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iHorsetamer

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:22 am


Long awaited, the video of me and Ruby cantering.

Well, actually it's only long-awaited for me. Haha.
Anyway, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBYvmGo9H5A
(The video might not be processed just yet. Hopefully it is when someone clicks. Hah.)

Anyone who has seen my other posts here, you know pretty much what I'm dealing with.
I swear, this horse is going to kill me one of these days.
And it really doesn't help that the only slightly-safe-ish arenas has 2foot high fences!
The only other arena has a bunch of crap in it. There's a cow-brander-thing that takes up quite a bit of space. And it's COMPLETELY rusted, so if your horse crashes into it... Eugh. *shudder* It's really bad though. I hate both arenas.
But you'll see in the video that it isn't much better. She bolts out of it. I just need a ring that I don't have to avoid things or constantly make sure she doesn't jump over the fence! Augh.

Anyone have any advice to give me?
Especially involving the outbursts with riding her clockwise?

Thanks ahead of time!

(And don't worry about giving critisism. I'll take it. ^^ Please keep it constructive though.)
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:59 pm


from what i can see, you probably need a little bit more work at the trot before you'll feel more comfortable at the canter. at the trot, bring your hands forward, they shouldn't be in your lap, also, put less foot in your stirrup and sink dowwwn in those heels even more, and tighten your lower leg. (also bring it back a bit) the last thing i'd say is put an arch in your back, bring your shoulders up.

i had a trainer that used to say "ride like a snob" so stick your shoulders up, boobs out, and butt out haha.

for the canter, remember to do everything up there ^ plus, do not post into the canter. for most horses (i don't know how yours is trained, but this should be the case) posting into the canter really confuses them, and can also get them even more excited and will cause them to go faster and get fussy. so just sit, and use those legs (and sit up!).

hopefully i've helped a little? its hard to explain alot without really being able to show someone...haha i'm a show by example teacher alot of the time.... smile

good luck!

Pianoangel1


stargazer42

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:52 pm


Please DO NOT stick you butt out or arch your back. My apologies Pianoangell but your back should be straight, not arched. (I ride dressage)

Love is Forever, Relax your upper leg slightly, this will allow you to sink down into your stirrups more, allowing for better leg position and back alignment.

As for your horse, try using stronger half-halts to bring her back and listen to you better. Your are also almost always on the wrong posting diagonal. Rise when the outside leg is forward.

That's about all I can think of right away.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:12 pm


stargazer42
Please DO NOT stick you butt out or arch your back. My apologies Pianoangell but your back should be straight, not arched. (I ride dressage)

Love is Forever, Relax your upper leg slightly, this will allow you to sink down into your stirrups more, allowing for better leg position and back alignment.

As for your horse, try using stronger half-halts to bring her back and listen to you better. Your are also almost always on the wrong posting diagonal. Rise when the outside leg is forward.

That's about all I can think of right away.


nono i agree with that. don't want to look like a jelly bean or something...just don't slouch or anything, as in..umm....no couch potatoes? i think is what i'm trying to say. i've just noticed that sitting up and straight helps with horses who like to go faster, or who like to pull on your hands and jerk the reins out of your hands.

wow i am so confusing. i think what i'm trying to say is sit up nice a straight and tall?

Pianoangel1


Pianoangel1

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:06 am


oh i totally got what i was going to say (haha sorry, i wasn't paying attention to what i was doing lol)

don't over arch. i guess what i mean was not so much as arch your back as just have "good posture" its kind of like standing up nice and straight. my physical therapist calls it "accentuating" your posture. so yeah, i guess straight would be more the term than arch. haha took me a while, but i got it lol....brains runnin slow is all.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:11 am


Pianoangel1
from what i can see, you probably need a little bit more work at the trot before you'll feel more comfortable at the canter. at the trot, bring your hands forward, they shouldn't be in your lap, also, put less foot in your stirrup and sink dowwwn in those heels even more, and tighten your lower leg. (also bring it back a bit) the last thing i'd say is put an arch in your back, bring your shoulders up.

i had a trainer that used to say "ride like a snob" so stick your shoulders up, boobs out, and butt out haha.

for the canter, remember to do everything up there ^ plus, do not post into the canter. for most horses (i don't know how yours is trained, but this should be the case) posting into the canter really confuses them, and can also get them even more excited and will cause them to go faster and get fussy. so just sit, and use those legs (and sit up!).

hopefully i've helped a little? its hard to explain alot without really being able to show someone...haha i'm a show by example teacher alot of the time.... smile

good luck!


