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Interesting lawsuit - the PCG's opinion?

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Let's poll, shall we?
  Civil court is right! She had a second chance at ending the pregnancy and she chose to deliver instead.
  High Court is right! She should not be punished for the decision not to undergo a riskier procedure.
  Both their arguments are flawed! I'm typing why, like right now.
  Fetus-shaped cookies.
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_Morgane Fay_

PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:15 pm


Today, I read a story in my local (note: not US) newspaper about a woman who sued the hospital that performed her abortion at 6 weeks in 1998. Bear with me, the reason is not what you think it is.

At a checkup over 2 months later, it appears that the abortion wasn't completed and she is in fact still pregnant - by now 16-17 weeks. She refuses to undergo a second procedure and ends up delivering a healthy son.

Fast forward to the legal case: the woman sues the hospital for the cost of the delivery and for the costs she incurred caring for her son thus far.

In a civil court, her claim is denied: the court sides with the hospital which argues that she actively declined the option of a second abortion at the time of the checkup. (The hospital also claims that the woman changed her mind and now does want the pregnancy. She denies having said so. There's no written proof of either.) Having declined this option, she cannot establish a causal relation between the botched first procedure and the costs she is suing the hospital for.

Not taking no for an answer, the woman pursues the case to the national High (Supreme) Court. Which rules in her favour, subverting the civil court's judgement: it argues that a 16 week abortion cannot be considered to have the same risk profile as a 6 week abortion, and therefore the woman's unwillingness to undergo it does not absolve the hospital of its responsibility for the first unsuccessful abortion. Furthermore, the court considers it possible but highly unlikely that the woman changed her mind regarding the pregnancy in the 10 weeks between the first procedure and the checkup.

The hospital must pay.


I'm intrigued by both sets of arguments. What say you?
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 12:42 pm


Addendum: online discussion of this case is -unsurprisingly- obviously filled to the brim with ignorant, simplistic and hateful content: "shouldn't have spread her legs in the first place" "awful woman" "claim culture" "greedy" blah blah ******** blah.
Not that I'm expecting any of that here, just need to vent before I start punching through my computer screen.

_Morgane Fay_


PhaedraMcSpiffy

PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 12:45 pm


Wow. I have absolutely no idea what to make of that. I want to say that the hospital should be held responsible for screwing up in the first place, but I don't know.
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 4:33 pm


Hospital should pay for how much all the pre-and post-natal care has been, and maybe at a push for the kid's medical bills until 18, but she still ultimately chose to keep the child. I know it was twelve years ago, but abortions now are pretty safe at 16 weeks and I can't imagine it was much different then. It just seems kinda excessive to make the hospital pay for her son.

Fran Salaska


_Morgane Fay_

PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:44 am


PhaedraMcSpiffy
Wow. I have absolutely no idea what to make of that. I want to say that the hospital should be held responsible for screwing up in the first place, but I don't know.

True. What I'm curious about, though, is that every medical procedure has a failure rate. A small one, perhaps, but it's there. People sign waivers for those, don't they? So that the doctor and/or hospital, depending on your local legal system, cannot be held responsible for failure if they can show it wasn't a malpractice case. How should one determine if the failure was due to negligence/malpractice or simply bad luck?
Related (and I haven't been able to find the answer to this particular bit): why wasn't a pregnancy test done ~2 weeks post procedure? Isn't that standard?

Fran Salaska
Hospital should pay for how much all the pre-and post-natal care has been, and maybe at a push for the kid's medical bills until 18, but she still ultimately chose to keep the child. I know it was twelve years ago, but abortions now are pretty safe at 16 weeks and I can't imagine it was much different then. It just seems kinda excessive to make the hospital pay for her son.

That occurred to me, too. Then again, if you're of the opinion that you're saddled with providing for a child because of the hospital's negligence, why stop at claiming the just the perinatal costs? Children do cost more than just that amount.

I think that what I appreciate about the High Court's ruling is that they treat the two choices at two separate moments in time as not dependent on each other. It recognizes that each choice is a result of unique considerations and that its consequences shouldn't be connected to a previous, unconnected choice. I'm not necessarily sure that I'm very happy with the implicit treating of the child as a financial damage post.
PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 4:29 pm


_Morgane Fay_

True. What I'm curious about, though, is that every medical procedure has a failure rate. A small one, perhaps, but it's there. People sign waivers for those, don't they? So that the doctor and/or hospital, depending on your local legal system, cannot be held responsible for failure if they can show it wasn't a malpractice case. How should one determine if the failure was due to negligence/malpractice or simply bad luck?
Related (and I haven't been able to find the answer to this particular bit): why wasn't a pregnancy test done ~2 weeks post procedure? Isn't that standard?

Good questions!

Quote:
I think that what I appreciate about the High Court's ruling is that they treat the two choices at two separate moments in time as not dependent on each other. It recognizes that each choice is a result of unique considerations and that its consequences shouldn't be connected to a previous, unconnected choice.

