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Call Me Apple

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:51 pm


I have heard some mixed opinions on this.

A friend in Israel said that they are so against interfaith marriages, her Synagogue has a paper with a hotline, urging to call if a friend or family member is seriously considering dating outside the religion.

On the other hand, I've heard of interfaith marriages where there is a Rabbi AND a Pastor there, doing a dual-ceremony!

Would you ever have an interfaith marriage?
Do you know someone who has?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:52 am


According to Jewish law, a Jew should never marry or have children with a non-Jew.

There are people who have rabbinic ordination who will officiate at an interfaith ceremony. Of those who do this, most do this out of one of two motivations. The first is the feeling that if they don't, Judaism will look rigid and unaccepting of "where he's at right now," and that they will push the Jewish partner away from Judaism rather than encourage the non-Jewish partner to consider conversion. They reason that it is better to have a Jew retain some connection to the Jewish people than to have them get ticked off and leave altogether.

The second common motivation for officiating or co-officiating at an interfaith ceremony is money. Because it's hard to find a reputable rabbi who will officiate, a non-reputable rabbi can reasonably charge twice, or more, what normally would be charged for a wedding ceremony. They pad their pockets by encouraging the attitude that it's okay, Hashem is accepting, it's fine, after all it's all the same God, he surely cares about love more than about the details... The trouble is that that's incorrect. If Hashem didn't care about the details, he would never have given us the details in his Torah.

Marriage is stressful. It's hard to combine finances, blend dietary preferences ("I love to cook broccoli!" versus "Well, I hate broccoli!"), choose flatware/dishes/furniture, satisfy both parties with the choice of where to live, how much to spend on one's car versus one's clothing, how much to save for emergencies and/or retirement, how to raise the children (spanking/not, giving orders/explaining reasoning, wake up early and do chores all summer/enjoy sleeping in and then going to the pool), how to organize one's social and leisure time ("I'd love to have a really posh dinner party every week" versus "There've been people over here every bloody night, can't we just sit in our sweatpants and watch TV?")... There are a lot of pressures even in an ideal marriage, a lot of opportunities to argue, to become stressed, to misunderstand and have to apologize or compromise or make up.

And then you bring in religion. If the two of you share a religion, you still have to negotiate your level and type of observance, how often you want to attend communal religious events (every day, every week, every month, every holiday, once every few years when feeling sentimental or guilty), whether to send children to a religious school, a non-religious private school, or public school. That's hard too, and adds to the levels and types of stress. How much harder will it be for those who don't share a faith!

Now, I have an in-law who was raised ethnically but laxly Jewish (of course), married to a woman who was raised Catholic. Both of them are agnostic and non-religious now -- they say there may be a God, but that's not really where they focus their time, energy, or attention. They don't have a single difficulty in their marriage that relates to religion. Despite the fact that their marriage is contrary to Jewish law, I can't see that it makes a practical difference, right now, to them. They're good together, precisely because the religions their families gave them are entirely unimportant to them. I'm glad that D married J, because I adore J and would never have met her if they hadn't married and then moved to the town where I live.

But you can bet, if either one of them ever decides that religion is important after all, they're going to (G*D forbid) have problems. If J starts going to church and saying that without Jesus, D is going to hell, D is going to resent the church and then start resenting J. If D starts wishing that his wife were able to participate in the mitzvah of taharat hamishpachah ("Family Purity"), which is only doable by a Jewish woman, J is going to resent Judaism, Jewish law, and D. If J decided that Judaism looked good to her and started getting into religion and considering converting to Judaism and becoming observant when D was not fully supportive and willing to become observant with her -- or if D started wanting to become a Catholic and become observant in that way, while J was not wanting to be observant as a Catholic -- that would create friction, too. If they had kids, that would be even more friction, as they argued over what religion to teach to the kids and how much encouragement to give to them in that path.

Short version of the above: If X is unimportant to you and Y is unimportant to your spouse, no problem. If X is important to you both, or Y is important to you both, no problem. If X is important to you, and Y is important to your spouse, and X is contrary to Y... problem. Whether X and Y are religions, political stances, or whatever, it's a problem. Marriage is something to work at and foster actively, not something that "just happens." Adding problems to it on purpose is just a bad idea.

