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 Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:59 pm
This guild takes the view that the Druids were a caste in Celtic societies, were wiped out, and that use of the word in modern society to apply to oneself is inappropriate. This guild is aware of the existence of several "Druid" orders and disapproves of their use of the title in this way. This thread exists to keep all future discussions of the use of the word "Druid" in one place. Please use this thread if you wish to question the guild's stance. There is a sticky with more information about the guild's view here.Thank you.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:18 pm
Were the Druids of one group similar or the same as the people in another group? Like would the Irish Druids have considered the Manx Druids the same?
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:33 pm
Hard to say. we just don't have that much information. That what happens when you have an entirely oral tradition.
Another thing is that Druids were actually much more prevelant on the European continent. Mostly because there was more space. They were part of the culture of Gaul, which covered a rather large area at one time. However, everyone tends to associate Druids with Ireland and the British Ilse, mostly because the Gaelic/Celtic culture survived in those place for much longer.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:41 pm
Esiris Were the Druids of one group similar or the same as the people in another group? Like would the Irish Druids have considered the Manx Druids the same? I have no idea. I don't even know if they'd have thought of one another as "Celtic"; I don't know when the word originated. I imagine they would have thought of one another as of a similarly learned group, though. I'm fairly sure the word "Druid" in English comes from either Irish or Welsh, or both, but outside of that I don't know. There are two subsets of Celtic languages. I don't know much about the old Druids really ^_^ or about the Celtic cultures. I know what I've picked up from here and there. But Ronald Hutton has written a couple of books about them.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:53 pm
Actually, calling them Gauls, and later Gaelic would be more accurate I think. From what I learned in history class, the word Celtic was largely an invention of the same 19th century Romantics that you lamented in your sticky. I don't know where they came up with it though.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:15 pm
CalledTheRaven Actually, calling them Gauls, and later Gaelic would be more accurate I think. From what I learned in history class, the word Celtic was largely an invention of the same 19th century Romantics that you lamented in your sticky. I don't know where they came up with it though. The Gauls were the French lot, weren't they? Well, the Greeks had the word "Keltoi" which I assumed the Romans used... looking it up now it looks like they used it for the Gauls but not for the British Isles lot.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:32 pm
Oh, and if anyone has any info-dumps or approprate links for the Druid info thread please chuck 'em up.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:31 pm
By the time the Romans started refering to the Keltoi yes (you're right, it was the Romans, don't know how I forgot that, but no one else really used it between then and the time the Romantics found it), but it initially went well beyond France. Gaul (as a cultural distinction) covered a lot of western Europe until the Romans decided they wanted it. It actually had a lot of Crossover with the Germanic tribes at one time. And the "Celtic" culture started there. It's all kind of weird and fluid.
What would become Ireland was inhabited by the Scots, Scotland by the Picts, and England by the Britons and the Welsh actually lived in Wales. They all sort of picked up Celtic culture through trading with the closest peoples on the continent, namely the Gauls/Celts. They'd absorbed it pretty thoroughly by the time the Anglo-Saxons invaded. The Celts may have been more actual migration to Ireland on the parts of the Celts but I'm not sure. Recent finding do indicate that there were never actually any invading Celts in Britain, just trader and the like. This is mostly according to the History of England to 1688 class I took last semester.
And I'm a bad history student, saying all this as though it's a bunch of certainties and absolutes. It's not. This is just the best we can come up with for now. A lot of this stuff is really fuzzy and in ten years the prevailing theories may be completely different.
Also, I wish I had an info-dump on Druids. The most I really know about them is that one of the reasons their tradition didn't survive is that it was entirely oral. I was apparently forbidden to write any of it down, so you kill them and you kill their knowledge.
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Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:49 pm
Cu was always referring to the Gael culture, so I've always associated Druids with them in particular. A couple of old M&R threads for anyone who is interested... DruidsDruidry
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:08 am
They did survive in Gaelic Ireland longer than elsewhere so that makes sense.
Also, please correct anything I've said if you know it to be wrong. Sometimes my brain mushes things together and they get confused. I'd rather be told about my mistakes.
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:21 am
Nothing in particular springs to mind, Raven.
Wikipedia has awesome maps of how far the Celtic cultures stretched. They went way across near to Turkey at one point.
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:20 pm
There were Celtic-speaking people in Turkey, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Northern Italy, Great Britain and Spain... La Tene material culture (what archaeologist consider Celtic) was centered mostly in Switzerland, France, and Britain, with the earlier Halstatt culture (arguably not Celtic but generic Germano-Celtic) focused mostly in the area of Austria and Germany. You'll see a big argument over whether or not a La Tene culture existed in Spain, but there were definitely Celtic-speaking peoples living there regardless. Um... yeah. I'm Gaulish Recon and am an archaeology student with a focus on the Continental Celts. Julius Caesar on the Druids of Gaul: Quote: The former are engaged in things sacred, conduct the public and the private sacrifices, and interpret all matters of religion. To these a large number of the young men resort for the purpose of instruction, and they [the Druids] are in great honor among them. For they determine respecting almost all controversies, public and private; and if any crime has been perpetrated, if murder has been committed, if there be any dispute about an inheritance, if any about boundaries, these same persons decide it; they decree rewards and punishments; if any one, either in a private or public capacity, has not submitted to their decision, they interdict him from the sacrifices. This among them is the most heavy punishment. Those who have been thus interdicted are esteemed in the number of the impious and the criminal: all shun them, and avoid their society and conversation, lest they receive some evil from their contact; nor is justice administered to them when seeking it, nor is any dignity bestowed on them. Over all these Druids one presides, who possesses supreme authority among them. Upon his death, if any individual among the rest is pre-eminent in dignity, he succeeds; but, if there are many equal, the election is made by the suffrages of the Druids; sometimes they even contend for the presidency with arms. These assemble at a fixed period of the year in a consecrated place in the territories of the Carnutes, which is reckoned the central region of the whole of Gaul. Hither all, who have disputes, assemble from every part, and submit to their decrees and determinations. This institution is supposed to have been devised in Britain, and to have been brought over from it into Gaul; and now those who desire to gain a more accurate knowledge of that system generally proceed thither for the purpose of studying it. I'm not really fond of this translation, but it's the earliest link describing a connection between Druids and Britain. The word itself in Latin is druides and probably comes from P-Celtic dru- and uidos which might mean "oak/tree knowledge", assuming that uidos comes from vistos which is sort of... "known" "seen". Can't remember the Indo-European roots off the top of my head. These roots can be seen in the Galatian place name Drunemeton (Oak Sanctuary) and the Germano-Celtic tyrant Ariovistos (Lord Who is Known). As for Celts vs. Gauls... Keltoi I believe was used by the Greeks to refer to Celtic-speaking barbarians, and Galli was the word used by the Romans. Celtis in Gaulish means "warrior", so I think it's possible that they just heard the warriors who invaded Greece and Rome referring to themselves as fighters and used the word to refer to the people as a whole. Sadly, I don't remember all my sources off the top of my head, but the translation of De Bello Gallico is the one from the Internet Classics Archive. I'm currently on break and don't have access to all my reference books.
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:58 pm
Thanks for the info, Alrenn. 3nodding I imagine there's a lot of good stuff at Sacred Texts as well.
(Also, you may want to introduce yourself in our intro thread in the main forum ^_^)
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:16 pm
Welcome. I didn't know there was an introduction thread. I think I'll head over there now. biggrin
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Posted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:14 am
Nice info, thanks very much! It's always good to meet someone with more information than me. Learning is good.
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