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Lelas

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:04 pm


Without a clear-cut agreement on the subject of abortion, there is a need for compromise.

Webster defines compromise as "a settlement of differences by arbitration or by consent reached by mutual concessions."

Meaning, my dear choicers and lifers--we must give up some things that we want in order to be fair to everyone.

Our first order of business is prevention of unintentional pregnancy. I will be speaking on the United States scale, as that is the only frame of reference I have.

Prevention. We will institute inclusive sex education programs in schools that inform students of proper birth control methods and STD protection. We will also encourage abstinence. We will teach students about the workings of the human reproductive system. We will teach them that "pulling out" does not work. We will encourage the regular use of condoms. We will inform female students of all the options they have with hormonal birth control, and give all students information about local and state health clinics that can supply them with what they need.

We will form a nationwide project to inform people of birth control methods. We will run commercials, post pamphelts and flyers, send mail notices--whatever it takes to get the word out--you as an American citizen have the right to birth control. And your insurance will probably cover it.

Plan B. This should really be included under prevention, but it's special, so I'll make it separate. We will make Plan B and other "day-after" drugs available over the counter. These drugs are actually pumped-up doses of birth control pills that either A) form thick mucus around the cervix so as to prevent sperm from entering the uterus and meeting an egg, or, B) actually prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in uterus lining. To pro-lifers, this is abortion. But again, we are compromising. The earliest abortions are the lesser of two evils, right?

Informing Women of Their Rights. We will spend much more time on prevention of unintentional pregnancy. However, to be fair to women who might want abortions, we will include in our Public Service ventures information about abortion rights and procedures, and tell women how they may obtain these services.

Mifepristone. The real "abortion pill." This pill should be left to the jurisdiction of individual doctors. It should not be available over-the-counter, as it is a very invasive drug and has been known to cause death (although very rare). Women and girls who want the pill should consult their doctors.

First Trimester Abortion. In the first trimester, a developing fertilized egg is called an embryo. This very early stage of development ensures easy, relatively complication-free abortion. Pro-lifers believe that even at this very early stage, the embryo is a person. However, we are going to again ask pro-lifers to compromise. The first trimester will be the only trimester in which purely elective abortion is allowed.

Second Trimester Abortion. Second trimester abortions will be considerably rarer. Here, I am asking pro-choicers to compromise. Second trimester abortions will be legal, but only in certain situations. They will be allowed if the immediate health of the mother is in danger; if the mother might die if she goes through with the pregnancy; or if the baby has a fairly severe physical or genetic defect to the likes of mental retardation, Tay-Sachs disease, etc. Some parents just couldn't handle things like that.

Third Trimester Abortion. As it is currently, under my system, thrid-trimester abortion would be extremely rare and never for small reasons. It would be allowed if the mother's prolonged health or life was in danger, of course. It would also be allowed for severe defects in the infant, such as Harlequin baby disease (ichtyosis), especially severe hydrocephalus (another link), or late miscarriages.

----------------

Ok, I think I included everything. Please reply and include more points as you think of them.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:13 am


would abortion be taught about in sex-education

I'm afraid I don't agree on second trimester, maybe apply those terms to 3rd?

Scion_Of_Balance


Asmi-chan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:44 am


Those terms sound reasonable enough to me.

Another thing I would like to see done is changes made to the current adoption system, for the sake of the children that are born instead of aborted. I recall several people complaining about that, mostly pro-choice, but they brought up some good issues.

Also, there's the issue of parental notification. My personal view is that if the parents have to be informed if a girl under 18 gets a tooth pulled or her ears pierced, then they should be informed if their daughter is pregnant and wants an abortion. If the laws change so that a minor is allowed to do more without their parents consent, then I'd go along with not requiring girls to tell their parents if they get an abortion. More of a consistency issue if you ask me.

Might wanna put something in there about the rare instances of rape as well.

And most of all... Actually requiring people to take responsibility for their actions and think about what they're doing! What a concept... stare
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:38 am


Asmi-chan
Those terms sound reasonable enough to me.