Divash
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shmully

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:01 am


My family is conservative, I was raised conservative, but now I find myself getting very observant beyond the conservative branch, walking out slowly and bending twords Chabad more closely. My family (atleast close family, not Grandparents) would be fine if I married a non-Jew, and a few years ago I would of been okay with it too, but now, it's a must for me to marry a Jew, at that, a orthodox Jew, or atleast one that can do Shul every Friday Night (or all together honor the totality of Shabbat), keep Kosher, and observe all the high holidays in their entirety.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:50 pm


My Mom did it.
I'm personally a big fan of the results.

Lumanny the Space Jew

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Call Me Apple

Sparkly Shapeshifter

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:01 pm


@ Lumanny: Awww xD

@ catastrofie: I dont think less of you for that. I am not married to a Muslim, at times it makes matters of faith more complicated. I can understand you wanting to have someone on the same plane as you, going with you to Shul, eating Kosher, etc. It gets lonely if your partner doesnt want to or is only doing it to please you.

@ Divash: Are you married yourself? You seem to have all this figured out pretty well, haha. Glad you have your feet on the ground about the real issues of interfaith marriage sweatdrop
PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:53 pm


Call Me Apple


@ catastrofie: I dont think less of you for that. I am not married to a Muslim, at times it makes matters of faith more complicated. I can understand you wanting to have someone on the same plane as you, going with you to Shul, eating Kosher, etc. It gets lonely if your partner doesnt want to or is only doing it to please you.


Well, i'd be going with her to Shul, lol, as women are the ones that put it together, since its the negative side of the lamp of Shabbat, the male (positive) side is on Saturday. But other than that, yeah, not that i'd be lonely, but it wouldn't feel right. I want my kids to be raised somewhat observant/orthodox, in that way they need the same motherly figure as their dad is with religion and ect.

shmully


Behatzlacha-S

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:12 am


I should be able to throw in my twopenny piece, here, seeing as I am, like Lumanny, the result of a mixed marriage - that is, between a raised-Orthodox Jewish man and a believing (but not Christian) woman.

Mixed marriages will cause conflicts in your child's mind about origins, belonging, faith, etc. I should know - I believe I made a lovely vent thread about the very fact a while ago. I've always considered myself a Jew, and a religious one, at home in Liberal Judaism. I am at an independant age - I can make my own religious choices at this point, and I no longer ask myself whether or not I'm a "half-Jew", inferior in some way and denied rights I now know I can demand, nor indeed "not a Jew" due to my mother's Gentile origins. I have chosen to be a fully-fledged Jewish man.

However, I do have two brothers still dependant on my parents. Our household was necessarily secular, as my father quashed any religious feelings anyone nearby had, and my mother and her side of the family would feel alienated if we were to celebrate Pesach, Hannukah, Shabbat, etc. I bring this up because my teenage brother, who is less religiously-inclined, feels no bond to Judaism whatsoever, considering himself an atheist of Gentile origins. My youngest brother is still in primary school (a Christian one at that), and has yet to even hear the word Judiasm. No doubt, when he does, more conflict will arrive.

Not that I don't think marrying out of Judaism is a good thing. As I said, I'm a Liberal Jew. I observe Shabbat, enjoying the rest and peace, without denying myself hot food or being unable to walk to meet my partner. I'm not going to get into my motives or practices, now, but I'd like to point out, quickly, that there are only a few million Jews on the planet - conversion counts for some genetic diversity but over the course of the next six thousand years, we'll suffer for it. Even worse - if interfaith couples feel cast aside from Judaism, they'll leave the religion, as has often been the quoted case, leaving Judaism becoming introverted and prejudiced as those that're left turn back to more... traditional... ways.

Judaism should not be defined biologically; we are a social group that carries a set of values, literatures, and practices that we pass down because they are meaningful to us Are Jews afraid that Judaism is so unappealing that it must be forced upon children as a "biological status," because the content of the religion/culture isn't enough? There is so much that is positive and valuable in Judaism that we can share it with non-Jews without worrying that Jews are going to disappear. Judaism will disappear if it's presented in an exclusionary and separatist way.

And that's my piece on Judaism, intermarriage and mixed children. Make of it what you will. I'm off to work. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:57 am


Behatzlacha-S

Judaism should not be defined biologically; we are a social group that carries a set of values, literatures, and practices that we pass down because they are meaningful to us Are Jews afraid that Judaism is so unappealing that it must be forced upon children as a "biological status," because the content of the religion/culture isn't enough? There is so much that is positive and valuable in Judaism that we can share it with non-Jews without worrying that Jews are going to disappear. Judaism will disappear if it's presented in an exclusionary and separatist way.


