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 Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:06 am
Before further advancing in this thread, I just want to ask a simple question (maybe two):
How many people did Shuichi killed in the series? (you can even use the anime if you want)
Also, how many people did Youko Kurama killed in the series?
-only name those that happened on panel/screen. No 'Yoko haz prolly killed 1000000 people in the past' stuff. Name only those that happened during the show.
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Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:54 pm
...Oh, geez. Mental exercise time....
Assuming that by "people," you're including non-humans:
Shuichi
~Eight-Hands demon and his slime-thing companion [killed with Hiei]
~Genbu
~random demons on the ship to the DT
~Roto
~random demon on Dr. Ichigaki [? - I can't quite remember - I think there were two demons, along with that Gattasval machine thing, and Kurama killed one in order to threaten the other?]
~Gama
~Karasu
~Amanuma Tsukihito [Gamemaster]
~Makihara Sadao [Gourmet; although by that time, Elder Toguro was pretty much pulling his strings]
And probably another bunch of miscellaneous demons somewhere along the way.
Youko Kurama
~Yomi's former second-in-command
I'm probably missing quite a few. Then again, Youko Kurama doesn't show up all that much....
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:16 pm
If you want to include people he indirectly killed as well, there was also Ura Urashima and Shigure...
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:05 pm
Shishiwakamaru killed Urashima, didn't he? [At least in the anime. deaddog, I am in need of thy manga expertise here.] And Shigure vs. Kurama was never shown in the manga.
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Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:18 pm
Quote: If you want to include people he indirectly killed as well, there was also Ura Urashima and Shigure... Shigure is still alive. Quote: Shishiwakamaru killed Urashima, didn't he? Yes. Both in the anime and manga. Anyway, lets move onto the main reason I made this thread: First, lets go by what the fanfictards believe and assume that Shuichi and Youko and two separate personalities and often engage in mental discussions between them ala Sensui. In fanfics, Shuichi is often portrayed as Mr. Nice guy/ Mr. Goodie-to-shoe who cries easily at sentimental moments. I am talking about thisQuote: Minamino Shuuichi's personality is gentle and sensitive
Corollary: He cries easily at sentimental moments
The most compelling evidence against this view is Hiei's testimony; even he considers the redhead to be a mean SOB...or should that be son-of-a-vixen? In any case, time and again he proves himself capable of cold anger and lethal vengeance, killing his enemies without the slightest twinge of conscience. He also enjoys tormenting his friends with practical jokes. Though Yuusuke weeps freely out of concern for his loved ones, and Kuwabara cries when he believes his friend to be dead, Kurama never releases a single tear in the anime. [We would like to express our gratitude to the person who brought it to our attention that he *does* shed one tear in the manga, when his mother recovers. We had mistaken it for one of the sweatdrops that had appeared on both his and Yuusuke's cheeks throughout the preceeding pages.] Youko, on the other hand, is portrayed as a vicious, horny, pervy guy who will kill his best friend for 'teh lulz'. Why is that? Youko killed only ONE person in the series. Shuchi killed more than you can count on your fingers including a child.
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:32 am
Oh, this whole debate fills me with rage most times, fanfictards make me want to kill things *points to sig*. I have never understood where they got the idea that Shuichi was this sweet, innocent, sentimental, crying piece of crap that they did... were they WATCHING the same series I was? When it comes to Shuichi and Youko "talking" to one another *rages* Kurama states NUMEROUS times in the series that his body is a merger, not a possession, uhg, therefore, there's nothing else to talk to, he blended what little soul there was of Shuichi into the spirit form of Youko to create the form he would be born into! There is NO voice in Shuichi's head! I am also 99.99999% positive that Kurama states somewhere that he, Shuichi Miniamino, and Youko were ONE, so like, where do they even get off with the whole separate personality thing?
I think part of the reason fanfictards like the idea of Youko and Shuichi being separate personalities that can talk to one another is for no other reason than they think it's "cute." Also, portraying Shuichi as a "Mr. Nice guy/ Mr. Goodie-two-shoes who cries easily," well didn't you know, that pulls at heart strings! *Rolls eyes in disgust*. These girls really don't know how to write, not to save their lives. It's too convenient for these girls to ignore the fact that Youko has been reborn into a new body, but still retains his ruthless nature. While it is true that he has learned of humanity, Shuichi IS Kurama, and as such, IS ruthless. The only reason, "Youko" has killed one person in the anime series is because Kurama's only been able to summon enough strength to take on his truest form a handful of times. Other than that, he's been in the body of Shuichi, and so he's had to kill as Shuichi.
