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 Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:17 am
This is a topic that me and Eoforgar have been discussing outside of Gaia. It's a topic with a few inconsistencies regarding people bearing wings.
There are people who bear wings (who tuck them into an incorporeal pocket realm when not in use) in my world, but realistically in our world we'd have to look rather different in order for them to work. In another world/universe where the laws of physics might not be exactly the same as ours, and/or where magic and the supernatural are more widely recognised and accepted as being real, some plausible options need to be put in place.
Look at the anatomy of a flight bird...
Flight Muscles
Pectoral Girdle (Bird Skeleton)
Bird Wing Structure
Fictional Avian Skeleton Diagram (bird)
It's really about:
1.) Pectoral musculature
2.) Anchorage for flight muscles
3.) Strength of muscles
4.) Skeletal structure
In another world/universe, as is in my own world, you can have people whose biological structures are much more reinforced, which gives more clarity to the idea. That way you're not really going to have to try and re-design human biology (unless you absolutely want to, which isn't what I'm going to bother doing because I liked my winged people to still look human rather than a freaky human cross bird hybrid).
Read JBS Haldane's "On Being the Right Size", and Human Enhancement & Biopolitics. It talks about the ideas I've been having regarding the more "superhuman" point of view.
Here are a couple of interesting diagrams about the anatomy of dragons regarding flight musculature as well...
Dragon Diagram
Dragon Musculature
A note to Eoforgar: You've enlightened me on the subject, but not swayed me into making any of my winged people looking extremely weird. So let's just rest on this with plausibility, recognising we're not talking "earth" exactly, and we're also including supernatural and superhuman tendencies as well.
I'm crafty, so let's not treat me like a cat alright? I don't want to have to (metaphorically) extend my claws. biggrin
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:56 pm
DM_Melkhar It's a topic with a few inconsistencies regarding people bearing wings. Could you list those inconsistencies? All the scientific evidence (including the two web articles you referenced) indicates that it's not possible... DM_Melkhar In another world/universe where the laws of physics might not be exactly the same as ours, and/or where magic and the supernatural are more widely recognised and accepted as being real, some plausible options need to be put in place. The knock-on effects of changing the laws of physics aren't worth considering! So I think it's down to magic/ the supernatural to solve the problem in a plausible manner. That's not to say that we have to just wave it away as 'it's magic' though; I think a pseudo-scientific explanation involving the enhancement of existing concepts is the way to go... Now, the relevant information from Peter Dickinson's Flight of Dragons: "The record in the animal kingdom for lift is held by the Canada goose, which lifts 4.2 pounds of body-weight for every square foot of wing. The Swallow, by comparison, lifts 0.3lb. Apart from birds, the record belongs to the bumble-bee, which lifts 2.5lb. The difference is accounted for by the peculiarity of feathers, which allow air to pass through them from above to below, but not in the opposite direction, and so increase the pressure difference."
"...both the Canada goose and the bumble-bee, which carry their weight so efficiently, have dumpy bodies. Their main mass consists of the flight-muscles, located as close as possible to the wing-roots. Fliers with differently structured bodies need much bigger wing areas, more comparable to the swallow at 0.3lb. per square foot, or even the butterfly at 0.025."
So, the most generous I think we can go is 1.5lb of lift per square foot of wing, taking into account enhanced flight muscles and extra efficient lungs to make room for them... therefore a person of 12 stone (168lbs) would require 112 square foot of wing area, split across two wings. Assuming each wing is about 3ft deep, it'd need to be approximately 19ft long, just to lift the winged person's own body weight.
However, we still haven't accounted for something else key to this discussion: airspeed. Large birds, such as the Canada goose, need to take a run-up in order to get airborne. This is due to the way the wing works - in order for it to achieve the previously stated lift, it needs to be travelling at speed. Unfortunately I don't have any convenient references on this subject, but my general knowledge of it is that even 'petrol' powered model aircraft need to travel faster than a man can run in order to take off... I'm guessing a human would need a long run-up at a speed akin to that of a cheetah - which in itself is designed specifically for running fast. Not plausible.
As I've previously mentioned, Peter Dickinson concluded that the only way a dragon could have flown was if it's body was essentially a hydrogen-filled blimp. Now, that's a purely scientific explanation, which isn't going to suit winged humanoids, as we don't want these characters to start looking like they're obese!
So yeah, it's gotta be magic, and seriously strong magic at that...