I agree with the trotting work as well. If you can believe it, that was probably the slowest Ruby has been in months! She used to be an endurance racer, and honestly I think it might have ruined her a bit.
Okay, I know what you're saying with the lower leg bit, but really, it is impossible for me to tighten that part even slightly. Ruby responds majorly to pressure, and even the slightest tap freaks her out into a galloping frenzy.
That's why my transitions are so bad, because I can't apply more than the minimum level of pressure to her.

I hadn't really thought of not posting before the canter. It does make sense, so that might be one of the main problems with her speed. Thank you!

iHorsetamer


iHorsetamer

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:16 am


stargazer42
Please DO NOT stick you butt out or arch your back. My apologies Pianoangell but your back should be straight, not arched. (I ride dressage)

Love is Forever, Relax your upper leg slightly, this will allow you to sink down into your stirrups more, allowing for better leg position and back alignment.

As for your horse, try using stronger half-halts to bring her back and listen to you better. Your are also almost always on the wrong posting diagonal. Rise when the outside leg is forward.

That's about all I can think of right away.


I will try to relax. Honestly, I'm just always a tad bit nervous when I ride her. She's very prone to bolting, and especially when the ring has 2 foot high fences, if she bolts out of the ring, she will jump over the fence, and that freaks her out even more.
As I said in one of the captions on the video, she has put me in the emergancy room for that. I fell as she turned and twisted my leg really badly. Almost broke my upper leg. :S

I've been working on half-halts, but the thing is, I don't have an instrutor right now. I haven't for about 3 years. My old trainer was a dressage rider, and don't get me wrong, that wasn't the problem. But Ruby herself would freak out even more when she was in the ring with us. And eugh, it was just really bad training I think.
Which means, I don't have anyone telling me when I'm rising wrong. Thank you so much for the rising point though. I'll pay more attention to that. (I hadn't known which leg to rise on and when.)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:21 am


Okay, a little update::

When I had an instructor, she had me ride her horses for a little while. She said that my posture was almost perfect when I rode her horses, but not usually when I was riding Ruby.

I think my posture is usually weird when I ride her, because she is so fast.
I find it really hard to slow her down with my posting, simply because she is so fast in the first place. She works against me for a long time, and then finally slows down and then tries to stop. As soon as I apply any pressure or "cluck" at her, she goes straight back to her normally fast self.

iHorsetamer


stargazer42

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:29 pm


You can try lunging her with your stirrups down. I do it for young horses I start because it desensitizes their sides to random pressure. It keeps them from bolting at a tiny tap. Also, don't be so conscious of her speeding up. What I mean is, if she speeds up, Keep going at the speed you want her to be at. Restrict her from blowing through your aids. Just provide resistance.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:59 am


That's a great idea.
Thank you!
I'll try that!

I'll try to do that as well, but my problem is that I can't slow her down once she starts going. If I try, she either stops on a dime and nearly throws me over, or she yanks on the reins until I can't hold her anymore. (Or she bucks, but that doesn't happen often. She used to buck as soon as she started cantering, but she doesn't do it anymore.)
But I'll try. Thanks.

iHorsetamer


Pianoangel1

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:38 pm


i actually had that same problem yesterday haha. it was my first day back riding since the physical therapist told me no riding, so i rode one of the beg. eq. horses that needed to go out. and she was fine trotting...but decided cantering was REALLY REALLY fun. haha we were galloping (one handed...woo!) , which was fine, but since i only had real use of one arm...i couldn't stop her lol.

so that was fun. haha i eventually stopped her by saying whoa alot (she's slightly voice commanded) and actually loosening my reins. ...i've found with that certain horses (may not work for yours) that actually not pulling to stop works better...its kind of strange...i'm not sure how exactly to explain it.

but nevermind haha that was my strange one armed story for the day lol
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:19 pm


Throwing the reins might actually work..... Just drop her on her face a couple times. We do it with dressage horses who lean on our hands too much. I do it to my horse a lot. It teaches them to back off and listen.

stargazer42


Ivoire de La Rose

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:33 pm


My friend and I saw your video of you training your horse in the canter. We have been riding with the same trainer for over 6 years, not to mention we have had much experience before hand with several types of horses (including trouble horses much worse than yours and we have trained horses that our trainer has sold for good money), so this is our critique...

