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 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:08 am
I just found out about Kasen Ibara earlier this morning, and aside from instantly becoming my #2 favourite, after reading some theorizing and such from danbooru comments and repeated again on the wiki, it seems very likely pointing towards Kasen being the third of the Four Devas of the Mountain as Ibaraki, which works for me since I love me some horny womenfolk. So, if it turns out that Kasen is indeed an oni, and is one of the Four Devas, how long do you think it'll take for the fourth one to show her face?
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:57 am
Actually, I haven't heard any of that theories before. *looks up a bit in the wiki and in Danbooru images* The only problem with it is that Kasen already falls into the "hermit" species. According to Akyuu's taxonomical system on PMiSS, they are a totally different species from the oni. Do you think it's possible that Kasen belongs to both?
And, as for the last Deva, I've heard a fan theory that says it's Konngara. She has a horn on her head, she lives under the earth... and that's it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:29 am
Suika looks like Taiga in that last picture.
obviously wiki'd "Ibara" refers to "wild rose" so my guess is that she's a hermit.
On the other hand, she has shackles which are the ZUN mark of an Oni
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:02 pm
Wotan Manasal Actually, I haven't heard any of that theories before. *looks up a bit in the wiki and in Danbooru images* The only problem with it is that Kasen already falls into the "hermit" species. According to Akyuu's taxonomical system on PMiSS, they are a totally different species from the oni. Do you think it's possible that Kasen belongs to both? Unlikely. But yet again, she could be either: a) Lying about her species, or... b) Be a hermit anyways, and yet still be somewhat related to the Four Devas. With ZUN, everything is possible!
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:34 pm
Anatole_serial b) Be a hermit anyways, and yet still be somewhat related to the Four Devas. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure being an oni is not a requisite to be a Deva. So yea.
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Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:35 pm
Don't really know too much about the character to give any real input on the matter, though the shackles and supposed horns does send off a flag. Perhaps she is like Marisa and there was a miscommunication somewhere, her being a hermit by trade and not by species. or maybe as Wotan suggested a hermit is part of the four devas and it was merely assumed that they were all oni since the only two we knew were. or maybe Eirin's new drug...
Hmm, I wonder which since I have been waiting for both a hermit and another deva since Yuugi to show herself.
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:47 am
Shingami Hiroshi Perhaps she is like Marisa and there was a miscommunication somewhere, her being a hermit by trade and not by species. She is a hermit "by trade". I'm pretty sure that —unlike magicians— you can't be born being a hermit. Plus in WaHH's first chapter, Kasen talks a bit about how strict the process to become a hermit is, just as if she knew it by experience.
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:05 am
It outright states in the Perfect Memento article that "hermits" (仙人) are humans that have undergone special discipline, so by definition Kasen shouldn't be an oni.
However, there's nothing to say that the devas must be oni, so that one's up in the air I guess.
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:31 pm
I know she has to be practicing the life style of a hermit, but being one who practices the life style of a hermit can be diffrent from actually being part of the species called hermits, like magicians. For example a human through their practice of magic can become a yokai species called a magician, like Alice did, or a human can merely practice the life style of the magician while not actually being part of the race by the same name, like Marisa who is considered a magcian by trade but still is a human. Applying this logic to hermits, it is possible for one to be a hermit while not previously a human. Like Marisa, she may be practicing the life style of the hermit (Shuugyou and all that), while not actually being part of the hermit species.
If this is the case, it would allow her to be both an oni and a hermit (since she would be a hermit by trade only, and not be forced under the restrctions of having been a human first). Reasons to suspect her of being an oni in species rather than an hermit is due to the shackle on her left wrist and her title of the "one armed, horned hermit" (under her hair onaments? I don't see them). ZUN stated to him that horns and shackles to him are the mark of an Oni (which can be seen on both Suika and Yuugi).
However it can easily be the shackle was merely a desighn choice and the "horned hermit" being a metaphor for something. I guess what makes or breaks the theory is whether or not she actually does have horns or not. Any one can wear shackles, so basing it on that alone dosen't do much. However if she does have horns it would suggest she is not human, and thus can not be a hermit in species (as far as i know, there is no physical transformations in becoming a hermit). If she is not human or a hermit, having both those characteristics suggest she may be an oni. or maybe this is all an elaborate scheme by ZUN for the very purpose of people like us to have this discussion.
Ofcourse, like I said, I have not had the pleasure of reading the source material so I am just bouncing wacko theories off you guys.
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:10 pm
Shingami Hiroshi I know she has to be practicing the life style of a hermit, but being one who practices the life style of a hermit can be diffrent from actually being part of the species called hermits, like magicians. Hermits are a type of youkai, but they aren't a youkai species. The canon sources speak of hermits as humans who have undergone certain types of training — the way I see it, they give no plausible reasons to think they can breed and have hermit offspring, which is a biological requisite for classifying them as a standalone species. Hell, Akyuu gives them the title of "Somewhat Peculiar Humans" on PMiSS. I'm pretty sure the "origin duality" of magicians isn't applicable to the other youkai species of Gensokyo, or at least to hermits and celestials (who are former hermits, by the way).
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:21 pm
hmm, I may be abusing my vocabulary again, sorry. As I understand it though, both the term magician and hermit refers to a type of practice and those who become a type of youkai through that practice. Magicians are of course those who study and practice magic while hermits as I understand it is a type of as ascetic buddhist monk. They are counted as a type of youkai because each practice can alter the biology of the practitioner so that they are diffrent from humans. Magicians bodies no longer age through magical means and hermits can reach a certain transcendence were they live much longer than normal humans.
My thinking is that it may be possible for her to be an oni which practices the ascetic buddhist monk life style. Thus being an oni and a hermit. But this is just a theory inorder to explain how both her being an oni and a hermit may be possible, I don't really believe it, just throwing it out as a possibility. Besides I admit there is alot of holes in that theory, I mean an oni who would give up the earthly luxury of sake! Never!
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:02 am
(I'm just going to start calling them Sennin because "Hermit" is a very unfitting term)
Actually, Sennin aren't listed as youkai at all. Like Celestials, Sennin are listed specifically as ascended humans. If an oni or something followed Shuugyou, they'd likely just be categorized as a monk or something similar, but in all honesty an oni would have nothing to gain since they are not bound by the same cycle or limitations.
Heck, certain sutras used in Shuugyou would likely be extremely repulsive to youkai (and thus oni). Remember, some sutras have an intense purifying/banishing effect.
...Though naturally, Kasen could even just be parading around/percieved as a Sennin, and in reality just be a diligent oni. She certainly seems to match up with a certain Ibaraki Douji.
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:31 am
And her name's Kasen Ibara so......
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:09 pm
Hanzo Komeiji And her name's Kasen Ibara so...... Notice how the manga uses TWO different Kanji spellings? One is "Ibara" (茨), the other, between parenthesis, is "Ibaraki" (茨木). And then there's Ibaragidouji (茨木童子), the Oni whose RIGHT ARM was severed by Watanabe no Tsuna. The "Ibaraki" in "Ibaragidouji" is the same as Kasen's family name. I don't know if she's an Oni or not... But just like Suika is totally based on the original Drunkard Oni of Mt. Ooe (Shutendouji) and Yuugi is also based on one of Shutendouji's strongest Oni underlings (Hoshikumadouji), I wouldn't be surprised if Kasen *is* the "demon" of legend.
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:00 am
Forgot to mention that Ibaraki Douji also used the arm of a sennin as a substitute in some versions of the legend.
Also, I just realized that a lot of characters lately have been tied to the Heian era.
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