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Vanilla eXee

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:44 am




Okay, first question: I have yet to see my Kuhli Loach eat. I sat in my brother's room watching the tank after I fed them bloodwroms. He swam by the worms and sniffed them a few times, but he didn't eat anything. I've had him for like 2 weeks now, so he'd be either dead or looking worse for wear if he hadn't eaten this whole time right?

Second question: One of my wrestling halfbeaks I suspect has parasites. He's eating and everything, but his stomach looks caved in. Should I treat the tank with salt for a few weeks?




PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:21 am


Fish can go longer than two weeks without food, but if he's not looking too thin I wouldn't worry. However, kuhli loaches are shoalers, and need to be in a group of three at absolute minimum. Otherwise they'll be stressed and unhappy. They're also not particularly hardy, and should only be in well established tanks.

Salt won't do anything for internal parasites. Your best bet would be to remove the fish to a hospital tank and treat him with meds that DO kill IP.

Feldspar


Vanilla eXee

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:31 pm




I'm aware they're shoalers (I would never buy a fish I haven't researched ahead of time), he was the last one and I'm waiting for the next shipment to get him some friends. The tank he's in is in my brother's room though, and my brother is never home so the room is always dark and quiet. It's the least stressful room in the house. His body is very full looking so it seems like he's been eating it's just that he sniffed at them and swam away so it worried me. But for all I know it's because I was watching him.

For the other fish, I'm going to ask my supervisor at the aquarium about other methods before I even think of using meds. Medicating a fish should always be the last thing you try. Since nothing new has been added to that tank for the past 8 months, there's gotta be something else that was wrong with him to make him susceptible to whatever parasites he may or may not have. To just medicate him when I don't know exactly what's wrong (something fishkeepers do all too often) is the worst thing I could do.

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:16 am


...But salt will do nothing whatsoever. :/ I'm fully aware that medicating a fish should be something you do as a last resort, but it's very likely your fish DOES have internal parasites, and he won't just spontaneously recover. You don't have to have added anything new to the tank for him to get infected.

As long as you follow the instructions on the meds, treating him for IP will NOT kill him even if that's not what he has. And since the only way to make a totally accurate diagnosis is a necropsy, you have to go with your best guess. The only other thing I can think of that it could possibly be is a bacterial infection, but that's not nearly as common. If the parasite meds don't work, however, your next course of action would be to treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic that covers both gram-negative and gram-positive bacteria.

Feldspar


KerriganBryce

PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 7:11 am


Vanilla eXee

I'm aware they're shoalers (I would never buy a fish I haven't researched ahead of time), he was the last one and I'm waiting for the next shipment to get him some friends. The tank he's in is in my brother's room though, and my brother is never home so the room is always dark and quiet. It's the least stressful room in the house. His body is very full looking so it seems like he's been eating it's just that he sniffed at them and swam away so it worried me. But for all I know it's because I was watching him.


I would also not be particularly worried. If he still looks good by this point he must be eating dropped food or something, otherwise you should notice some slimming and sluggishness by now. I also had an instance once with some corys that seemed to eat very little for a few weeks. Upon a closer look there were little white worms in my substrate which must have come in with some plants. Needless to say, I didn't have worms in the tank for very long . . . 3nodding

Vanilla eXee
For the other fish, I'm going to ask my supervisor at the aquarium about other methods before I even think of using meds. Medicating a fish should always be the last thing you try. Since nothing new has been added to that tank for the past 8 months, there's gotta be something else that was wrong with him to make him susceptible to whatever parasites he may or may not have. To just medicate him when I don't know exactly what's wrong (something fishkeepers do all too often) is the worst thing I could do.

Does the fish as a whole look thin, or is it a severly sunken stomach only? If mostly the stomach looks sunken, but the rest of him does appear a little gaunt as well, it can on a rare occasion be piscine tuberculosis. It is not easily treatable, is extremely difficult to diagnose (and it can only be tested for certain after death of the fish,) is highly contagious, and the prognosis is not often good. There are some meds, and I believe it is also suggested that baby vitamins can be added to the water to help prevent physical deformities of the ailing fish. Another big problem with this disease is that it is transmittable to humans (though not easily,) so if you even suspect the fish has this, be very careful with how you handle him and the water from the tank. Check out this link for more info.

