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The Fabulous Prince Babel

PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:40 am


So if you all haven't figured out I'm a Jewish convert.

My family is Catholic and I still live with them.
Before every meal we sit down and pray to Jesus and giving thanks for our meal.
I've always said the prayer since I was little and now I'm Jewish.

I asked my mother if it'd be okay if she said the prayer now instead of me.
She knows that I'm Jewish now and supports me but she flat out said, "No."
She told me it's because we're a Christian family and we pray together.

So I'm still saying the prayer and groan inside when I have to say, "Christ, the Lord, amen."
My mom told me if I could find a prayer that could be used both by Jews and by Christians to give thanks for meals then we could use that but I don't know where to look.
Could any of you help me out please??
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:53 am


For those who don't know... the Catholic Prayer is as follows

Bless us, O Lord, and these Thy gifts, which we are about to receive from Thy bounty, through Christ our Lord. Amen.

The Jewish versions of Grace are as follows.

Blessed are You, our G-d, Sovereign of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the earth.

or

Blessed are You, our G-d, Sovereign of the Universe, through whose word everything comes into being.

LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:02 pm


Just use one of them. I doubt your mother will mind if you ask her.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:16 am


I'll tell you one thing, your parents might support your conversion but it will take them ages to get used to it. My dad is constantly challenging my views on ham and when to feed the animals. My mom got on to me when I said I only celebrate Christmas with them because it's important to the family. Eventually once they see how truly serious you are about the whole thing, they'll probably give up. But as long as your under their roof I would suggest respecting their wishes. : )

Interestingly enough, when I was a kid I always prayed before meals but never included Jesus. In fact I never remember thinking much about Jesus at all.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:20 pm


If you have not yet completed conversion under a rabbi's sponsorship, it is still acceptable for you to eat non-kosher foods, which is good news for you, because you're still obligated to eat at your family's non-kosher table. A Jew would not be permitted to eat their food, or eat anything off of their dishes. It's one of the many reasons we discourage converts: eating together is a very social thing, and refusing to eat at someone's table can cause hurt feelings because they'll perceive it as an insult, rather than as simply a response to something very similar to a (spiritual) allergy.

However, while you're still involved in the process of conversion, there is a way for you to utter blessings for your family. It is most proper for a non-Jew, praying in a Jewish way, to utter the words of the Psalmist, Psalm 145, especially verses 14-18:

14. The LORD upholds all that falls, and raises up all those that are bowed down.
15. The eyes of all wait for You, and you give them their food in due season.
16. You open Your hand and satisfy every living thing, with favor.
17. The Lord is righteous in all His ways, and compassionate in all His works.
18. The Lord is near to all them that call upon Him -- to all that call upon Him in truth.


Or it might also be well to read from Psalm 104, verses 24-28:

24. How manifold are Your works, Lord! In wisdom You have made them all; the earth is full of Your creatures.
25. Yonder sea, great and wide, therein are creeping things innumerable, living creatures both small and great.
26. There go the ships; there is leviathan, whom You have formed to sport therein.
27. All of them wait for You, that You may give them their food in due season.
28. You give it to them, they gather it. You open your hand; they are satisfied with good.


(Especially moving if you live within sight of an ocean or large lake.)

Note: After you complete your conversion, because it is forbidden for you to eat non-kosher foods (or even kosher foods, from non-kosher dishes), the rules change a bit. If you're ever required to eat non-kosher food after you're fully Jewish by Jewish law, it is actually forbidden to make a blessing over it at all. Doing something you've been told not to do, then saying thanks for it, is like tipping your hat after assaulting someone. It's well beyond rude.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:25 pm


Thank you everyone for the help and information.

Divash, I had never heard of the law saying that I can't eat Kosher food off of non-Kosher plates.
I guess I'll have to get my own soon.

Concerning the table...
I can't eat kosher food with a plate that has never touched non-Kosher food on a table where non-Kosher food has been served?
Just trying to get things straight.