Another thing I would like to see done is changes made to the current adoption system, for the sake of the children that are born instead of aborted. I recall several people complaining about that, mostly pro-choice, but they brought up some good issues.

Also, there's the issue of parental notification. My personal view is that if the parents have to be informed if a girl under 18 gets a tooth pulled or her ears pierced, then they should be informed if their daughter is pregnant and wants an abortion. If the laws change so that a minor is allowed to do more without their parents consent, then I'd go along with not requiring girls to tell their parents if they get an abortion. More of a consistency issue if you ask me.

Might wanna put something in there about the rare instances of rape as well.

And most of all... Actually requiring people to take responsibility for their actions and think about what they're doing! What a concept... stare

I don't know about informing the parents that their daughter is getting an abortion. Just in certain circumstances...some parents can be really brutal in situations like that. I live in canada, so we get pretty good sex ed classes. They taught procautions as well as the biology behind it.

And responsiblity is good. But abortion can be seen as taking responsibility as well. If you can't give the child a good life and aren't able to go through with the pregnance or don't want to, that seems like a mature decision to me.

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Lelas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:59 pm


Scion_Of_Balance
would abortion be taught about in sex-education
Definitely. Girls should know their rights.
Quote:
I'm afraid I don't agree on second trimester, maybe apply those terms to 3rd?
Well...I'm really trying to take a reasonable approach here. I'm trying to make as many people happy as possible. Also, I believe that while a woman has the absolute right to abortion, I also think she should take responsibility and have it early. That is why I am so adamant about informing women about their rights, so that they know they must get the abortion early. I think three months time is fair.

Asmi-chan
Another thing I would like to see done is changes made to the current adoption system, for the sake of the children that are born instead of aborted. I recall several people complaining about that, mostly pro-choice, but they brought up some good issues.
Awesome point. Yes, the adoption system needs to be reformed. And I know one way we can help the situation: allow gay couples to adopt. Gay couples would be more willing to adopt older children, and children with severe disabilities.
Quote:
Also, there's the issue of parental notification. My personal view is that if the parents have to be informed if a girl under 18 gets a tooth pulled or her ears pierced, then they should be informed if their daughter is pregnant and wants an abortion. If the laws change so that a minor is allowed to do more without their parents consent, then I'd go along with not requiring girls to tell their parents if they get an abortion. More of a consistency issue if you ask me.
I agree with Kiriel. It's not a good idea to enforce parental notification. Abortion is much different than getting your ears peirced--many parents would abuse their daughter if they knew she had gotten pregnant. Also, they would be able to force their daughter to have the child--effectively denying her the right to choose. The right to remove a living mass from your body is much, much more integral to freedom than the right to have peirced ears.
Quote:
Might wanna put something in there about the rare instances of rape as well.
Can't believe I missed that one. Perhaps we should allow that past the second trimester. I'm not sure.
Quote:
And most of all... Actually requiring people to take responsibility for their actions and think about what they're doing! What a concept... stare
Which is why elective abortions would only be allowed in the First Trimester. Also, people can only take responsibility when they have the information they need--which is why we will inform women of their birth control choices.

Whether you agree with abortion or not, it is a responsible choice.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:22 pm


Lelas


Prevention. We will institute inclusive sex education programs in schools that inform students of proper birth control methods and STD protection. We will also encourage abstinence. We will teach students about the workings of the human reproductive system. We will teach them that "pulling out" does not work. We will encourage the regular use of condoms. We will inform female students of all the options they have with hormonal birth control, and give all students information about local and state health clinics that can supply them with what they need.

We will form a nationwide project to inform people of birth control methods. We will run commercials, post pamphelts and flyers, send mail notices--whatever it takes to get the word out--you as an American citizen have the right to birth control. And your insurance will probably cover it.


You should not just inform them of the options (if we indeed compromise), but also the risks with them.

Quote:

Plan B. This should really be included under prevention, but it's special, so I'll make it separate. We will make Plan B and other "day-after" drugs available over the counter. These drugs are actually pumped-up doses of birth control pills that either A) form thick mucus around the cervix so as to prevent sperm from entering the uterus and meeting an egg, or, B) actually prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in uterus lining. To pro-lifers, this is abortion. But again, we are compromising. The earliest abortions are the lesser of two evils, right?