I love it being defined biologically, it's simply amazing to me how each of our DNA's can actually be researched and we're able to figure out which one of the Israelite tribes were from. It's in our blood, and our blood was shed because of it, in and out of the Torah. I understand your reason, this is just mine. Tradition is tradition, it keeps all of us together in this completely separated world, personally I feel complete order and peace with it. Judaism will definitely not disappear, I can assure you that, especially with Israel, I'm acually seeing a lot more Jews around lately (well un-observant people becoming observant), aswell as a lot more converts. It's not that we shove our tradition and knowledge of Talmud and Torah down the throat of our kids, it's because its very important for the formation of a soul that can choose to be close to Hashem at any time of the day, and kids need to know that. A lot of people born into Chassidism eventually leave in there teens and explore their own way of living and move away from the Chassidic sect, BUT, they all eventually come back to it, because since they were submerged in it since birth, it's the only waters that make sense, which I have to agree can be a disturbing thing, but good, all is good.

A Jew doesn't go to Israel, if even for the first time. They return. Not even for Jews, but for the entire world, it seems. I know people who aren't even Jewish and they went to Israel and felt it to be a true home, like it was a long lost memory, everyone has connections to it somehow.

shmully


Divash
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:15 pm


Call Me Apple
Divash: Are you married yourself? You seem to have all this figured out pretty well, haha. Glad you have your feet on the ground about the real issues of interfaith marriage


I was married in a religiously mixed marriage at 18, divorced at 19, and didn't find my true bashert ("destiny," often used to speak of a fiance/e or spouse) until almost a decade later. We've been together 11 years, this coming November, thank G*D. Yes, that makes me nearly 40. smile I've had a long time to think about what went wrong the first time, and religion wasn't all or even the biggest part of it, but it sure as shootin' didn't HELP the situation any.

Behatzlacha-S: Judaism isn't unattractive inherently, but then, we don't FORCE Judaism on our children. We GIFT it to them. It's a precious thing that we are happy to give to them. If your parents were wealthy beyond the wildest dreams of most people, would you say that they FORCED affluence on their children? Of course not. There are advantages and disadvantages to every set of circumstances into which a child is born, but those of us who treasure our Judaism feel that the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. And then there are the other things that a child can be born with, such as their eye or skin color, their nationality, their ability to sing on key, and so forth. Are those FORCED onto the children, or are they simply there, something that is inherently neither good nor bad, but simply a fact that the child can choose to work with, work against, or simply ignore? That, too, is one way that a person can view Jewishness.

And yet, it is not exclusionary, at least not in an elitist fashion. Anyone who is serious about becoming Jewish can do so. If a person truly shares the values, beliefs, and goals of their Jewish partner, there shouldn't be a problem with converting. If they don't share those values, beliefs, and goals, why would the two of them get married in the first place?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:42 pm


Perhaps people can bond despite religious or political differences. I myself am with a Christian woman, and we're very happy, as are our families. Religion doesn't come into it - we both do our own thing.

And, when I have children, I shall raise them as Jews despite the fact that they'll only be a "quarter-Jewish", with no maternal Judaism, and if I marry a Gentile (which looks likely), I don't expect her to convert, just as I expect her to allow me to remain Jewish.

The analogy of Judaism being "gifted" to my children like wealth isn't one I can see working, as wealth is a massive privilege few obtain, whilst religions can be changed freely to suit the person. People do not wish to be Jewish without hope, they can become so at any point, as you said, Divash, but comparing Judaism to great wealth is as if saying Judaism was worth more than other religions, or at least should command greater respect. Is that an idea I want my children growing up with?

I am proud to be Jewish, yes, but I equally respect Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc etc., and would not be upset should my children choose to convert, nor do I have any issues with marrying someone outside of Judaism, because of this fact.

Behatzlacha-S

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Divash
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:31 pm


Behatzlacha-S
The analogy of Judaism being "gifted" to my children like wealth isn't one I can see working, as wealth is a massive privilege few obtain...


0.02% of the world's population are Jewish. Massive privilege; few obtain it. Yeah, that fits, to me.

Behatzlacha-S
whilst religions can be changed freely to suit the person.