I am digressing though... There's also the matter of the "Good boy" and "Bad boy" personas. Girls like to mess around with these and since Kurama used to be a "Bad boy" but has gone "Good" they play it up as best they can. It's the best answer I can give for the whole "Youko VS. Shuichi" debate, and lordy, does it ever make my head spin. @_@
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:58 pm
...This is, quite honestly, one of my favorite topics to discuss in all of Yu Yu Hakusho.
First things first: let's get things straight here. Kurama encompasses Youko Kurama and Minamino Shuichi. His soul possessed the body of a fetus in utero [who did not have a soul of his own yet], and he merged with the little human fetus. He cannot talk to Youko Kurama, because he still is Youko Kurama. Youko Kurama's soul - Kurama's soul - is now in the body of Minamino Shuichi. Dude. Kurama only has one soul. The body of Shuichi has no soul. So how does he manage to communicate between Youko Kurama and Shuichi? It doesn't even make sense. Honestly. Unless he's talking to himself...but that's not what fanfiction makes it sound like.
I blame the English anime for that one, because there's a scene in which Kurama's transforming back into Shuichi-form and talks to Youko Kurama in his Shuichi voice. I can't quite remember when this happened, though....I think after the Uraurashima fight?
Okay, now let's get on to the meat of the matter - the images and reputations that Kurama has. [Keep in mind that these are NOT separate entities, only aspects of Kurama's personality.]
Exhibit A: Minamino Shuichi This is the side of Kurama that he shows to his schoolmates, his family, and other people who don't know about "Kurama" and only know him as "Minamino Shuichi." He's a perfect student [I see that jealousy there, Kaitou...] and a perfect son. He cares - he openly displays tenderness and affection towards his mother, even if he never quite sheds a tear while doing so. [Aside from that one single little drop.]
This is what fanfiction writers perceive Kurama to be like. The rest of us know that Kurama's just acting, for the most part. [That affection for his family is very real, though.]
Exhibit B: Kurama This is the side of Kurama we see most often throughout the series. He's complicated - he's loyal to his newfound friends and teammates, he's calm, he's teasing and mischievous - but he's also cutthroat, calculating, and dangerous. He's willing to kill a little kid for the "greater good," though he's not happy about it - and woe betide you if you're the one he's angry at, if you even manage to catch that he's angry in the first place. He's learned a few things from masquerading as human, but he's still ruthless - and he's the most ruthless when he's protecting those little gems of humanity-taught goodness in the first place.
This is Kurama at his best and at his worst, when it comes down to it. This is who Kurama is. Of course, most fanfiction writers only portray this side of him as angry!Kurama, protective!Kurama, or fighter!Kurama.
Exhibit C: Youko Kurama This is who Kurama used to be [and to a lesser extent, still sort of is]. We really don't know all that much about him, aside from the fact that he didn't take to Yomi's rash personality very much and disliked him enough for that to order his death. Clearly, his emphasis is on intellect [strategic planning, which Yomi lacked] and power [which is why he became a bandit in the first place]. Notice that when Kurama transforms into his Youko form, he doesn't really act all that different in the manga - a little more confident and bold, maybe, but not much else. [He does in the anime, though - perhaps that's why?] The Youko Kurama form serves as little more than armor [according to this page] - it doesn't revamp his personality.
This is the side of Kurama that gets, well, the short end of the stick. Fanfiction writers regard him as a separate, disembodied entity who hangs out in Shuichi's [though Shuichi exists only as a persona that Kurama uses] head. He's perverted, violent, twisted, sadistic - you know the deal. Yeah. Too bad Youko Kurama is Kurama, right?
The solution for all this madness? Stop thinking about Shuichi and Youko as different entities. They're all Kurama. In the end, he's just one person, fangirls. You can't have both sides to him, because neither side really exists, and because neither side is really, in the end, Kurama.
