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 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:08 pm
How do you all believe? After everything? With everything going on?
I'm not wording this right...
I guess the best way to put it is I became an atheist because I couldn't believe in anything anymore. How did you all remain believers?
Is it support of family the entire time, blocking some things out, or just a faith I don't have? What is it?
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Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:03 pm
Kroenig How do you all believe? After everything? With everything going on? I'm not wording this right... I guess the best way to put it is I became an atheist because I couldn't believe in anything anymore. How did you all remain believers? Is it support of family the entire time, blocking some things out, or just a faith I don't have? What is it?
An honest question requires an honest answer.
There was a time where I questioned my faith. Not as much in whether there was a God or not, but which religion was the right one.
I went into studies for a good 3-4 year span, still learning new things and improving on my limited understanding, to find out If, and Which God/Religion was the right one.
I'm not going to unload religious facts or make you feel I'm forcing any one belief on you, so I will keep this more about my personal experiences through all of this.
What I found was a rich abundance in at the very least the existance of an intelligent designer, or creator. Some people interpret the evidence differently, and there are many Atheists/Agnostics who have brought forth good points and arguments, but for the most part I have concluded through my own investigation that there is, if you look hard enough, plenty of evidence providing the existance of a creator.
Now whether this Creator is Jehovah and the Christian belief system is right or not, I think there is strong, but not nearly as conclusive evidence for, but enough to have me believing that this one is the right one. I don't profess to have all the answers, but enough of the questions I had were answered.
And unlike your comment of "Support from your family" From my experience, there litterally was none. My Brother is an Atheist who hates how religious I am, (But at least he respects how intelligent and solid my base is for believing in God) My sister is a major Evolutionist whom I have had more than my fair share of arguments, and other members of my family have labeled me a radical Christian in the worst way. Some family and friends have given me support, but most of my immediate family, not as much. So that was actually a very difficult issue I had to deal with.
I think the best thing I can say about Faith is this, The Heart cannot accept what the mind rejects. As much evidence as I have found through my years of study, ranging from the Philosophical, Historical, and Scientific, Religion still needs a certain amount of hope, and 'Faith' regardless. If your mind is closed off from spiritual possibilities, then it is very difficult to find God at all.
But I think Faith is misleading too. Many people's description of faith is nothing more than Wishful thinking. If you 'Wish upon a star' and believe hard enough then it will be true. But bottom line is, if there is indeed no God, no amount of Faith will make one appear. One cannot find God, or establish a relationship with him on Faith alone.
I have faith, which is backed up by so much truth, from the evidence I have found, and through my spiritual experiences to convince me that there is a God who loves us. Many have come to alternate conclusions, but this is the one I have found.
I hope this at least gives you a better understanding, at least from where I come from as a Christian. Once again I don't want to force my belief on you, or make you feel uncomforitable with it, this is just the best answer I can give you to your question. And I would be more than willing to answer any other questions you may have, if you wish to ask them.
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Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:32 pm
Hm... Interesting question. I guess there are a lot of reasons.
1. The evidence around us. Humans are crazily complex. Like really, really complex. And everything else? Even more complex. It seems rather odd to me that something like that could happen by chance. Additionally, it seems even more strange that all matter as we know it just appeared in a big explosion caused by nothing. If you make a cause-effect flow chart, you have to have something at the top that happens to get the ball rolling. So what made the Big Bang happen?
2. Influence by my peers, although not really in the way you'd expect. I'll be the first to admit it. I'm a nerd. And I've had people make fun of me before. Anyone who has entered a school campus (well, anywhere really) knows that there are layers. For example, there's the popular people, and the jocks, and the exchange students, etc. I guess what I learned from this is that I really didn't want to be one of the popular kids. I didn't like their morals, their ways of life, and their outlook. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure some of the "popular kids" were great people and all, but I guess I just didn't want to be like them. I found that difference in Christianity. I found the morals in line with my own, and it definitely seemed like the right way for things to be. And with the teachings came the Teacher. So I guess that contributed to why I believed that God exists.