I still think they should be perscription, along with the pill.


Second Trimester Abortion. Second trimester abortions will be considerably rarer. Here, I am asking pro-choicers to compromise. Second trimester abortions will be legal, but only in certain situations. They will be allowed if the immediate health of the mother is in danger; if the mother might die if she goes through with the pregnancy; or if the baby has a fairly severe physical or genetic defect to the likes of mental retardation, Tay-Sachs disease, etc. Some parents just couldn't handle things like that.

You need to be more specific. Just saying immediate health problems or death risk in pregnancy isn't good enough because every pregnancy has those risks and it could imply any sort of health problem, even those that have nothing to do with pregnancy.

Pandali


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:11 pm


From what I read, I've already reached that. I get great education, day after pills without a subscription, condoms and other stuff, all is confidential, and such. Maybe it's because I live in the number 1 county IN AMERICA of teen pregnacy in 2002, but... The only thing is that I also get what is taken away right there. So, all I see is negatives. Leave my rights alone.

And people will never comprimise. There are some maniacle pro-life people, and then there are people like me. We're all just too stubborn to give in or compromise.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:00 am


Kiriel_Trovara
Asmi-chan

Another thing I would like to see done is changes made to the current adoption system, for the sake of the children that are born instead of aborted. I recall several people complaining about that, mostly pro-choice, but they brought up some good issues.

Also, there's the issue of parental notification. My personal view is that if the parents have to be informed if a girl under 18 gets a tooth pulled or her ears pierced, then they should be informed if their daughter is pregnant and wants an abortion. If the laws change so that a minor is allowed to do more without their parents consent, then I'd go along with not requiring girls to tell their parents if they get an abortion. More of a consistency issue if you ask me.

Might wanna put something in there about the rare instances of rape as well.

And most of all... Actually requiring people to take responsibility for their actions and think about what they're doing! What a concept... stare

I don't know about informing the parents that their daughter is getting an abortion. Just in certain circumstances...some parents can be really brutal in situations like that. I live in canada, so we get pretty good sex ed classes. They taught procautions as well as the biology behind it.

Maybe the girls can have the option of having a counselor or someone else they'd trust present when they tell their parents? Have some sort of Pregnancy Protection program created for situations like that?

Quote:
And responsiblity is good. But abortion can be seen as taking responsibility as well. If you can't give the child a good life and aren't able to go through with the pregnance or don't want to, that seems like a mature decision to me.

Yes, I suppose it could be, but still, I'd hope that they considered the other options out there and not just choose that one automatically. For instance, if you can't give children a good life, you could consider putting them up for adoption. If you think that would be an unethical decision considering how corrupt adoption can be, then you could see if it's possible that you could meet someone personally that would be willing to take care of the child once it's born.

And requiring people to think isn't limited to pregnant women. That's for pretty much everybody living in this insane asylum we call 'Earth.'

Asmi-chan


Scion_Of_Balance

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:08 am


okay then!

I was just concerned about time for them to decide.

parents should be notified but their consent should NOT be needed
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:56 pm


Pandali
You should not just inform them of the options (if we indeed compromise), but also the risks with them.
I figured that was a given. Hormonal birth control isn't for everybody--but you need a prescription for that, and you can't get a prescription without consulting a doctor. Condoms don't always work. Abortion can be risky (though not nearly as risky as pregnancy). That's a pretty obvious one. What, do you think I want girls to be less informed? I thought I put this point in to emphasize the need for education, my bad...

Sorry for being sarcastic, but your remark was a bit smug.
Quote:
I still think they should be perscription, along with the pill.
Why? There's no need, and it would totally defeat the purpose of the day-after pill. Those are for emergencies, and must be used within what, 72 hours? Do you want more real abortions to happen? At least the day-after pill prevents some pregnancies by keeping the sperm from the egg.
Quote:
You need to be more specific. Just saying immediate health problems or death risk in pregnancy isn't good enough because every pregnancy has those risks and it could imply any sort of health problem, even those that have nothing to do with pregnancy.
As in, "If you have this baby you will die." Or "If you have this baby you will be permanently disabled." Or "Continuing this pregnancy will have serious reprecussions for your mental health." For any reason, even if it doesn't totally have to do with the pregnancy--if the pregnancy will trigger the death or disability, it will be allowed.