1.) You CANNOT be nervous when you ride your horse. If you feel nervous or scared, you should not be riding that horse. If you feel nervous already, you have no reason to be training her because a horse like that needs confidence and precision, especially horses in training need a rider that can tell the horse with assurance what, when, and how to do something.

2.) You need to learn your leads. The first direction you were trotting in, you were posting on the wrong diaganol. This does not only confuse the horse, but it can hurt their back.

3.) Your hands are too far forward and too high up. This is what makes your horses head come up and forward. This could make then head-shy and nervous of the bit and this also screws up their neck muscles. So, hands should be down, steady, and positioned (not rested on), near the front of the pommel of the saddle. When you hold the reins, you should have your two second nuckles touching.

4.) You MUST work on your seat! If you have to, practice this at a REALLY slow pace. Bad seat can lead to the horse being confused with aids and you will screw up their back muscles. Before you EVER canter, you MUST have a proper seat. We speak from experience. One of our friends actually had to put her horse down because her seat was so bad, it screwed her horse's back up so terribly, that she became useless.

5.) Before giving the aid to canter, you must SIT three strong beats, preferably using your back a potential halfhalt to, three beats are minimum, but as our training, our trainer made us go over an hour lesson ONLY sitting trot, NO posting.

6.) DO NOT CANTER YOUR HORSE EVER, IF THEIR HEAD IS UP. I don't care how badly you want to canter, you CANNOT make your horse canter if their head is up. I do not care if you takes you weeks to accomplish this without any canter, but do not try cantering if you have a horse with a high head or if the head is too far to the outside. If the head is to the outside, it could throw the horse off balance causing them to falter and tweak the shoulders and ankles. Somebody looking to buy my horse did this, and they screwed his ankle and now he is ruined and can never preform the same again and he was brilliant, but now, I am out a perfect show horse.

7.) You need to have a slow trot, pre-canter. Do not ruch the horse into it by constant kicking and such. Before you canter and give the aid, it is best to give a strong, firm, but NOT violent halfhalt using the inside rein. Then, sit back, press your seat-bones into the saddle, swing outside leg back only a few inches, no more than 3. Throughout canter, (assuming you have accomplished getting your horses head under control), you should be giving slight, but firm halfhalts through the entire canter, if needed. If your horse does not know how to canter with the aid, then begin to practice giving the aid, but at the same use a whip (not hard, but so they can feel it, maybe even a firm tap), until your horse knows how to do this without the whip.

8.) DANGER!!!! AH!!! We saw you cantering and then suddenly change direction through the cavaletti's (poles on ground), and this can seriously ruin your horse. You can never do this (unless you have advanced skills), without your horse being flexed, supple, and understanding through the neck. Not to mention, UNDER CONTROL. And knowing what you're doing as a pair, horse and rider.

9.) The arena is no problem. The low fencing is typical dressage show material, and you will ALWAYS find this. The horse could care less about fence or no fence. We rode our untrained horses in a OPEN field (no fences whatsoever) in 20 meter circles BAREBACK. We know that this sounds like we're boasting, but it's possible. My other horse, a Quarter Pony blind in one eye, didn't know left from right when I first got her. She was literally un-rideable, but I trained her bareback in the open fields until she got the picture. She now can canter from a calm walk instead of rushing and she can successfully keep her canter smooth and flowing. I know you can do it, trust me- my horse was worse. Even on her best day she was absolutely HORRIBLE!!

10.) TO STARGAZER42: DO NOT TELL HER TO DROP THE REINS AND LET THE HORSE FALL ON HER FACE!!!!!!!!!!!! We know that dropping the reins works on most horses, but for this horse, its not a matter of leaning on the hands! She has no contact in the hands, which is ruining the horse and the rider's style. By dropping the reins, if dropped too fast, the horse can scrape up their face, make them head-shy, possibly break a jawbone, etc.! If dropped too slow, skin near the mouth will rip and other injuries will also occur. The rein-dropping is a tad too risky.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:19 pm


I'll have to watch the video again tomorrow when I can concentrate on it, my friends are trying to distract me at the moment razz

Does she know the one-rein-stop? Honestly, the biggest thing that I'm getting from this video and the other ones that you've posted is that she scares you. And I'm not saying that to be mean or to say that you shouldn't ride her. That's the last thing I mean. The reason I'm the rider that I am today is because I rode horses that scared the crap out of me when I was younger and learned how to get past that, to be able to control my nerves and use the energy that created for my own purposes instead of letting it inhibit my riding. You'll get better at that as you go, it just takes time and practice. smile
Anyway, back to the one-rein stop. You're biggest fear issue seems to stem from not being able to stop her.

