Rant about modesty

[In Medias Res III]

Where do I even begin? I admit that the women in Egypt were seemingly not respected- at all, unless they were from a wealthy family which is easy to spot considering wealthy women generally do not wear hijab. I had almost no interaction with women at all aside from in Aswan, and even there the Nubian women refused to make conversation aside from wanting to know if we needed anything. Now, I believe in modesty and even though I don't follow Tznuit Laws, wear hijab, or even look like an Amish (although I am progressively becoming more modest recently) I have not, do not, and will never think that a woman wearing a headscarf is a symbol of oppression.

I always end up infuriated while arguing about the 'oppression of women in Islam'. Let's look at Christian modesty for a moment. Having been the good little Catholic girl and then sent off to a VERY strict Presbyterian school with a bunch of pastor's children, we were taught that sexualizing ourselves is wrong (yes, I did rebel in my teenage years) and that we are perfect the way we are and will go to Hell for wearing makeup, having our skirts above the knee and on some days *gasp* showing our elbows! Although I have many issues with instilling this kind of fear into children, with sex being plastered on everything and anything that it can be in our society, we seem to be declining in good morals.

The feeling of being accepted for who you are and not what you look like is a very fulfilling feeling. It is not healthy to concern yourself with weight, hair, makeup and spending hours upon hours staring into the mirror thinking you'd be happier with a larger bust size or a bumpless nose. As someone who does have an eating disorder and is slightly more vocal about it only for others to learn from, our culture sucks. I admit I am a hypocrite at times but I am also a product of Western culture and it's difficult to shake that. We're teaching our little girls that it is OKAY to look like prostitots, it is OKAY to be boy crazed at a young age, hell, Tyra Banks had a girl on her show who was taking fertility pills to try and get pregnant. She was fifteen and her boyfriend was eighteen!

I think that we have been influenced so much by the media that we as a society cannot fathom that happiness cannot be obtained by how attractive we are or how much money we make. We forget that family, friends, our own beliefs (whatever they may be) and respect for ourselves and others is what will make us happy. In an attempt for superficial popularity we lose ourselves, we forget who we are as a person.

Every girl has dated at least one guy who was only out for sex. The more modest I dress, the less frequently I attract negative attention.

Dressing modestly attracts men who are interested in you for who you are, not what they think they can get from you. It significantly decreases the number of toxic people who become a part of your life. The same toxic people who have pressured me into taking drugs and left me on a street corner, have given me ecstacy at a party when I wanted a Tylenol, have taken me into sketchy abandoned parking lots to 'talk', and various other frightening situations. Get the idea?

But what does this have to do with Islamic women?

Depending on how wealthy or poor the country is will indicate how egalitarian it is. Do not blame Islam or the Q'ran for the lack of women's rights; there is a huge difference between religion, culture, and customs. In Iran (this is shocking to most) women must wear headscarf but are allowed to show their hair! It's also a much wealthier country than Egypt. Hijab in this case is a sign that women respect themselves enough not to be put on display, which in turn makes for a safer environment for them. Egyptian men see ALL Western women as prostitutes because we do not dress in a way that shows (to them) that we respect ourselves or have any religious values.

Having said this, there is also a significant religious reason for hijab. Not only is hijab extremely beautiful in itself but it makes Muslim women feel beautiful! The idea of covering a part of yourself, keeping it mysterious, sharing it only with your husband, and respecting yourself for Allah is a feeling of accomplishment.

I have not seen any articles going on about the oppression of women in Orthodox Judaism! Isn't is required by Halacha that a married woman covers her hair?

I have to stop blabbering now but keep this in mind; if you follow a certain law or rule within a religion do you do it because you must in order to avoid eternal damnation or any other form of punishment, or does it make you happy?

I use the same philosophy as a Noachide. I follow Kashrut laws as closely as possible (impossible because I am not Jewish) but when I consciously make the decision to, say, not mix dairy and meat, I feel as if I have done something good.I feel even better when no one notices! This is sacred to me. I don't do it because it's ordered of me but I choose to do it because it makes the bond between me and Hashem even stronger.

It comes down to just that; the relationship you have with Gd.

I wore a headscarf for a day once and I felt empowered as I always do when I make the decision to be modest. I feel independent, confident, and more myself than ever. All the Muslim women I have spoken to have the same thing to say; they feel proud of themselves and confident that they are able to be modest. It is a VERY spiritual experience.

In the end it is a woman's choice whether or not to wear a headscarf (in this country at least) and to find so many Muslim women continuing their values in the Western world is very respectable. It's hard for them to do so, especially with many people not understanding Islam, but they won't let it harm their spirituality.

We should embrace diversity.  

[Verderbnis]

I wonder if western "culture" ever gave a ******** about dignity, it's not only the scarf, which is not my topic in that sense. I am not seeking boobs when searching for a partner, but for traces of intelligence (don't worry, I tend to look down on most people, it's a general thing).

