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 Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:40 am
It has been stated many times that initiation must be from woman to man/man to woman, and anyone who claims that they were initiated by their mother/father is usually immediately denounced. Here's the thing... In Witchcraft Today on page 42 of the PDF link (may be different depending on what edition you have) it states the following (bolded by me for emphasis): Quote: The law always has been that power must be passed from man to woman or from woman to man, the only exception being when a mother initiates her daughter or a father his son, because they are part of themselves.' (The reason is that great love is apt to occur between people who go through the rites together.) Though it may be a rarely occurring exception to the rule, from looking at this passage, it seems to indicate that it is actually ok for parents to initiate their children. Thoughts?
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Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:02 am
The thing I've always had trouble with in Gardner's books is telling the difference between when he's talking about what the New Forest coven did traditionally and in the past, i.e., what he was told by them, and when he's talking about Wicca as he practised it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:05 pm
But that particular passage is often quoted (without the last part) as being the reason why initiation is cross-gender. So if the first part is valid, why isn't the second part?
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Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:56 pm
Don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe people are just sneaky and only quote what properly supports their opinion wink
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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:26 am
Sanguina Cruenta The thing I've always had trouble with in Gardner's books is telling the difference between when he's talking about what the New Forest coven did traditionally and in the past, i.e., what he was told by them, and when he's talking about Wicca as he practised it. Same. This might be faulty, but I figure the first part is relevant to Wicca as a fertility-based faith. The second part, talking about initiating children, doesn't really work towards fertility and the honoring of polarity; how can (for example) my hypothetical daughter properly experience the gender polarity if I am the one initiating her? Would the context for the Mysteries still be imparted to her properly? And would passing on the traditions be worth the trauma experienced in letting her father initiate her? Not to mention that initiating children would be in violation of the law of the land and bring unwanted attention to Wicca.
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:45 pm
As to the polarity part I don't really have a clue, but the fertility part is somewhat implied, because (as the line states) the children are a part of their parents. So they are a living, breathing representation of that fertility.
I fully admit I'm way to chicken to bring this up in the PFRC or on A&J. sweatdrop But it is something that I wonder about.
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Violet Song jat Shariff Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:45 pm
ncsweet As to the polarity part I don't really have a clue, but the fertility part is somewhat implied, because (as the line states) the children are a part of their parents. So they are a living, breathing representation of that fertility. I fully admit I'm way to chicken to bring this up in the PFRC or on A&J. sweatdrop But it is something that I wonder about. I know this part of the passage was brought up on A&J not too long ago. Maybe a month or two ago IIRC. But it was brought out during the debate on if a HPS could act as HP if need be and this line was support of same-sex initiations. And true, the kids are part of the parents...but I'd hate to think of a continuation of the fertility cycle between the parent and child eek .
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Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:28 am
I honestly don't have an answer for you on this. Like others, I'm unclear if Gardner was talking about Wicca, or New Forest coven in this case.
I know my own priesthood, and other priesthood from different lineages, steadfastly refuse to even consider performing same-sex initiations, and have known them to be disapproving of those who have changed the wine blessing to be same-sex. That's been my experience.
And I don't know how much it comes up, in BTW, that children end up following their parents into the religion. Of my high priesthood's collective 5 children, none of them are Wiccan. Two are outer-court educated, two are completely indifferent to their mothers' religion and religion in general, and one converted to Roman Catholicism, deeming her mother's faith disgusting.
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:50 am
Wow, that's a shame about the last one.
Maybe in situations like this, where what Gardner says can happen doesn't actually happen, it's a case of Gardner musing to himself or speculating on possibilities, rather than something he was actually planning to put into practice or what others put into practice.
Someone on Amber and Jet just got her first degree and I'm feeling that "You know things I don't know and I want to know them!" itch again xd
But I've just recalled another question I had about Wicca, and I shall make another thread on the subject.
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Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:14 am
I've always been a little curious about Wiccan Initiation. To be a true Wiccan, you must be taught the Mysteries, correct? And to be taught, you must be initiated by one who is already a part of the religion (<-- couldn't think of any other way to put it). But what about those of us who would like to be a part of this religion but cannot find anyone willing to "share", so to speak? Are we just left out in the cold?
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Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:03 pm
Kymeara I've always been a little curious about Wiccan Initiation. To be a true Wiccan, you must be taught the Mysteries, correct? And to be taught, you must be initiated by one who is already a part of the religion (<-- couldn't think of any other way to put it). But what about those of us who would like to be a part of this religion but cannot find anyone willing to "share", so to speak? Are we just left out in the cold? Essentially, yes. If it's meant to be you'll find a coven in time. But there's no other way to actually practise the religion, so logically, if you can't find the coven, there's no way you can be a Wiccan. wink
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:38 pm
Sanguina Cruenta Wow, that's a shame about the last one. Maybe in situations like this, where what Gardner says can happen doesn't actually happen, it's a case of Gardner musing to himself or speculating on possibilities, rather than something he was actually planning to put into practice or what others put into practice. Someone on Amber and Jet just got her first degree and I'm feeling that "You know things I don't know and I want to know them!" itch again xd But I've just recalled another question I had about Wicca, and I shall make another thread on the subject. I get that. I'm one of those people that can't not want to know, but I'm also fairly sure Wicca isn't for me in any form. It's a frustrating circumstance. As to the topic, that's very interesting. I hadn't read that part (or possibly managed to skim over it). Good question.
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:10 pm
Okay, given that in America you must be 21 to drink, would that mean that covens here wouldn't initiate until you're 21?
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 3:22 pm
kage no neko Okay, given that in America you must be 21 to drink, would that mean that covens here wouldn't initiate until you're 21? You don't have to be 21 to drink communion wine at any of the christian churches that use alcohol in the ceremony.
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:16 pm
kage no neko Okay, given that in America you must be 21 to drink, would that mean that covens here wouldn't initiate until you're 21? While there are covens that will initiate at 18, from what I've heard 21+ is more normal. Especially if you consider that a coven won't even take you on for training until you are at least 18 to begin with, one would be 19 or older at the very least before initiation.
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