Start at the halt, and make sure that you can isolate her flexing her neck either side. Don't do anything with your legs, just pull one rein back to your hip while leaving the other rein slack. She'll probably turn in circles at first, but just hold the tension on that rein until she stops moving and gives to the pressure. As soon as she does, drop the rein, and rub her on the neck. Practice both ways until she can easily give to pressure both directions without spinning in circles. Once you have her doing at the halt, move to trying it from the walk. It should get to where pull her head to the side and she immediately gives to the pressure and halts. Once you have it mastered at the walk, move to doing it at the trot. I wouldn't practice it at the canter, because it' a lot harder on her and will likely throw her off balance, but practice it often at the walk and trot as an "emergency brake" so that she will know to associate it with stopping.

Okay, back to the video.

Don't let her stop to itch like that. It's rude. I know that being itchy is annoying, but to slam on the brakes like that while your riding to itch is completely rude and unacceptable. She can scratch when you stop for a break. When she does that, send her forward.
Stargazer had some really good suggestions to about desensitizing her sides a little, which will help you. You need to be able to have a solid leg, or you can't affect her movement. She needs to know that pressure does not always mean GO.
As for the canter transitions, Pianoangel is exactly right about not posting into the canter. You seem to have kind of a circular problem between the two of you in the canter, however. Because she is tense, she goes faster, which causes you to tense and not be able to follow her movement as well, which causes her back to hollow, her head to come up, and her to run on her forehand. You pull back on the reins in an attempt to slow her, which just pulls her head farther up, hollowing her back more and making it impossible to sit on, which leads to you bouncing, which makes her more tense... I think you get my point.
So I'm going to suggest something that goes against my dressage world. Don't sit the canter. I used to be a huge advocate for always sitting, but after more research into biomechanics and learning more about how your seat affects your horse's movement, and training a few more horses, I'm becoming a bigger fan of getting off of your horse's back in the canter, especially if they're tense or green. Now, I'm not talking a full two-point or galloping position, I'm thinking just raise your weight slightly out of the saddle so you're staying balanced over the saddle, but not bouncing on her back. Some horses, this is all that they need to be able to stretch over their back. Not always, but if you're not bouncing on her, she'll have more opportunity to relax her back and start properly cantering rather than doing what is known by many trainers as the "pony gallop" canter.
Another thing that can be very useful for controlling a canter that accelerates like hers does is "posting" the canter. Now, this does not mean posting into the canter. What you do is you move in and out of two-point with every stride. So you sit for one stride, then "rise" into a sort-of two-point for a stride, then sink back into your seat the next stride, so it's not really a proper post, but it's a rising action. I used to use this with my thoroughbred on cross country, and the rhythm of my posting was able to help regulate his stride and we might have a prayer of coming in within time. You can also use your posting to help slow the stride. If you slow your posting by being almost a little sluggish to rise again, most horses will regulate their stride to match what you're doing to make it more comfortable for her. It feels awkward at first, but once you get the feel of it, it's almost easier than the posting trot. It was also the only way to regulate my thoroughbred's pace. He was off the track, so whenever I got up into two-point, he would accelerate, no matter how carefully I rode my half-halts.

I still think that you need to spend a lot more time in the trot perfecting your transitions and getting her bending and supple over her topline and throughout her body. I think I've given you exercises for that before? I can also give you some more, but not tonight, because I'm really distracted. I'll have to come back tomorrow.

Looking back through that, I realize that I might be being a little harsher than I normally am. I hope you don't get discouraged by that. As I've said before, you've got some good things going for you, and since you're showing a real hunger to learn, I'm going to try to help as much as I can. Ask lots of questions and keep working on it, you're improving more and more every time!

AriaStarSong


AriaStarSong

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:52 pm


iRoseThorn_xXx
My friend and I saw your video of you training your horse in the canter. We have been riding with the same trainer for over 6 years, not to mention we have had much experience before hand with several types of horses (including trouble horses much worse than yours and we have trained horses that our trainer has sold for good money), so this is our critique...

1.) You CANNOT be nervous when you ride your horse. If you feel nervous or scared, you should not be riding that horse. If you feel nervous already, you have no reason to be training her because a horse like that needs confidence and precision, especially horses in training need a rider that can tell the horse with assurance what, when, and how to do something.