Really, if you're only ranting about modesty, keep an eye on the whole. All your life you hear the lie that you're only successful by selling yourself. "Buy a car, be free!" ever noticed that? You are required to meet certain necissities, to be socially accepted. Best thing is to be white, christian and born into a wealthy family.

The "modesty" is only one of the evils. And now we have to face ideologies which are further progressed than our current western ones, in some points...  

[In Medias Res III]

Verderbnis

I wonder if western "culture" ever gave a ******** about dignity, it's not only the scarf, which is not my topic in that sense. I am not seeking boobs when searching for a partner, but for traces of intelligence (don't worry, I tend to look down on most people, it's a general thing).

Really, if you're only ranting about modesty, keep an eye on the whole. All your life you hear the lie that you're only successful by selling yourself. "Buy a car, be free!" ever noticed that? You are required to meet certain necissities, to be socially accepted. Best thing is to be white, christian and born into a wealthy family.

The "modesty" is only one of the evils. And now we have to face ideologies which are further progressed than our current western ones, in some points...

What you described is all encompassed in modesty. Whether it be parsominia, frugality, or covering from head-to-toe, it's all the same thing.

I was addressing the headscarf specifically because it's what I was writing about in my encounters in the Middle East, but parsimonia is a part of it. Hence, why Jews are so "cheap".

I don't think it's good to look down upon others. It automatically gives you a sense of elevated worth and that you are somehow better than another person.

I don't believe that others are lesser beings than I am, less intelligent, less attractive, or whatever it may be. Only differences exist.

My ex thinks that she is better than a lot of people and has the right to judge others, it's a very very very unattractive and downright ugly characteristic of her personality.

I'm white (to the majority of people), wealthy, and born into a Catholic family and as unhappy as they come, and it used to be very unfavorable here. There is still a very negative connotation regarding wealthy Italian Catholics. I'm sure if I was in Egypt it would have been dangerous to be born Coptic instead of Muslim.

Everything is relative.

Now I must go and hopefully pass a damn exam.

BTW, Pierced, good song! Very folky though XD  

[In Medias Res III]

One of the most beautiful pictures I have ever taken.  

[Verderbnis]

In Medias Res III

I don't think it's good to look down upon others. It automatically gives you a sense of elevated worth and that you are somehow better than another person.

I don't believe that others are lesser beings than I am, less intelligent, less attractive, or whatever it may be. Only differences exist.

My ex thinks that she is better than a lot of people and has the right to judge others, it's a very very very unattractive and downright ugly characteristic of her personality.

I try to fix my bad habit, it's just that I faced so many people who do things other than I would do. Most of this is just a misunderstanding on both sides. For me it often like: "My mind starts to work where others end."
I am fixing my school degree and I am confronted with that stuff, which bored me 7 years ago, again.

I need challenge, not repeating, and that's what most people bring to me.  

[Im A Little Pea]

I generally agree. It's a cultural thing, after all. The fact they're wearing a headscarf, does not mean they're oppressed.
However, I do wonder why it's the women who must be modest and shouldn't even show their faces or hair, but not the men. This fact shows a certain problem, in my view. If it really is all about focusing on what's really important, shouldn't it be the same for both sexes?  

[In Medias Res III]

Im A Little Pea

I generally agree. It's a cultural thing, after all. The fact they're wearing a headscarf, does not mean they're oppressed.
However, I do wonder why it's the women who must be modest and shouldn't even show their faces or hair, but not the men. This fact shows a certain problem, in my view. If it really is all about focusing on what's really important, shouldn't it be the same for both sexes?

It is my understanding that in Islam men should be covered up as well just not to the same extent.

The main problem is that WE hold the power to make men think impure thoughts so women can manipulate men's feelings but women can't be manipulated by men.

Women have sexual power, but are not sexual beings

Such silly archaic thinking...  

[Im A Little Pea]

In Medias Res III

Im A Little Pea

I generally agree. It's a cultural thing, after all. The fact they're wearing a headscarf, does not mean they're oppressed.
However, I do wonder why it's the women who must be modest and shouldn't even show their faces or hair, but not the men. This fact shows a certain problem, in my view. If it really is all about focusing on what's really important, shouldn't it be the same for both sexes?

It is my understanding that in Islam men should be covered up as well just not to the same extent.

The main problem is that WE hold the power to make men think impure thoughts so women can manipulate men's feelings but women can't be manipulated by men.

Women have sexual power, but are not sexual beings

Such silly archaic thinking...

So why is there a difference?
I wonder whose idea it was - men or women... I can think of reasons for both. But anyway, the fact that it's only women who wear a hijab is what's making people think of it as a sign of oppression (I don't think it is, just clearing that out). Like you said - isn't it some sign of archaic thinking, after all? I mean, it's not only in Islam, it's the same in Christianity and Judaism as well. I'm very curious about this whole thing. It's very interesting to try to figure out where it came from, and from which side...  

