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 Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:41 am
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:51 am
As I understand it, she is allowed to abort because it is life threatening and viable life takes precedence over potential life.
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:54 am
dancing-in-the-streets As I understand it, she is allowed to abort because it is life threatening and viable life takes precedence over potential life. See? This is why I want to be a Reform Jew. It's got a good bit of tolerance.
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:00 pm
Darkphantom Vincent Reincarnate I think the abortion should have been carried out. However, I wouldn't blame the church for its actions. In fact, I rather like Pro-Lifers who say no to abortion in such a situation. It's sort of a sign that it's about the fetus, and not about how the fetus came to be created, in my opinion. Kuh... it only proves how they don't give a damn about the life of the mother or the life of children. They only care about life while it's inside the womb after that it's only another life for them to condemn. I find it insulting that so many religious leaders don't even live in the same world that the rest of us do painting it with lies and false allegories. If there was a god he'd send those manipulative occult assholes to hell before their time. That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue.
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The Fabulous Prince Babel
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:10 pm
Do we have another potential convert in our midst?
Or are you already a Jew?
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:13 pm
The Fabulous Prince Babel Do we have another potential convert in our midst? Or are you already a Jew? Potential convert to Reform Judaism.
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The Fabulous Prince Babel
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:15 pm
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:04 pm
All Jews allow and even require abortions at certain times. It may seem strange, but a baby who puts a mother's life in danger while in the womb is considered the same as a fully formed human who plans to kill that mother. Now, that isn't to say Jews condone abortion for birth control at all. That would not conform to halacha because when you have sex you should always intend to have a child.
Converting to reform Judaism is fine, but if you believe that all other forms of Judaism aren't tolerant enough than you'll definitely have a hard time converting. It is no easy task and Rabbis of any sect aren't afraid to turn you away many times.
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:30 pm
Not much od anything orignial to add, but Reform Judaism as I know it is cool with abortion no matter what, and since this is about life and death for the girl the Torah would defend her right to have the abortion to save her own life.
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:22 pm
Lumanny Not much of anything original to add, but Reform Judaism as I know it is cool with abortion no matter what, and since this is about life and death for the girl the Torah would defend her right to have the abortion to save her own life. Abortion if mother's life is at risk - YES Abortion if mother's mental/emotional health is at risk - YES Abortion if the child will have no quality of life or will not live long - YES Abortion if existing children will suffer if another is born - YES Abortion if mother simply doesn't want a child - NO Abortion if child has very slight problem (eg. webbed feet) - NO Orthodox/Conservative/Chassidic/etc Judaism: Abortion if mother's life is at risk - NO Abortion if mother's mental/emotional health is at risk - NO Abortion if the child will have no quality of life or will not live long - NO Abortion if existing children will suffer if another is born - NO Abortion if mother simply doesn't want a child - NO Abortion if child has very slight problem (eg. webbed feet) - NO Exodus 21:22. And if a man takes up arms, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23. But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life. 24. eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Divash The Talmud records a few different sages' opinions. The earliest is that the human soul, the nefesh, enters the body forty days after conception; the latest is that it happens when the infant draws its first unassisted breath outside the womb. A baby is circumcised on the 8th day because on that day the Jewish soul, the neshamah, the thing that makes the difference between a Jew and a non-Jew, enters the body of a boy. A girl's neshamah (Jewish soul) is said to enter the body either: at 40 days after conception, the same time as the nefesh; upon drawing the first breath outside the womb, the same time as the nefesh; on the seventh day (one day earlier than a boy's); on the eighth day (the same day as the boy's); two weeks after birth; on the fifteenth day after birth (two weeks plus one day, like the boy's one week plus one day); or upon receiving her Hebrew name in synagogue, when her father goes in (she and the mother will still be home in childbed) and accepts a blessing on her behalf. There, everything I can find on abortion in Judaism. And Catholicism does these kind of things often. If only they saw outside the box.
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:31 pm
kingpinsqeezels when you have sex you should always intend to have a child. I thought we were allowed to have sex without having a kid. >_> I mean, how else is a man s'posed to have sex with his wife on shabbat if he's supposed to knock her up every time? XD On topic: As I understand it, the Church is being a stupid doody head.
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Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:51 pm
Well, I kinda said it wrong. What I mean is at one point in your marriage you should plan to have at least one boy and one girl. That's why some Jews don't care about female birth control as long as at some point you go off of it in order to get pregnant. Woohoo for schtupping on Shabbos!
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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:04 am
I'm officially staying out of this one.
I understand how Latin American Catholicism works, and how serious they are about "the god stuff" there.
So I'm staying the hell away from the conversation.
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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:08 am
kingpinsqeezels Now, that isn't to say Jews condone abortion for birth control at all. That would not conform to halacha because when you have sex you should always intend to have a child. That is not entirely accurate. Whenever having (heterosexual) sex, a Jew should keep in mind that it is possible that life will result. But the purpose of sex, in Judaism, is not to have children. Children are a sometime result, but not the intent. The intent of sex, for a Jew, is to share closeness, to give pleasure, to express love, to enjoy a foretaste of the joy of the world-to-come, and to reinforce the spiritual bond that exists between the two. The business about "every time you have sex, you intend to have a child" is a Catholic idea, not a Jewish one. Lumanny Orthodox/Conservative/Chassidic/etc Judaism: Abortion if mother's life is at risk - NO Abortion if mother's mental/emotional health is at risk - NO Abortion if the child will have no quality of life or will not live long - NO Abortion if existing children will suffer if another is born - NO Abortion if mother simply doesn't want a child - NO Abortion if child has very slight problem (eg. webbed feet) - NO Er. This is not the Orthodox stance, nor the Sephardi stance. I can't speak for the Conservative stance, but I can't possibly believe it would be more strict than the Orthodox stance. Abortion is permitted in ALL CASES up to the 40th day after conception, because the 40th day is when the conceptus changes from a mass of tissue into a mass of tissue with a soul. If a mother's physical or mental/emotional health is at serious risk, abortion is always permitted, because a life takes precedence over a potential life. If the child would not live long, abortion is not permitted; if it would have a physically painful life (not just a disability, but actual pain on a constant basis), abortion is cautiously permitted, because one should not cause pain to a child. If the child would have a very slight problem such as webbed feet, or if the mother simply doesn't want a child, abortion is not permitted -- that's what adoption is for.
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Eloquent Conversationalist
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Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:00 pm
For the record, that was Behatz's quote... ninja
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