Is this a universal Jewish custom or strictly Orthodox/Conservative/what-have-you?

The Fabulous Prince Babel


LordNeuf
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:42 pm


Alastor Cromwell
Thank you everyone for the help and information.

Divash, I had never heard of the law saying that I can't eat Kosher food off of non-Kosher plates.
I guess I'll have to get my own soon.

Concerning the table...
I can't eat kosher food with a plate that has never touched non-Kosher food on a table where non-Kosher food has been served?
Just trying to get things straight.

Is this a universal Jewish custom or strictly Orthodox/Conservative/what-have-you?


Ok, under strict orthodox rules, if you put kosher food on a non kosher plate it becomes non kosher. If you put a kosher steak on a plate that once had kosher cheese on it, the plate becomes non kosher and so does the steak.

Under strict orthodox rules EVERY good Jewish home should have no less than EIGHTEEN sets of dishes. Let me count it out for ya

You need the milk plates
You need the meat plates
You need plates for things neither milk or meat.

3 for everyday
3 for sabbath
3 for holidays
3 for high holidays
3 for passover
and 3 for "other occasions" I.E. secular holidays, weddings, funerals, birthdays and so on.

six sets of three different dishes and 6x3=18

However, this is the standard of the orthodoxy, not conservatives or reformed.

One reason that Divash will never eat anything from my kitchen and the reason why Jesus was a carpenter. Because Jews of old REALLY needed the cabinet space for 18 sets of dishes, and flatware you need special flatware as well.

Mind you the rules of Kosher according to the Orthodoxy differ greatly than mine. Mine being the soloist, non sectarian, neo-interpretive jew.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:50 am


Alastor:
I've mentioned this in other threads, but it bears repeating. All Jews used to just be Jews, no divisions. Ashkenazi Jews, specifically in Germany, wanted to fit in with their neighbors, so some of them split off into Reform, which did its best to fit in by designing their synagogues to look like churches and their services to look more like church service, and by dressing increasingly like the non-Jews around them. They dispensed, gradually, with the laws of kashrut, Shabbat, and Family Purity. In response to this, other Ashkenazim began calling themselves Orthodox, and kept strictly to the "old" ways, to Torah observance, even though they knew it meant not fitting in with the larger German population. Fast forward about 50 years to when some Reform Jews were in the US. Some of those rebelled against the Reform platform of non-halachic Judaism -- that is, Judaism that was cultural, ethnic, spiritual, but did not consider itself bound to the Torah's laws (the official Reform stance is that "halachah gets a vote, not a veto"), and they split off from Reform to become the Conservative movement.

All this splitting and faction-forming happened in the Ashkenazi world, not in the Sephardi and Mizrachi world. I'm Mizrachi. I'm not Orthodox because I'm not Ashkenazi. I'm just someone who chooses to observe the Law. When I say something like "This is the law, this is what the Torah says," I'm not saying "This is the way my congregation does it." What I'm saying is, "This is what the Law of the Torah and Talmud proclaim." There are Americans who don't obey American law, and there are Jews who don't obey Jewish law, sure. But that doesn't mean that the law is different for some Americans, any more than calling oneself Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or Nosepicker changes the Law of Torah.

Also, Neuf is being facetious, and very humorously so. I enjoyed your post, Neuf. What an observant household NEEDS is only one set of glass plates, provided they don't have chips, cracks, or damage that would render them porous or able to retain flavors or qualities of the foods that are on them. Glass, at least among Sephardim and Mizrachim, is considered "always kosher." I have a glass casserole dish which I can use, clean well, and use again without worrying what it last held, or has EVER held, unlike with a clay, stoneware, or metal casserole dish. I can then serve whatever I've cooked on my new glass dishes (Corelle, actually) without worrying what the dishes last held, and have a glass of whatever I want to drink as long as I'm not serving milk in my drinking glass and meat on my plate. The only difficulty is with my cooking and eating utensils. I do need a set of milk, meat, and parve cooking utensils and also some meat, milk, and parve eating utensils, but these items are much cheaper to buy and take up much less storage space than having lots of dishes. I've put each of my three sets into a flatware divider, and they all fit into the same drawer of my china hutch. It can be complicated, sure, but it doesn't have to be, once you know what you're doing. You also need three sets of cookware (pot, pan, skillet), unless of course you were clever enough to buy yourself come Visions glass stovetop cookware. (Oh, and you'll probably want a Pyrex measuring cup and three different-looking measuring spoons, as well. But that's just little details.)