2.) You need to learn your leads. The first direction you were trotting in, you were posting on the wrong diaganol. This does not only confuse the horse, but it can hurt their back.

3.) Your hands are too far forward and too high up. This is what makes your horses head come up and forward. This could make then head-shy and nervous of the bit and this also screws up their neck muscles. So, hands should be down, steady, and positioned (not rested on), near the front of the pommel of the saddle. When you hold the reins, you should have your two second nuckles touching.

4.) You MUST work on your seat! If you have to, practice this at a REALLY slow pace. Bad seat can lead to the horse being confused with aids and you will screw up their back muscles. Before you EVER canter, you MUST have a proper seat. We speak from experience. One of our friends actually had to put her horse down because her seat was so bad, it screwed her horse's back up so terribly, that she became useless.

5.) Before giving the aid to canter, you must SIT three strong beats, preferably using your back a potential halfhalt to, three beats are minimum, but as our training, our trainer made us go over an hour lesson ONLY sitting trot, NO posting.

6.) DO NOT CANTER YOUR HORSE EVER, IF THEIR HEAD IS UP. I don't care how badly you want to canter, you CANNOT make your horse canter if their head is up. I do not care if you takes you weeks to accomplish this without any canter, but do not try cantering if you have a horse with a high head or if the head is too far to the outside. If the head is to the outside, it could throw the horse off balance causing them to falter and tweak the shoulders and ankles. Somebody looking to buy my horse did this, and they screwed his ankle and now he is ruined and can never preform the same again and he was brilliant, but now, I am out a perfect show horse.

7.) You need to have a slow trot, pre-canter. Do not ruch the horse into it by constant kicking and such. Before you canter and give the aid, it is best to give a strong, firm, but NOT violent halfhalt using the inside rein. Then, sit back, press your seat-bones into the saddle, swing outside leg back only a few inches, no more than 3. Throughout canter, (assuming you have accomplished getting your horses head under control), you should be giving slight, but firm halfhalts through the entire canter, if needed. If your horse does not know how to canter with the aid, then begin to practice giving the aid, but at the same use a whip (not hard, but so they can feel it, maybe even a firm tap), until your horse knows how to do this without the whip.

8.) DANGER!!!! AH!!! We saw you cantering and then suddenly change direction through the cavaletti's (poles on ground), and this can seriously ruin your horse. You can never do this (unless you have advanced skills), without your horse being flexed, supple, and understanding through the neck. Not to mention, UNDER CONTROL. And knowing what you're doing as a pair, horse and rider.

9.) The arena is no problem. The low fencing is typical dressage show material, and you will ALWAYS find this. The horse could care less about fence or no fence. We rode our untrained horses in a OPEN field (no fences whatsoever) in 20 meter circles BAREBACK. We know that this sounds like we're boasting, but it's possible. My other horse, a Quarter Pony blind in one eye, didn't know left from right when I first got her. She was literally un-rideable, but I trained her bareback in the open fields until she got the picture. She now can canter from a calm walk instead of rushing and she can successfully keep her canter smooth and flowing. I know you can do it, trust me- my horse was worse. Even on her best day she was absolutely HORRIBLE!!

10.) TO STARGAZER42: DO NOT TELL HER TO DROP THE REINS AND LET THE HORSE FALL ON HER FACE!!!!!!!!!!!! We know that dropping the reins works on most horses, but for this horse, its not a matter of leaning on the hands! She has no contact in the hands, which is ruining the horse and the rider's style. By dropping the reins, if dropped too fast, the horse can scrape up their face, make them head-shy, possibly break a jawbone, etc.! If dropped too slow, skin near the mouth will rip and other injuries will also occur. The rein-dropping is a tad too risky.

confused Your attitude is coming across... very condescending. Not everyone has the means to get a perfect horse, nor has access to a wonderful trainer whenever they need them. Some people just have to work with what they've got. LoveIsForever has a great relationship with Ruby, their riding just needs a lot of work. She knows this, which is why she posts these critique requests here.
Most of the things that you posted were theoretically correct, but you gave her very little constructive criticism to work with. Don't let her run around with her head in the air? How should she get it down?
Also, not every discipline teaches sitting into the canter. Many hunters almost never do. Personally, I don't advocate sitting on horse's who do not have the strength in their topline to canter in good balance. You might argue that they shouldn't be cantering if they can't be in balance, but I can give you a list of exercises that I do with my horses to improve their balance in the canter, if you'd like.
By the way, I am a trainer.
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Temple of Equus - A horse Guild

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