[In Medias Res III]

Im A Little Pea

In Medias Res III

Im A Little Pea

I generally agree. It's a cultural thing, after all. The fact they're wearing a headscarf, does not mean they're oppressed.
However, I do wonder why it's the women who must be modest and shouldn't even show their faces or hair, but not the men. This fact shows a certain problem, in my view. If it really is all about focusing on what's really important, shouldn't it be the same for both sexes?

It is my understanding that in Islam men should be covered up as well just not to the same extent.

The main problem is that WE hold the power to make men think impure thoughts so women can manipulate men's feelings but women can't be manipulated by men.

Women have sexual power, but are not sexual beings

Such silly archaic thinking...

So why is there a difference?
I wonder whose idea it was - men or women... I can think of reasons for both. But anyway, the fact that it's only women who wear a hijab is what's making people think of it as a sign of oppression (I don't think it is, just clearing that out). Like you said - isn't it some sign of archaic thinking, after all? I mean, it's not only in Islam, it's the same in Christianity and Judaism as well. I'm very curious about this whole thing. It's very interesting to try to figure out where it came from, and from which side...

it all boils down to patriarchy.  

[Verderbnis]

Women have to be sexy, because most men are still "instinct driven animals".

"Fair hair, clean skin, big boobs, nice butt. I'll take it!", that's what most think, not "Wow, she is so intelligent and has such a great character."

Mankind has invented the wheel more than once and discovered the fire twice, but never passed animalism.

Ok, sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's one thing I have thought about recently and it was one of the solutions.  

[Im A Little Pea]

Verderbnis

Women have to be sexy, because most men are still "instinct driven animals".

"Fair hair, clean skin, big boobs, nice butt. I'll take it!", that's what most think, not "Wow, she is so intelligent and has such a great character."

Mankind has invented the wheel more than once and discovered the fire twice, but never passed animalism.

Ok, sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's one thing I have thought about recently and it was one of the solutions.

I still wonder if the appearing difference between female and male sexual drive really is hormonal, or maybe it's this way just because of society.

This thought, as harsh as it is sometimes true, probably doesn't exactly apply to anyone. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have sex, right? It's all natural. I guess this is where the question of education kicks in, though - how much respect do you have for other human beings, how you've been brought up, and so on. For some this is sacred, for some it's just fun. Some don't really care how others feel so they treat them like trash.
I do not think all men are just out for sex. I've dated some guys who were, and some who wouldn't do it with someone whom they do not love, and doesn't love them too. Women can be just as bad, and honestly, like In Media Res said, it probably all boils down to patriarchy.  

[In Medias Res III]

Verderbnis

Women have to be sexy, because most men are still "instinct driven animals".

"Fair hair, clean skin, big boobs, nice butt. I'll take it!", that's what most think, not "Wow, she is so intelligent and has such a great character."

Mankind has invented the wheel more than once and discovered the fire twice, but never passed animalism.

Ok, sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's one thing I have thought about recently and it was one of the solutions.

Haha, I have to admit I* think like that when I see a woman too though.

"Oh HAY! She's purdee, not too tall, nice hair, great teeth... I wonder if she's really straight..?"

I think it's a way to find a healthy partner.

Ever notice when you start to get to know someone it doesn't matter how pretty they are if they are a dumbass?  

[Britomartis-the-Valiant]

On the subject of the veiling in the Middle East and other predominantly Muslim cultures, I read on article (for my anthropology class) called Symbolizing Roles: Behind the Veil by Elizabeth and Robert Fernea.

Just a few insights:

"Like languages or food, clothing has special meaning for the people who wear it that strangers may not understand."

"It [the veil] is a luxury poorer families can't afford, since any arduous activity, such as working in the fields, makes its use impossible. Thus it is likely that the use of a veil was envied by those who could not afford it, for it signaled a style of life that was generally admired."

"Veiling and purdah not only indicate status and wealth; they also have some religious sanction and protect women from the world outside the home. Purdah delineates private space and distinguishes between the public and privates sectors of society. . . Family life is hidden away. . . Outsiders are pointedly excluded."

I would recommend the entire article as it traces the cultural schema of veiling among the different societies that use it.  

[Eccentric Iconoclast]

I would actually disagree with you if you are saying that the hijab is never a sign of oppression. I would say that to force women to wear a headscarf is indeed such a sign. In countries where women are not allowed to choose whether they wear it or not, it is not a sign of the woman's personal relationship with their God. To be that, it would be their own choice to make.

However, when it is their choice it is in no way oppressive. Then the hijab can truly show a woman's self-respect and religious devotion. The hijab as worn by Muslim women in countries where it is not mandatory is indeed a personal thing and no more oppressive than a modern Western woman wearing a skirt.

Also, how is it in any way better for Egyptian men to see Western women as prostitutes than for Westerners to see Muslim women as oppressed?