Ashkenazim can't do the thing with the glass bakeware and dishes, because to them, Corelle bakeware and dinnerware aren't kasherable (able to be made newly kosher if they are made non-kosher somehow).

Once again, I strongly encourage you to speak with a rabbi -- Orthodox or Sephardi/Mizrachi, to be absolutely sure that your conversion will be accepted by all Jews instead of only by one community of Jews, a problem often faced by Conservative and Reform converts. Tell him that you want to take classes on Judaism and are considering conversion; tell him you can't keep ideally to the kosher dietary laws while you're still living at home, but will be saving up for cookware and dinnerware to use when you're able to move out on your own. And most of all, ask him to set you up with a hands-on tutor to show you how to live by the laws of kashrut and Shabbat. You won't be able to do it perfectly at first, but you'll be getting a good head start on what you'll need to know, and have, to make it easier to begin once you're on your own.

And for now, don't worry about keeping kosher at home, although avoiding pork and shellfish would be a good start if you can do it without creating tension/offense among your family. Remember, the law to "honor your father and your mother" comes during the book of Exodus, while the laws of kosher eating don't come around until Leviticus. When one is forced to choose between two laws that are in conflict because of temporary circumstances, one decides in favor of the law which comes first. Right now, honor your parents by obeying them (though don't pray in the name of Jesus or any saints). Later you'll live to keep more laws. (Also, until your conversion is complete, the laws of kashrut don't even actually apply to you, so you can eat whatever you want.)

Divash
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:16 am


Further to the end of Divash's post:
I'm an (increasingly) Progressive religious Ashkenazi Jew in a secular Jewish household. I have to make sacrifices to keep my somewhat anti-Orthodox father happy.
SO: I prioritise. I realise, as you possibly should, that the 5th commandment: "Honour your mother and your father" overrules the kosher laws, or anything else for that matter, except for the other 9 commandments.
So just listen to your mother and father and when you leave, do whatever you like!
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:28 am


Divash
Also, Neuf is being facetious, and very humorously so.


That's my purpose of being, with my tounge superglued to my cheek.

LordNeuf
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The Fabulous Prince Babel

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:26 pm


Thanks everyone.
My problem is that there is only one synagogue in my area and it's reform.
There aren't any Orthodox Jews in my area.
What do I do?

(I'm in the Bible Belt and drowning in Conservative Christianity.
I only know of one Jew in my area and she's a teacher at my school.)

And I'm avoiding pork and shellfish, by the way.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:49 pm


Alastor Cromwell
Thanks everyone.
My problem is that there is only one synagogue in my area and it's reform.
There aren't any Orthodox Jews in my area.
What do I do?


Go to the reformed one and get the general idea of sabbath and the holidays and their meanings.

The prayers are the same in the reformed as in the orthodoxy... You may just find an "Orange on the Seder Plate" in a reformed temple than an orthodoxy one.