I think the way to go is to develop the 'pocket realm' idea into something that actually enables the flight.
Perhaps the winged characters (& your dragons) somehow simultaneously exist on both the regular material plane and this 'pocket realm', where the atmosphere is somehow dense enough to support the weight of a large flying creature... therefore their weight is no longer an issue.
How does that sound? It's pretty simple & just extends the concepts already in place.
DM_Melkhar I'm crafty, so let's not treat me like a cat alright? I don't want to have to (metaphorically) extend my claws. biggrin
The only time I want to explore that cat analogy more is when you're wearing a cat-suit at the next Achtung! wink
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:01 pm
Actually, thinking about that a bit further... an atmosphere dense enough to support weight would have to be liquid, which is a pretty weird concept, but probably do-able; but it'll have further implications that require more development. (not now though, as I'm going to bed...)
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:34 am
Hmm, having thought on it a bit more, I reckon the physical adaptions to living in a liquid atmosphere would result in some rather bizarre looking winged people and dragons (like penguins!).
So, my vote goes for large flying creatures having a natural magical ability to negate the effect of gravity; not 100%, because then they'd just get blown around by the wind!
Any alternate theories?
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:18 am
As I believe wholeheartedly in the existence of magic and the supernatural, that sort of thing is plausible for me. I won't go into more detail about my idea of this pocket realm because I'll only share my ideas to a point because quite frankly they're mine and I don't want anybody sapping too much from them until I'm safely published and copyrighted.
I'm so nice aren't I? 3nodding
The reason being I've had ideas stolen in the past (even though it was all role-play etc and not literal publishing), and therefore liken me to a parent goose when you get too close to its goslings. Those birds are vicious!
Anyhow!
You've given me an idea regarding the pocket realm anyway. *Mind goes into plotting mode.*
Liquid atmosphere.....not doing anything for me really.
I also think that WE exist in more than one realm as I believe we are also spiritual. So, the idea of these character existing simultaneously in other realms has credibility.
With regards to "lift", if you run at pigeons or various songbirds, they'll take flight more or less immediately. If we're considering supernatural/superhuman/magical qualities here, then lift off from standstill wouldn't be all that much of a problem. If there's going to be a run up, I'm thinking there'd be a nice big cliff nearby. I love such images.
----------------
If I can get one of those catsuits on eBay for £22.95 then I shall....when I have money. razz
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Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:37 pm
I suppose it's a bit odd that I haven't thought of any winged humans in my stories, huh? Still, since I'm unsure as to how to make them believable I haven't really got into it.
Say, what do you both think of characters like "The Angel" from X-men comics? That guy has angel like wings and he keeps them folded behind his back and usually kept covered by a long coat or alike. He wasn't made in a way that he would look like an ugly man-bird hybrid and I hear the character has fans.
I don't know lot about this character except for the things I've seen on the X-men TV series from the 90's. On that show you see how he becomes Archangel and his wings are transformed into metal and they can launch metallic shards for attacking.
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:21 am
I enjoy Angel (he's got a pretty good storyline, although I don't actually read the comics), but, as with many of the X-men characters, his powers go beyond the realm of science-fiction & pseudo-science into the realm of fantasy (technically speaking). DM_Melkhar If I can get one of those catsuits on eBay for £22.95 then I shall....when I have money. razz I'm gonna have to go take a cold shower... wink
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:41 pm
Both science fiction and pseudo-science are still fantasy in a way, they just tend be more about futuristic speculation.
*Trails of into the realms of the woman for a moment...*
I'm not sure I look quite right for that sort of thing right now. I have a few concerns about my Rayne costume meaning I'm going to have to use my bedroom as a mini gym. confused
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:57 pm
So Eoforgar, you've seen the Angel in the last X-men movie? Where else did you see him? I haven't read comics (at least not the originals in English) and the ones that I have read (just a few in Spanish) do not feature Angel at all.
I'm glad we ca talk about pseudo-science here too. Even if it's mostly about speculating about the future, he-he.
So Mel, yer gonna have to use yer bedroom as a mini gym? Good luck with that!
BTW, keeping to the topic I thought of something. What do you all think of the wings you can equip here on Gaia? Do any of them inspire you to make a character with those wings or not?
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:45 am
No, they look absolutely fake. The Kachina Dancer ones are evidently just meant to be Native American style strap ons, and unless one's avatar is meant to be a fairy the elemental ones just make said avatar look interesting.