True!

PhaedraMcSpiffy


Munkers

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:31 pm


Regardless of the woman's attitude toward the pregnancy and regardless of her decisions after the check-up, the fact remains that the hospital ******** up BIG TIME in performing an abortion that didn't terminate the pregnancy. This isn't just a matter of retained products of conception. They ******** up bad enough that the pregnancy continued and went to term. I can't fathom how you screw up that badly. There's some big time negligence involved so yes, the hospital is absolutely responsible for any medical costs she might incur as a result of the pregnancy.

The point isn't about relative safety in the big picture. She consented to a 6 week abortion, not one at 16 weeks. Because of the hospital's negligence (how the ******** do you screw up an abortion at 6 weeks?) she not only had to deal with the risk of the procedure and possible complications, but she was still pregnant and carrying all of the risk that that entails.

Her decisions after the fact don't change the fact that the hospital really screwed the pooch.

That said, I'd limit monetary compensation to prenatal care, delivery expensives, and postnatal care (her 6 week etc., care for any complications like a bad episiotomy or anything else that resulted from the delivery). Choosing to birth and choosing to retain custody of the child are two separate issues.
PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:23 am


Munkers
Regardless of the woman's attitude toward the pregnancy and regardless of her decisions after the check-up, the fact remains that the hospital ******** up BIG TIME in performing an abortion that didn't terminate the pregnancy. This isn't just a matter of retained products of conception. They ******** up bad enough that the pregnancy continued and went to term. I can't fathom how you screw up that badly. There's some big time negligence involved so yes, the hospital is absolutely responsible for any medical costs she might incur as a result of the pregnancy.

The point isn't about relative safety in the big picture. She consented to a 6 week abortion, not one at 16 weeks. Because of the hospital's negligence (how the ******** do you screw up an abortion at 6 weeks?) she not only had to deal with the risk of the procedure and possible complications, but she was still pregnant and carrying all of the risk that that entails.

Her decisions after the fact don't change the fact that the hospital really screwed the pooch.

I don't really know what expected failure rates after a vacuum aspiration procedure are. Plus, we don't know if it was a surgical or a manual vacuum aspiration, although I suspect surgical.
This 2001 research says: "The failure rate was [...] 1.5% for surgical vacuum aspiration." Here, a failure rate of 0.25%-1.5% is given. Another source (which I stupidly clicked away before linking) held that the failure rate is higher with very early (up to 6 weeks) pregnancies. Neither source distinguishes "leftover conception products" from "intact pregnancy", so again, I don't know how common this is. I just find it very hard to judge the failure as negligence or malpractice without that knowledge.

Quote:
That said, I'd limit monetary compensation to prenatal care, delivery expensives, and postnatal care (her 6 week etc., care for any complications like a bad episiotomy or anything else that resulted from the delivery). Choosing to birth and choosing to retain custody of the child are two separate issues.

Yeah, but if you hold the choice for a 16-week abortion to be entirely independent of the choice for a 6-week abortion, why then not consider the choice to give up custody in the same light?

_Morgane Fay_


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:20 pm


_Morgane Fay_
I don't really know what expected failure rates after a vacuum aspiration procedure are. Plus, we don't know if it was a surgical or a manual vacuum aspiration, although I suspect surgical.
This 2001 research says: "The failure rate was [...] 1.5% for surgical vacuum aspiration." Here, a failure rate of 0.25%-1.5% is given. Another source (which I stupidly clicked away before linking) held that the failure rate is higher with very early (up to 6 weeks) pregnancies. Neither source distinguishes "leftover conception products" from "intact pregnancy", so again, I don't know how common this is. I just find it very hard to judge the failure as negligence or malpractice without that knowledge.


Even with that failure rate, she should have had follow-up care to determine whether or not it was a complete abortion. Either that follow-up care didn't happen or someone managed to miss the fact that her pregnancy had progressed between her abortion and the follow-up appointment.

_Morgane Fay_
Yeah, but if you hold the choice for a 16-week abortion to be entirely independent of the choice for a 6-week abortion, why then not consider the choice to give up custody in the same light?


Um... I did. That's why I said limit it to delivery expenses and any medical attention the woman might need as an immediate result of labor and delivery (episiotomy care, puerperal infection, etc.), but that childcare expenses would be inappropriate to reward because retaining custody is wholly her decision and not connected to anything the hospital did or failed to do.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:37 pm


Holy crapola on a stick! That is one of the craziest lawsuits I've ever heard! I'd like to know how the hospital botched an abortion so bad that she delivered a perfectly normal, healthy baby...I mean, one would think it would have some issues after an attempted abort, right?

I don't know that I have an opinion on this one yet...still trying to process the craziness of it all...

PinkSapphire

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Pro-Choice Gaians

 
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