LordNeuf
Crew


The Fabulous Prince Babel

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:58 pm


I've got a decent idea of the Sabbath and holidays from a couple Jewish 101 books I've picked up and read.
Maybe I should talk to my parents first and then email the Rabbi before actually visiting.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:19 pm


Is there anywhere I can get tons more information on Sephardi customs? Basically more stuff on how it differs from Ashkenazi Judaism. Lol, I kinda hate to say it but using glass sounds WAY simpler than what I had in mind. I'm such a tight wad.

kingpinsqeezels


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:21 am


Alastor:
For now, read some good websites. I highly recommend these for starters:

http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm
http://www.torah.org
http://www.aish.com
http://www.chabad.org

Also, consider applying to colleges which are in cities which boast a higher Jewish population: Atlanta, New Orleans, Miami, Chicago, New York, Boston/Brookline, Toronto, Los Angeles, San Francisco. Look for universities with a Hillel House on campus, and contact them to ask them if they veer more towards Liberal/Progressive Judaism or more towards Orthodox/Traditional Judaism.

kingpinsqeezels:
Your best bet is to find a Sephardi or Mizrachi synagogue. Wikipedia has some information that's good, but to my mind, not nearly enough. It should be able to get you started, though.

Some small but important differences I've noticed:

1. The thing about glass, above.

2. Ashkenazim will not eat rice, corn, beans, peas, or anything else that one can make into a flour that, in turn, can be made into something resembling bread, during Passover. Other Jews will avoid only the Five Grains: oat, wheat, barley, spelt, and rye.

3. For Ashkenazim, 'bread' is anything that involves any flour made from the Five Grains and which is used as bread: rolls, pizza crust, tortillas, and so on, as long as a certain percentage of the content is flour. For eating their bread (or "bread"), they must ritually wash their hands, make the blessing for bread, eat, and then re-wash and make a fairly long set of blessings after eating. For non-Ashkenazi Jews such as Mizrachim or Sephardim (I'll call them all Sephardim for simplicity, as do most people, most of the time), "bread" can contain ONLY flour, water, yeast, and salt. One may brush oil, egg wash, or sprinkle spices on the dough once it has been formed and is rising, but not mix any extras into the dough. All other additions to the dough -- sugar, honey, egg, spices of any kind, baking powder, any grains other than the Five -- turns the result into "cake." Cake (that is defined as cake according to the tradition of Sephardi Jews, and not necessarily birthday-fare) doesn't require ritual hand-washing before, takes the blessing over "miscellaneous sustenance," and requires only a much shorter blessing after eating.

4. When lighting Shabbat or Yom Tov candles, an Ashkenazi woman will first light, then recite the blessings. This is because, for her, Shabbat begins with the blessing, and fire may not be ignited on Shabbat. A Sephardi woman, on the other hand, will recite the blessing over lighting the candles, then light the candles. This is because for Sephardim, Shabbat begins AFTER the lights are lit, so one should follow the custom of reciting the blessing, then taking the action, just as one does with every blessing over performing an action.

5. Ashkenazi women leave the chuppah (wedding canopy) in a veil, enter yichud (the room set aside for her to finally, for the first time, be alone with her husband), and emerge with their hair covered. They'll cover it always in the company of men, and often at all times when they're not showering or sleeping, for the rest of their married lives. However, if they are divorced or widowed, they will uncover their hair as a sign that they are henceforth available to remarry. It's simply a signal of availability or unavailability. Sephardi women, on the other hand, cover their hair lifelong once they've been married, even if divorced or widowed. This is because once a woman has been married and has known physical intimacy, she is more cognizant of her own sexuality, and is thought to be more sexually appealing than before. She covers her hair so that she will not enflame men's passions (other than her own husband, who is permitted to her). It's not that women are "responsible" for what men do, but rather, ...Do not 'select' the following text unless you're able to read about somewhat personal matters without becoming uncomfortable... that women who find themselves enflamed are permitted to relieve their own tension, whereas a man is (according to many, but not all, authorities) not permitted to do so; and we as women do not wish to place men in the uncomfortable position of having to choose between transgressing and having to live with the tension until it fades, which can often take quite some time. ...Personal matter ends here.

Oh, and if anyone's not clear on what Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrachi, and all the other communities of Jews are, here's a pretty great map. There's some overlap, of course, since Jews are famous for migrating here, getting thrown out of there, and so on, but this is the basic idea.
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