While I fully agree with you regarding unnecessary medication (I prefer my tanks au naturale myself) sometimes getting the "jump" on a disease can literally make the difference between life and death for the little fellas. I understand your trepidation towards dosing, particularly when considering the stress levels involved with moving to a quarantine tank, possible injury, etc. So perhaps a gentle treatment would be the way to go for you until you gain a more certain diagnosis? For example, I have used Kordon's Rid-Fungus recently for a couple issues within a new tank, and it works very well without any apparent stress on the fish like some other meds. I actually mentioned this stuff in my first post, so I apologize for sounding like I'm advertising today or something! xp It uses ingredients from herbs (I believe it contains toxins from plants which most occupants have naturally high resistances to) rather than heavy metals or harsh chemicals, and it doesn't kill everything but the fish. The biological filter is unaffected, as well as inverts and plants, so you can dose in his original tank, no need to move him. It only kills external single-celled parasites and infections, but if the suspected internal parasite has a life-cycle with a fre-swimming larvae form, you're covered. It can also help prevent further complications and infections due to stress. I also believe there are some water conditioners containing fairly passive antibacterials. Using a regimen such as this, if it doesn't cure the fish, may help keep him alive and prevent secondary infections until you find out what is affecting him.

feldspar
...But salt will do nothing whatsoever.

It does help with the uptake of oxygen, and supposedly the shedding of mucus from the gills. Also, while fish are sick they may have osmoregulatory difficulties, and cannot retain enough salt or properly shed water in their waste. Extra salt can help them uptake more, and generally make things a little easier on the stressed fish.

Vanilla, while salt does kill parasites, it only does so because they are simple organisms and do not have organs to remove excess salt from their bodies. Fish, however, do. So if the parasite is internal, the fish's internal salt levels stay about the same. Salt is only effective for external parasites. So, Feldspar is correct in that the salt will not help kill whatever infection your fish may have if it is internal, but it can help in other ways and prevent undue stress.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:38 am




@feldspar: That's all fine and dandy, I said I would ask about other treatments, I didn't say "well I'm using salt anyway."

Treating fish unnecessarily could indeed kill them. I said I didn't add anything new, and I realize that doesn't mean he can't get infected, but what it DOES mean is that, if there are already parasites floating around in my tank, and none of the other fish are sick, and it took this long for him to catch them, there is probably an underlying health issue that weakened him enough to get infected. In that case, treating him with anything could very well kill him. Under normal circumstances under the right dosage, sure, he may be fine. But if he were already sick with something else, a normal dosage could kill him.

Also, a necropsy is not the only way to make an accurate guess of what's wrong with a fish. Tissue scrapings can be made and examined.

@Kerrigan: Yeah, I'm less worried now. He's looking really great and he does go crazy when I put food in. It's interesting that he does the same exact thing as the electric eels do when I feed them, once the food hits the water, he freaks a little, jumps to the top, then swims back down and starts swimming around looking for it. He probably just sees me and gets scared then eats when I'm gone.

As for the other fish, I'm honestly starting to think there's nothing wrong with him. It occurred to me that when I first got them they all looked the way he does, and that the other one might just be fat. I thought it was his stomach that was sunken, but the area that's sunken is actually further down from his stomach. So my problem is more likely to be an obese halfbeak than one with parasites. A perfect example of why you should not jump the gun and medicate without knowing what you're dealing with.


Vanilla eXee

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Feldspar

PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:19 pm


I didn't say you were. Look, based on the info you gave, I came to the most likely conclusion and suggested a course of action. Obviously it's not okay to toss meds in a tank at the slightest hint of trouble and you should explore every avenue first. I myself use them very rarely, because yeah, as we've established, they're not something you use lightly, but I HAVE used them and I'm not exactly talking out of my arse here. Again, if your fish DOES end up having parasites, meds are essentially your only option.

You don't need to have parasites floating around in your tank for a fish to suddenly come down with them. Many fish already have parasites, but it takes an outside stressor for them to actually make the fish sick, and that could be any number of things.

Obese fish are very, VERY rare, although after a big feeding they may have bulging bellies. When you feed your other halfbeaks, look for the belly bulge to determine where their stomach is to see if that's where your suspect fish is skinny.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:49 am


That's what I did and that's how I determined that he's probably not sick. Their stomachs are closer to their heads than I thought. When I feed him, his stomach does get full. The other halfbeak is the same size all around (except tail and beak) while the one I thought was sick has a dip in width closer to his tail.

Obese fish are not too rare, I've seen plenty. Understand that most casual fish keepers over feed because one of the most fun aspects of fish keeping is feeding.

Vanilla eXee

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