3. I sort of want it to be right, you know? I find the belief that there's nothing out there sort of... lonely. I'd much rather know that there is a God who keeps the universe in order, that there's Someone in control.
4. I guess that there's no bad things about believing, for me, personally. If, hypothetically, I die, and it turns out that there is no God, what do I lose? If I'm dead, then I wouldn't know that I was wrong. And it wouldn't be like my life before that would be wasted, either. I would still have a live a joyful life, and hopefully have been a generally nice person.
I'm hoping some of that made sense, and it wasn't just me rambling on. blaugh
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Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:43 pm
The big bang was made from a collision of any-matter and matter (am i wrong?) the end effect wa sthis universe now its called evoloution, humans did not just appear they gradually evolved from apes who gradually changed to keep up with the changing world around them
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:23 pm
Thank you for sharing...
Logically I have not been able to interpret facts to help belief.
And yea, I would like to be religious... but (as Green_Tea said) wishing for something does not make it true... my (possibly broken) chain of logic has led me to atheism, not any rejection of faith... but that could be it.
In religion I like to think I'm wrong... because if I'm right then nothing matters.
And as far as I can tell (just explaining my train of thought) everything has a secular explanation... could you elaborate a little more, Japanese_Green_Tea?
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:49 pm
Honestly, I look back at my life (i am 24 so no longer in highschool am married to a navy guy and went from small town missouri girl to military wife in Italy)
okay threw all of life adventures, triles and struggles (good and bad time) God has been there when no one else was and provide everything I needed I have no other way to say it or explain it. I mean i have been in so many life or death situations were I shouldn't have walked away or even lived and all i had were scratches or Bruses and that is it. Yet i am still alive today. I mean Even I surved Abuse, and Almost Raped Yet God has Provided healing and love and my everything
If i Had not had God I would have died or killed myself without the light and love he had given me. my life would have turned out for the worst.
and I probably would have ended up a bitter old hag with no concept of true love and fafillment.
I guess I can look around and see God face and presence in everything in the power, and vast majesty of his wonderous creation.
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Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:00 pm
There is the factoid that is also at times commonly missed. You don't have to have religion to believe there is some form of higher power. I personally believe that there is something that goes beyond the realm of science but I don't chose to say that it is this or that and I don't worship I say it is fine to go there is some things supernatural in the world and leave it at that then get on with life.
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Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:44 am
That's what it comes down to, isn't it?
Faith.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:07 pm
Kroenig Thank you for sharing... Logically I have not been able to interpret facts to help belief. And yea, I would like to be religious... but (as Green_Tea said) wishing for something does not make it true... my (possibly broken) chain of logic has led me to atheism, not any rejection of faith... but that could be it. In religion I like to think I'm wrong... because if I'm right then nothing matters. And as far as I can tell (just explaining my train of thought) everything has a secular explanation... could you elaborate a little more, Japanese_Green_Tea?
I do agree with you when you said, "In religion I like to think I'm wrong... because if I'm right then nothing matters."
If there is no God, life really doesn't matter. Many have tried to argue to the contrary, but when you get down to it, it doesn't matter how you live your life or what you do, because there is no rhyme or reason to life, and we are all just killing time till the end of all existence comes and the Universe is a lonely, empty, meaningless place.
In fact a really good lecture on this topic comes from Dr. William Lane Craig, and the lecture, The Absurdity of Life without God Which you can view here
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=5814558
The quality of the video isn't great, but it's the lecture which is important.
From a Scientific viewpoint, I found quite a bit of evidence supporting the existence of a Creator, which even made formerly renown Atheist Anthony Flew, one of the top defenders of Atheism for decades accept that there has to be a God. When many questioned whether if he was just getting old and senile, he commented that the scientific evidence is so overwhelming that if my collegues and I knew this when we were in college, none of us would have ever been Atheists.