A person can be Jewish by faith but not be Jewish by heritage. Most of these will convert to Judaism eventually; some will become declared, practicing Noachides; others, since the Jewish community as a whole isn't so good at making those folks understand how valued and welcomed they are/should be, will eventually drift away to find other faith feelings and practices.

A person can also be Jewish (by heritage but not by faith or practice. I have a few relatives who are Jewish by ethnicity only, who have variously embraced Buddhism, a certain cult which was later abandoned for Christianity, agnosticism, and atheism.

So yes, religions can be embraced or rejected. One's heritage, however, cannot. If you were born of Chinese parents, you may or may not be Chinese by nationality. You might have been naturalized to another country's citizenship; you might have been born to Chinese parents who were citizens of Spain and therefore you're Spanish; you might have been kicked out of China as a punishment for certain crimes, and therefore not be able to claim Chinese ancestry. But you will always have the physical characteristics of a Chinese person -- certain range of skin tones, eye shapes, and dental characteristics (most notably the 'shovel' shaped teeth). Judaism's the same. If your mother is a Jew, you might still not be practicing Judaism for some reason, but you will always be a Jew, unless you die while committed to another religion and before returning to Judaism.

Behatzlacha-S
People do not wish to be Jewish without hope, they can become so at any point, as you said, Divash, but comparing Judaism to great wealth is as if saying Judaism was worth more than other religions, or at least should command greater respect. Is that an idea I want my children growing up with?


Absolutely NOT. Comparing ANY heritage to great wealth is absolutely appropriate. My Welsh friend's heritage is a gift that he has given to his children. My Italian friend's heritage is a gift that she has given to her children. My Australian friend's heritage is a gift that she hopes someday to pass on to eventual children. And your Jewish heritage is one that you could pass on to your children. It is ABSOLUTELY a gift, your heritage and everyone else's too. The fact that I say that a Jewish heritage is a treasure is (1) just as true for Jewish heritage as it is for any other heritage, and (2) a near-quote from the Torah, which calls us Hashem's "treasured, splendrous people." So yes, I would think that the notion that every person's heritage is something they can and should treasure would be an idea you'd be delighted to pass on to your children. Correct me if I'm wrong.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:46 pm


Divash


Absolutely NOT. Comparing ANY heritage to great wealth is absolutely appropriate. My Welsh friend's heritage is a gift that he has given to his children. My Italian friend's heritage is a gift that she has given to her children. My Australian friend's heritage is a gift that she hopes someday to pass on to eventual children. And your Jewish heritage is one that you could pass on to your children. It is ABSOLUTELY a gift, your heritage and everyone else's too. The fact that I say that a Jewish heritage is a treasure is (1) just as true for Jewish heritage as it is for any other heritage, and (2) a near-quote from the Torah, which calls us Hashem's "treasured, splendrous people." So yes, I would think that the notion that every person's heritage is something they can and should treasure would be an idea you'd be delighted to pass on to your children. Correct me if I'm wrong.


I agree with this. Every heritage is "treasured" by the people that sprout from it. The Torah is treasured by the Jews because we have sprout from it, or from the Children of Israel, we are Isralites. We definitely are no different than everyone else, we are however the first religion to acknowledge that G-D is one, casting ourselves away from Idolatry and pagan gods and goddesses, which is like a creature worshipping a creature, which to me doesn't make sense. I love Jewish people, we all love eachother, it's a big family, like every heritage. The amazing thing about ours is that when we are saddened or have problems in our life, we can turn to the Torah, and read about people who had the exact same problems and find a solution fast, because that same G-D, G-D of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, still has a covenant, that is very much alive today as it was 4000 years ago. That's why I feel the need to marry inside it.

shmully


Rapunzel207

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:33 am


I do not think love or marriage should be defined by religion. Of course it is important- how can you be with someone that completely disagrees with your way of life? But it should not be the first thing you ask them about. There other things more important. You wouldn't marry a random person just because they have the same religion as you? You wouldnt be like, "Oh we are the same religion! We will definitely get along!" because it just doesnt work that way. But much of the time, having the same religion is much easier. I guess what I'm trying to say is, do not limit yourself.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:07 am


Rapunzel207
I do not think love or marriage should be defined by religion. Of course it is important- how can you be with someone that completely disagrees with your way of life? But it should not be the first thing you ask them about. There other things more important. You wouldn't marry a random person just because they have the same religion as you? You wouldnt be like, "Oh we are the same religion! We will definitely get along!" because it just doesnt work that way. But much of the time, having the same religion is much easier. I guess what I'm trying to say is, do not limit yourself.


