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Personally, I favor logic for gaining knowledge. However, I favor faith for gaining wisdom. As we know, many ideas that were supposedly "facts" have been proven false, and many faith-based ideas have yet to be proven true. For example, it was commonly accepted 350 years ago that flies spawned out of rotting meat. Spontaneous generation, as that was known, was disproved in 1668 by Francesco Redi. Many biblical ideas have been questioned over the years, such as the creation of the world in the book of Genesis. Therefore, I think it is important to look to both methods: reason for information, and faith for an interpretation.

John, forgive my ignorance of Judaism, but I have a question for you.

Fundamentalist Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that it is therefore inerrant; i.e., a literally true account that's never wrong.

From what I understand, Jews recognize only the Torah as "scripture" and the Talmud as doctrinal interpretation and extension. Is inerrancy of scripture an issue within the Jewish faith? Do some sects believe the accounts in Genesis etc. as literally true? (I'm assuming you don't.)

But both of you have somewhat sidestepped my second question, which is what takes primacy in a dispute of fact, faith or reason?

Personally I believe that when it comes down to it reason will overpower faith in an argument. I don't say this because I hate faith or have some sort of vendetta against religious orginizations, but rather because faith requires a certain suspension of logic in order to possess it. The Bible specifically states that faith is the belief in things unseen. Faith requires that there be no proof. That almost totally disqualifies it from an argument because there is literally no way to support a faith based belief. That isn't to say that faith isn't a powerful force or a useless tool for debate. Faith lends to the pathos of an argument. Conviction born of faith can sometimes prevail over logic.

However, I believe that it's far more likely that reason will emerge the victor when the two forces clash. Reason is a logical progression of thoughts that build up to a cohesive idea that can be followed and holds up under question. Faith simply collapses at the question stage. An argument of reason can be proven in physical terms and provides a bridge from question to conclusion, but faith requires an individual to leap from question to conclusion which is something many people are unwilling to do.

I think you've achieved the atmosphere.

On the topic however, reason just makes more sense to me. Given my experience with faith based systems of belief it's easier to argue a point that I can prove. I can walk people through a logical argument. Using reason, even people who don't agree with me accept that I have a valid point of view. Arguing on faith lacks a certain credibility I think is necessary for the general populace to be open minded.

Right-O. I saw this topic yesterday, and I couldn't think of a response. Reason is what I would consider better. Reason might not all ways win in an argument, because of all the people willing to KILL you over their faith. Reason and logic seem the best idea to me. Faith seems to wishy-washy. Sorry, I cant make a better argument right now...I'll leave now...

Whozit:

I would make a distinction between belief and emotion. I do think there's a link there, but only because many beliefs are based on feelings. However, one can have feelings/emotions without having faith.

Me, I don't believe in faith. xd I don't believe in gods, ghosts, aliens, magic, etc. Why not? A better question would be: Why?

I'm reminded of the X-Files. Anyone watch that? Agent Mulder has a poster in his office with a fuzzy UFO picture captioned "I WANT TO BELIEVE." I think most people want to believe in something, and so they do. Well, hey, I used to believe in all of those things.

Now, though, I'm fully on the side of reason, which doesn't leave any room for belief without evidence. And I get along fine. I really don't miss those beliefs, and so far I haven't been struck by lightning, haunted, abducted, or cursed. In fact, I am now a much more responsible, ethical, and independent person (and happier) than I was before.

That's not to say I don't have emotions, or that I never cry at movies. But I can tell you why I feel the way I do, and what it was that got me all choked up. Entertainment depends heavily on the voluntary suspension of disbelief -- but when the movie's over, we come back to reality.


John:

Thanks for the background info. Conservative Judaism sounds like one of the world's more "reasonable" religions.

I would have to say the following:
Faith, it was created to give man a potential hope that there is something out there that loves them other than their friends and mothers. It was also created with the false dream that there is a eternal place where they go to be happy with their creator. None has told us that this exists save old scriptures...that's not enough to prove anything.

Reason on the other hand, is used often through out time. To me, reason is "Should I eat the poptart before dinner, or do not, because if I do I will ruin my appetite." You make a choice, based on reason, it may not be the right choice or the right reason or even logic behind it, but you still do it.
But the most important thing is you can't prove either exists, because you can't prove we exist.