Some of the evidence of this follows the Anthropic Principles, the improbability of the Big Bang without an Intelligent Designer behind it, and others. J.P. Moreland goes into detail on a video debate he had which can be viewed here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HiKjx7e67M
Also, a video from former Atheist Anthony Flew talking about his conversion as a result of the insurmountable evidence can also be viewed here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNkxpTIbCIw&feature=related
Now none of this is miracle conversion material, I don't expect anyone to view these and conclude immediately that there is a God. It took me years of studying to get to where I am today. And the more I studied the more and more confident I became that there has to be an Intelligent Designer. I think these video's are good starting points, also I wrote about my favorite philosophical argument for the existence of a Creator all about the argument for absolute Morals, which can be found at this link.
http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=16697401&page=2
Or just go to the 'Thread for Christian discussion, all are welcomed.' thread here in the Cult and Religions subforum, page 2 to read it.
I hope this will help you. Once again I don't expect this to change your mind in a blink of an eye, but rather just put a rock in your shoe, something to think about, and that there is solid evidence for a Creator. I'll try and answer any other questions you may have for me the best I can if any more come up.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:19 pm
The gap in time was fine - I understand internet trouble...
And I guess the biggest thing is thus:
FAITH.
If you have faith in something you can find whatever you want to support it while someone else finds it supports another conclusion...
For example, the "big bang" thing... the easiest counterargument is that because something is easily explained by a god does not mean that is what caused it. Ancient culture is an example of this... Ra the sun-god and all that.
And I don't know how to say what I am trying to... I'll post again when I form it into coherent words and phrases.
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Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:34 pm
Before I begin, I truly mean no offense, and I will claim complete ignorance where I am proven wrong.
But, this is where I'd have to say I feel like an oddball because I too believe there is something supernatural, however I do not consider it a higher power. I sincerely have trouble envisioning something that can create anything so complex, as already mentioned, without its likeness in mind. Now, where I really start to get confused is when some people say their god is perfect, then say they were created in the likeness of their God, but they themselves are not perfect. If their god truly was perfect, would they not have the capacity then to have their creations perfect as well? and if they decided to create imperfection anyway, Why?
I do not mean to be rude, but when faced with a thought like that I possess no ability to fathom a being truly above ourselves and the infinity around us.
Yes, we are indeed complex. Yet, isn't it possible that there are other universes out there beyond our own in which something simpler began? If we are sincerely complex as we like ourselves to believe, how could our universe signify the beginning of time? What if we are simply the product of so many other universes before us? and could we not contribute to next, hopefully even more advanced, level of existence?
Besides, the odds of only one itsy bitsy little planet being the only one to have life upon does not seem very likely. Once Life, even in the most basic form, starts, who knows if it shall ever really stop. Therefore I don't feel like we're really all that alone. all we have to do is be patient enough with our exponentially growing advancements in technology and science to discover any other presences.
which leads me to what I hope to be my last little rant. As scientific as I think I just sounded, I think that everything anyone believes has to have a little hope. We all hope for something, it just how we hope for it sometimes that seems to make the difference. Even science needs a little hope, or how else would someone want to make the advancement in the first place. some call it faith, or belief, both of which are more confident than its four letter relative. For me, hope is the basics and to say I have anything beyond that would be lying.
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:04 am
I think Agnosticism comes into this in all honesty. I just made a whole topic on it in here too ^-^
Heres a link if you want to look: Link
But here is a brief summary, that I have in the beginning there-
There are different levels of agnosticism, true. However, I think this is a good way of putting the basis:
Being agnostic does not mean you are atheist. It means you don't know, not only that you don't know, but that you can't know. You may accept the possibility of a higher power(which atheists do not), but you don't know, one way or the other. Agnosticism to me, is not a religion, but a philosophy, nor anti-religion, but a lack of.
In contrast to Agnosticism the simplest definition of Atheism would be:
Atheism can be either the rejection of theism, or the position that deities do not exist. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.
I admit it doesn't answer very many questions, but possibly incites many more, or ends questions without answers, who knows?
And despite my own agnosticism, I had a very interesting conversation with a Christian girl earlier today. I found it actually refreshing somewhat, compared to what I see so often of religious people.
- She was a very nice person, and believed in "doing what you preach." She was very genuine really, and not in your face about religion. She seems like a rather happy person that goes to church and youth groups and has dedicated herself to God. She is the type of person you will have said only a word or two to, and yet she will smile and wave to you in the hallway. Who does that anymore?