Rapunzel207, I DO think that it should be the first thing asked. Now, hear me out. If you can say definitely that this person's religion is too different from yours for you to ever be happy with them unless they were to change it, then you should not think of that person as someone to hold a relationship with. Why? Because if you want them to change themselves, they aren't really right for you, nor are you right for them.

I agree, though, with the second part of what you said. While religion should be one of the very first questions, in my opinion, it is definitely not the only question. Sharing a religion is not the only thing that matters, but it is a big deal. If you do share a religion (beliefs, values, goals, dreams, hopes), then one huge source of potential marital stress/conflict is out of the way, and then you can begin looking at other things -- such as whether you're a morning person and he's a night person, or whether you're a vegetarian and she can't envision eating a meal without meat in it, and so on.

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Zumbi2

PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:39 pm


Having read both sides, and being that I like Lummany and co am of a mix marriage technically (mom converted before I was born), and my parents (mainly my dad) shove it down my throat at times and teach wrongly (I have had to teach myself), I have to be honest it goes both ways. It can either be very good or very bad. Either in the short run or long run.

I'll list some pros and cons. These are right off the top of my head

pros.

1. More genetic diversity. This is good since we have many genetic diseases due to well, to be honest, inbreeding, and many religious Jews having over 8 kids. To fix such problems we do need to marry out, or at least marry a Jew of a different race then ourself, or a jew of a different culture/ethnic background.

2. It gives the kids a much stronger heritage and in the best of circumstances they become more tolerant and open minded if the kids choose Judasim.

3. Depending on the spouses interactions and encounters with Judaism, said spouse is very likely to convert. Example my aunts fiance/boyfriend of over 3 years (who is also younger than her by 5 + years) didn't even begin converting yet but is already keeping kosher in and out of the house, kept Yom Kippur completely (fast, praying, and everything. It was his first time this year.), keeps shabbat, has been keeping Pesach for the past several years, and he is beginning to learn Hebrew (and Italian out of respect for his parents who are native born Italians).

4. If they are a very religious Christian, Muslim, or Hindu who begins to really learn about Judaism out of respect for you, they will 9 out of 10 times become Jewish, and end up very religious but tolerant.

5. This one is really rare. If they are athiest and end up learning so as to not make an a** of themselves at the Shabbat table, and come across some of the more "Holy crap! Jews knew this for over 2000 years before modern science!?" stuff, they end up really diving in deep just to try to disprove it, but end up believing in Hashem and wanting to to convert.

6.The goy might actually find out they have some Jewish heritage and embrace it to the point they convert.

some cons. some of these are more of on the fence.

1. The child ends up agnostic. Not really bad, but still.

2. They are not really into it for the religion but practice because of the culture and tradition. Once again not really bad since many times religion survives because of those that learn, record, and carry on these traditions even if they don't really care about god. Aka, the Lulavs (major sukkot reference).

3. The kid ends up the other religion. A really bad con connected to this is that they try to in turn convert other Jews.

4. Depending on how the parents act around the kids, the kid can become bitter toward religion totally and end up anti-god.


Pros that can end up coming out of the cons.

1. Those that discover that they have even 1/16 or less in them end up many times learning about their heritage and end coming coming back to the fold.

2. Or they end up becoming very pro-Jewish, and Pro-Israel. I've seen this with both Muslims, and Christians.

3. The children that end up the other religion many times and know their heritage completely end up becoming fiercly protective of it and Jews and Israel and feel more at home with us than with those of their religion. And they do not try to convert others.

4. Although very rare, many populations of the world such as various Latin and East Asian communities/people that find out they have Jewish heritage even if it is from 12 generations ago end up doing mass convertions together. This is something that is happening a lot in China ( the number of Chinese Jews is raising rapidly as a result of this. Every day at least 5-10 Chinese that learn of their Jewish heritage decide to convert. The same is happening with Koreans, and Japanese due to a lot of evidence that they may be the descendents of a few of the lost tribes. The tribes of Dan and Menashe are extremely good examples of this.), Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Argentina, India, and ect.


So really is it 50/50 and based on whether or not it is supposed to happen.

Remember Hashem plans it all out and has things happen for a reason. Even someone breaking Jewish law happens for a reason. Whether or not we understand it. God may not be happy about it, but heck he sort of planned it.
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