Quote:
And people will never comprimise. There are some maniacle pro-life people, and then there are people like me. We're all just too stubborn to give in or compromise.
Well, I changed, so I thought I'd present my findings. 3nodding

Asmi-chan
Maybe the girls can have the option of having a counselor or someone else they'd trust present when they tell their parents? Have some sort of Pregnancy Protection program created for situations like that?
And then what happens after the counselor leaves? She gets beaten or thrown out to the street.

Now, a pregnancy counselor might not be such a bad idea, as long as it was optional. The girl could talk the counselor to see what would be the best option for the girl herself.
Quote:
Yes, I suppose it could be, but still, I'd hope that they considered the other options out there and not just choose that one automatically. For instance, if you can't give children a good life, you could consider putting them up for adoption. If you think that would be an unethical decision considering how corrupt adoption can be, then you could see if it's possible that you could meet someone personally that would be willing to take care of the child once it's born.
Of course they should consider other options, because abortion isn't for every woman. But she should not be guilted into choosing other things, only shown the choices.
Quote:
And requiring people to think isn't limited to pregnant women. That's for pretty much everybody living in this insane asylum we call 'Earth.'
Who said any different? blaugh

Quote:
Scion_Of_Balance
okay then!
I was just concerned about time for them to decide.
parents should be notified but their consent should NOT be needed
Yeah, time is of the essence, isn't it?

And I really don't think they should be notified. Maybe after a thorough background check on the parents...and seeing how the girl describes her parents...I don't know. As long as her parents aren't psychos, I could maybe see her being required to tell them--but of course, no permission should be required.

----

On a side note, I found out yesterday that my grandmother had an abortion when she was 38. I was kinda surprised--because you don't really think about it in relation to your relatives, at least I didn't. So now, I will be even more passionate in defending the women who have abortions--you put them down, you're putting down my grandmommy. heart

Lelas


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:10 pm


Lelas
On a side note, I found out yesterday that my grandmother had an abortion when she was 38. I was kinda surprised--because you don't really think about it in relation to your relatives, at least I didn't. So now, I will be even more passionate in defending the women who have abortions--you put them down, you're putting down my grandmommy. heart


Ha, ha! I out rank you in that, my mommy had an abortion! Twice! And still had three children, and is living quite comfertable with one child moved out, one 'adopted' child, and two children still in high-school. I can garrentee if my mommy didn't have those abortions, I would not be here. She woulda aborted me. domokun And, the value of our lives would be tremendously poorer. 3nodding Ha! Beat that! heart
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:24 pm


Mistress DragonFlame
Ha, ha! I out rank you in that, my mommy had an abortion! Twice! And still had three children, and is living quite comfertable with one child moved out, one 'adopted' child, and two children still in high-school. I can garrentee if my mommy didn't have those abortions, I would not be here. She woulda aborted me. domokun And, the value of our lives would be tremendously poorer. 3nodding Ha! Beat that! heart
3nodding Elective abortion, and why it should be legal. That could be the name of your story.

Lelas


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:56 pm


I kind of find it sad that the you guys could have been aborted... I don't know why... crying
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 2:09 pm


FreeArsenal
I kind of find it sad that the you guys could have been aborted... I don't know why... crying
Because you're a pro-lifer, and you're using one of the most hackneyed arguments your side has.

If we had been aborted, that would have been that.

It would have been the same thing if my mom and dad hadn't gotten it on that night.

What's your point?

Lelas


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:38 pm


FreeArsenal
I kind of find it sad that the you guys could have been aborted... I don't know why... crying


I feel nothing. Really, you will never know me personally. And I will never know you. If I'd been aborted, I would have reincarnated later on and been born at a later time, but I wasn't so the what-ifs don't matter.
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