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Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:32 am
Please don't turn this into a 'whether Kurama has multiple personalities or not' discussion. For the sake of this thread, lets ASSUME that 'Shuichi' and 'Youko' are indeed separate personalities/souls and really do talk in their head. Now that we are clear, lets discuss about this part: "Minamino Shuuichi's personality is gentle and sensitive
Corollary: He cries easily at sentimental moments"-why the ******** do fanfictards portray Shuichi as such. Hoshi made a good point: Quote: Also, portraying Shuichi as a "Mr. Nice guy/ Mr. Goodie-two-shoes who cries easily," well didn't you know, that pulls at heart strings! *Rolls eyes in disgust*. @Wyndi you mentioned three aspects of Kurama: Exhibit A: Minamino Shuichi Exhibit B: Kurama Exhibit C: Youko Kurama In reality, A is just an act and B & C are the same (although Kurama do become belligerent in his youko form). In fanfics, A & B are portrayed as the same while C is portrayed as a completely different individual. tl;dr Canon: B=C Fanon: A=B
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Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:29 pm
deaddog1991 Please don't turn this into a 'whether Kurama has multiple personalities or not' discussion. For the sake of this thread, lets ASSUME that 'Shuichi' and 'Youko' are indeed separate personalities/souls and really do talk in their head. Now that we are clear, lets discuss about this part: "Minamino Shuuichi's personality is gentle and sensitive
Corollary: He cries easily at sentimental moments"-why the ******** do fanfictards portray Shuichi as such. Hoshi made a good point: Quote: Also, portraying Shuichi as a "Mr. Nice guy/ Mr. Goodie-two-shoes who cries easily," well didn't you know, that pulls at heart strings! *Rolls eyes in disgust*. @Wyndi you mentioned three aspects of Kurama: Exhibit A: Minamino Shuichi Exhibit B: Kurama Exhibit C: Youko Kurama In reality, A is just an act and B & C are the same (although Kurama do become belligerent in his youko form). In fanfics, A & B are portrayed as the same while C is portrayed as a completely different individual. tl;dr Canon: B=C Fanon: A=B
I do believe that I mentioned all this, though perhaps not as concisely.
Let's clear something up before we continue - by "Minamino Shuichi," do you mean Kurama-acting-as-Shuichi, or Kurama himself?
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Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:37 pm
WyndiWingfall Shishiwakamaru killed Urashima, didn't he? [At least in the anime. deaddog, I am in need of thy manga expertise here.] And Shigure vs. Kurama was never shown in the manga. That's why Shuuichi killing him was indirect, technically he would have been killed anyways...
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Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:01 pm
Yurei Hanatsuki WyndiWingfall Shishiwakamaru killed Urashima, didn't he? [At least in the anime. deaddog, I am in need of thy manga expertise here.] And Shigure vs. Kurama was never shown in the manga. That's why Shuuichi killing him was indirect, technically he would have been killed anyways...
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:10 am
@Wyndi I am talking about fanfictard's version of Kurama aka fanon Kurama (exhibitA=exhibitB). We know that the Mr.Nice guy persona of Shuichi is all fake and his real behaviour is actually like that of what fanfictards call 'teh Yoko perosnailty'. However, fanfictards genuinely believe that Kurama, in his Shuichi form (or as they call it 'teh human form'), really is a 'Mr. Goodie to shoe' type of guy. Read this faggotry of a fanfic for what I am talking about: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2977329/1/Everybody_Loves_Shuichi
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Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:18 pm
Well, Kurama is, to a certain extent, innately...moral and "good." He exhibits extraordinary compassion for his mother and is, for the most part, polite and calm. However...he's definitely not kind to everyone, as most fanfiction writers try to make him out to be.
I like to call this the exaggeration phenomenon. You know how "shy" characters automatically become, well, like Hyuuga Hinata? ['Cause no shy person can just not like meeting people. Sheesh.] Kurama's so-called "core" traits - his intelligence, his calmness - automatically become him, because most writers need some experience before being able to write multi-faceted characters. It's the same reason why Yusuke's always portrayed as just a punk and not, well, all mushy over Keiko on the inside. It's the same reason why Hiei is stoic when he's actually a hell of a lot more emotional than Kurama. The surface traits automatically take over for that character.
...Believe me, I had the same problem when I started out writing fanfiction. It takes experience with the series to see a character more deeply.
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Posted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:23 pm
WyndiWingfall Well, Kurama is, to a certain extent, innately...moral and "good." He exhibits extraordinary compassion for his mother and is, for the most part, polite and calm. However...he's definitely not kind to everyone, as most fanfiction writers try to make him out to be.
I like to call this the exaggeration phenomenon. You know how "shy" characters automatically become, well, like Hyuuga Hinata? ['Cause no shy person can just not like meeting people. Sheesh.] Kurama's so-called "core" traits - his intelligence, his calmness - automatically become him, because most writers need some experience before being able to write multi-faceted characters. It's the same reason why Yusuke's always portrayed as just a punk and not, well, all mushy over Keiko on the inside. It's the same reason why Hiei is stoic when he's actually a hell of a lot more emotional than Kurama. The surface traits automatically take over for that character.
...Believe me, I had the same problem when I started out writing fanfiction. It takes experience with the series to see a character more deeply. (delivers stamp of approval) Since that was basically what you were asking, deaddog, here's your answer! Why do they write "Shuuichi" like a good-two-shoes? Because they can't write! I have problems with this type of thing as well, it's just the part of a developing writer. Honestly, most the YYH fanbase is corrupt. Don't let them get to you.
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Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:14 am
Kurama (in either forms) is the cruelest member of team YYH. The guy doesn't believe in mercy and honour and won't hesitate to do whatever it takes to complete his goals.
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