I think that, even if she were wrong, she can die knowing that she lead a good life and helped a lot of people, religious beliefs aside (should this continue).
Alas, we do not see that so often anymore. Too often religion is corrupted.
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:34 am
question
Wow, deep much? So many labels, so much confusion! Fact: Agnostic = to scared to make a decision, cause if there is a God I go to Hell and if not my friends might think I'm not cool. I know this isn't something shallow and week minded people can admit, but it is true... sorry if my fact blade is sharp.
Fact: Atheist = If I refuse to believe in a God, then there is nothing stopping me from doing whatever the hell I want to do and I can be as shitty of a human as I want to be with no worry of repercussions! And I'll act like I'm so good and nice without a God. Then I can say, SEE? I'M A GREAT PERSON AND IT'S NOT GOD, its MEEEEEEEE! Me, me, me, me... The heart of an atheist is way too focused on themselves to even fathom anyone or anything else that has power over them. Also, most claim to have no believe, yet they post more stuff about their (Lack of) believe than anyone else! I had one for everybody, but I just lost my GOF. All I can say is this, I have seen thing that can only happen from having true faith, faith in God, not any religion, not any cult or ideologue. This started with the question of how one continues to have faith. It is a choice... you chose to keep faith no matter what, or you chose to stop believing. If you have a lack of faith it was a choice. If you wish to start believing again, choose to! Yes, it is that simple!
PS, the post that rambled on and on about nothing and then said "I know I was all scientific" or something like that. I would like to point out that you at no point sounded anywhere close to being scientific, or even rational and self confident. You sounded like a PC indecisive rubber tree, bending to the direction of those around you...... SHEEP! Be who you are and stop making excuses for it!
Okay, done.... Let the "I don't have any faith, or believe in my heart" People start bashing with all their little might’s to prove there is nothing to prove...... Sad! Really, really sad.
dramallama
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Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:51 am
That was an amusing read actually, Annanuki.
If you say that agnostics are to afraid to make a decision, then I can say that religious people are too afraid of the unknown to accept that they don't know.
You say FACT when it is your OPINION.
Frankly, your entire post was an attack on those without religion, rather then an incite. Such things will get you nowhere and absolutely convert no one to your way of thinking.
I have made my decision, and that is to accept the fact that I don't know the answer to everything. The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.
Doubt and skepticism are wonderful things. Without them, no one questions anything, and without questions, you learn nothing. Every new discovery began with a question.
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:37 pm
Kroenig The gap in time was fine - I understand internet trouble... And I guess the biggest thing is thus: FAITH. If you have faith in something you can find whatever you want to support it while someone else finds it supports another conclusion... For example, the "big bang" thing... the easiest counterargument is that because something is easily explained by a god does not mean that is what caused it. Ancient culture is an example of this... Ra the sun-god and all that. And I don't know how to say what I am trying to... I'll post again when I form it into coherent words and phrases.
If I were to say, 'I think the Big Bang happened, because we exist, therefore it had to of happened.' true it means that there was a beginning, but us being here alone isn't a reasonable conclusion that the Big Bang was what caused us to be hear. The more bland and vague an explanation leads one to question whether if their reasons for believing what they believe is based on reasonable arguments or blank assumptions.
Beliefs in a certain religion or lack thereof should be like a chain linked suit of armor. Every link is it's own self supporting element, where even if one link fails, you still have armor that can hold up. The more links in the armor, the more it can hold up to scrutiny.
And as I have listed in previous posts in this thread and others, I believe there are many links in the armor that proves there is a creator. Be it Jehova, Bhudda, or other. And the more links you can add to your armor the less your belief appears to be "Faith" and the more you can defend it as Fact. Or that This is possible beyond reasonable doubt, even if it can't be 100% proven without a shadow of a doubt.
Remember, there is a big difference between doubt, and reasonable doubt. You can doubt anything and everything, but one must take a step back and ponder if it's within reason that they doubt what they are questioning.
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