buddha as a deity.

The rest of what you said about Buddhism, I have no grounding to confirm or refute. My main point is, even when one thinks they understand, they may not in fact understand. It is very, very difficult to truly know one's own religion, let alone another's. I am not a rav, but my non-authoritative advice would be to avoid any non-Jewish worship spaces, services, or meditations unless cleared with your rav/competent halachic authority.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:44 am


Lets do this.

If your mom took you to a bhuddist temple to practice bhuddism at the temple and take and active part in their ceremony... then that violates a commandment I do believe.

If your mom took you to a bhuddist temple in order to observe bhuddism being practiced and just sat in a corner, kept her mouth shut and just admired it for the beauty and the aesthetic nature of it... then that is fine, because it is an educational knowledge building thing which is a mitzvah in a way I do believe.

at least that is how I am reading it.

EDITED : I do occasionally get involved with Pagan Holidays, and go as an observer, not to revere the green man, but only to hang out with friends, spend a weekend in the woods and get drunk.

LordNeuf
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Dr. Awkward

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:57 am


Divash
Dr. Awkward
... in order to know whether that argument is valid or not, you have to understand the intricacies of Buddhism just as much as those of Judaism. [...] On the other hand, you have Vajrayana and the Tibetan schools of Mahayana which actually DO worship Buddhas as though they were Hindu deities.


According to the Dalai Lama, Tibetan Buddhism does not understand ANY deity to exist, ANY human being as having supremacy or creative power over another, and therefore no, they do not worship the (any) Buddha as a deity.
The Dalai Lama only has the authority to speak for one of four schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Some schools of Tibetan Buddhism don't even have monks but married clergy, so that their gurus can more fully practice Karma Mudra.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:51 pm


LordNeuf
Lets do this.

If your mom took you to a bhuddist temple to practice bhuddism at the temple and take and active part in their ceremony... then that violates a commandment I do believe.

If your mom took you to a bhuddist temple in order to observe bhuddism being practiced and just sat in a corner, kept her mouth shut and just admired it for the beauty and the aesthetic nature of it... then that is fine, because it is an educational knowledge building thing which is a mitzvah in a way I do believe.

at least that is how I am reading it.

EDITED : I do occasionally get involved with Pagan Holidays, and go as an observer, not to revere the green man, but only to hang out with friends, spend a weekend in the woods and get drunk.

I am willing to argue that if I willingly go, there's a chance it could be an enlightening experience.
But forcing me against my will? That has GOT to be unethical.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:55 am


Lumanny the Space Jew

I am willing to argue that if I willingly go, there's a chance it could be an enlightening experience.
But forcing me against my will? That has GOT to be unethical.


Well under religious ethos, so long as she is not forcing you to take part in it, then you're fine.

Under mother/son ethics, you're supposed to listen to your mom, hell my mom has me do things I don't want to do all the time. Usually involves the garden.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:55 pm


LordNeuf
Lumanny the Space Jew

I am willing to argue that if I willingly go, there's a chance it could be an enlightening experience.
But forcing me against my will? That has GOT to be unethical.


Well under religious ethos, so long as she is not forcing you to take part in it, then you're fine.

Under mother/son ethics, you're supposed to listen to your mom, hell my mom has me do things I don't want to do all the time. Usually involves the garden.
The Orthodox Rabbi at my school says the commandment to honor the parents has a halachic caviat: You are actually NOT supposed to listen to them if they tell you to disobey the halacha.
That's why I can't write off my unkosher eating as eating my loving parents' cooking.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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LordNeuf
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:00 pm


So then go to the Bhuddist Temple, experience it and re-affirm your Judiasm by rejecting taking part in it.

Just because you're Jewish doesn't mean you're an isolationist to avoid other cultures that they may influence your thinking and lifestyle.

Also

*Lumanny's Mom's Voice* I PULLED THIS LOBSTER OUT OF THE OCEAN WITH MY BARE HANDS!!! NOW PUT UP SOME WATER!
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