Gaia said in what....2004 or maybe 2005 that they were going to make angelic-style wings that could be equipped and they STILL haven't done it. I'm guessing now if/when they do make them they'll only be available in the sodding CASH SHOP, or on the marketplace for well over 100,000 gold.
So no, Gaia wings don't have any kind of bearing on my characters at all.
The creators of Gaia have turned into money-sucking morons after quoting "Gaia will always be a free site". They only asked for money from the monthly collectibles and donations to keep them going, and now to get any decent items you either have to be a rich Gaian or spend real money. Why would I want to get inspiration from such things anyway. I don't PAY for inspiration.
What gives me inspiration is folkore/mythology, history and other fantasy ideas.
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Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:47 pm
Well, some of the Kachina dancer look a bit good even if they look fake. mrgreen I used to have them on my Kenshin Belmont avatar but then I realized they took too much space and obstructed the view from the background.
Hmm, you know.... maybe they thought they satisfied everyone with the wings from the angel bow. You know which one I mean, right? Those wings do look kinda angelic but they're not so cool. I don't know what's with the people who run Gaia but it seems that they've forgotten their promise about the site always being free. I usually don't pay for inspiration either but I got to admit that some things I've paid for have given me inspiration like: FF7 or most of my Castlevania games for example.
Now that I'm in the subject of Castlevania, has anyone seen the main character of Order of Ecclesia (Shanoa) when she uses the Volaticus Glyph? She looks like some kind of weird angel with purple wings. I thought her wings would be cooler but they ended up looking a bit weirder than I expected. rolleyes
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Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:00 am
You don't buy the games for inspiration though do you? You buy the games to play them, and whether or not inspiration comes out of it is a free bonus.
Back on topic...
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:08 pm
Yeah, that's pretty much it. Free bonus indeed! wink Say Mel, how is that Valkyrie Profile game you've been going at? Do any of the characters have wings? I'm pretty sure the Valkyries do but, how about the rest? BTW, since it seems that you can't play Order of Ecclesia, I'd like you to take a look at the first few seconds of this video and tell me what you think of the main character when she uses the Volaticus Glyph. I mean, do you think the wings look good or a bit ridiculous? I gotta warn you that the video in question shows the ending of the game so if you don't want to have it spoiled, just watch the first minute and that's it. Whoever was controlling Shanoa is really good, no damage from Dracula at all! I must say I'm quite impressed... 3nodding
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:18 pm
Erm, the wings Shanoa is using....they don't look big enough and there's practically no beating done of them whatsoever. You'd need to beat them quite forcefully to hover like that.
Look at this video of a boss fight with a Harpy in Valkyrie Profile - Valkyrie Profile: Lenneth - Harpy boss battle.
Actually, it's the original PS1 version, but it's still the first game. They just added Lenneth in to the PSP title - you play Lenneth you see.
Even for people with wings, they'd need to be a lot more like that and would need to be beating like that for hovering, otherwise you'd just drop.
Damn good game this. I love the music in this game.
Look up the title and add "music" into the search to find lots of great music from it. The boss battle music is called "Confidence in the Domination" and there's reminiscent and nostalgic track called "Epic Poem to Sacred Death"as well. Inspiring!
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Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 5:05 pm
Thanks! Not only do they have a really weird looking color (or colors), they don't look like they're actually following any physics whatsoever. Maybe their excuse is that they're magical wings, he-he. rolleyes So, not big enough, eh? I never thought of that... I thought their size was fine. Shows how much I know about aerodynamics, huh? Looking at video... Ok, I finally finished watching the first part of the video where they fight a harpy. I noticed the differences between the Harpy's wings and the Valkyrie's wings. I thought it was odd that the Valkyrie''s wings look more magical while the Harpy's wings look more natural. I couldn't watch the whole thing cuz I gotta log off now and the video hasn't finished loading yet. ...so you play as Lenneth on the PSP. hmm? Good to know. I agree. I may not know much about aerodynamics but I do know about the whole "hovering" thing you mentioned. Cool to see you like the music in these games. I'll look it up later cuz now I don't have as much time. Hey Mel! I just looked at the intro video in the DS game. Does the whole "leave a feather" thing a part of every Valkyrie profile game? I don't know cuz I have never really played one. It is said that Valkyries always leave a feather in the place where they picked up a warrior. That's true for all the games, right?
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