Welcome to Gaia! ::

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/11/baptizing.dead.jews.ap/index.html

Some of you may have seen my thread in M&R about this. I've been less than tactful in my arguing about it there. I don't feel that I should have to restrain any animosity I harbor towards the LDS Church when this is going on. Why should I tolerate them and their beliefs when they clearly have no desire to tolerate us and ours?

Discuss:
Your reaction to this news.
Hoes does this impact your opinion of Mormons?
What, if anything, should we do about this?

How are they being considerate and tolerant towards our religion when they enact rituals that invoke idolatrous beings over the sacred memory of our most revered dead in history? This is neither tolerant nor considerate, it is a statement by their church that they know better, and therefore the rights and wishes of our dead are ignorable.

I think that's a difficult thing to take a position. On the one hand, words cannot describe how speechless I am at hearing of such an atrocity. Religion and beliefs, no matter what, should not cause harm to another person (physically or not). If Mormonism dictates that, then I lost what little respect I had for the religion anyway. But, that's not saying I don't respect Mormons in general- a few of my friends are, and they're genuinely good people. I just think their views are completely misguided.

I'll write more later when I have time, but it's not right to hate all Mormons because of this.

Between this, and Prop 8 bullshit, I've lost any and all respect I had for the Mormon Church.

In all honesty I am truly upset with this practice. When my Ex Girlfriend told me of this I was angered. I cannot stand that they think that they have the RIGHT to baptize those who are dead, those who would be mortified if they came from the grave and saw what they are doing. I mark this up their with a lot of mormon practices that I do not like, this being the top of course.

I've spent some time interacting with Mormons in high school and also in the workplace. I'd like to dispel some myths and correct some perceptions that are apparently pretty widespread here.

1. Mormons (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, LDS for short) do not baptize the dead by digging them up, nor by going to the gravesites and sprinkling or pouring water. They do it by going and having themselves baptized in place of the dead. They're called proxy baptisms. You go to a Mormon temple, are handed a slip of paper with the dead person's name on it, and you're baptized in their place.

2. They do it because, so they say, their leaders are divinely inspired with the names of people who -- after death, in the grand celestial waiting room -- had the chance to hear and accept the Mormon gospel doctrines.

3. What actually happens is that faithful Mormons get the names of dead people and submit them to the temples. Someone prays and says, "Heavenly Father, we ask that you inspire us as to whether these individuals have truly accepted your gospel." And lo and behold, all the names are miraculously confirmed by the Holy Spirit and are submitted for proxy baptism.

4. This procedure has no spiritual efficacy whatsoever. It has no effect whatsoever on the dead. The only effect on those who "stand in" for the dead by participating in proxy baptism is that they get wet. However, the living do suffer because of this. Mormons suffer because they have to pay to enter the temple (one-tenth of their PRE-TAX income for at least one year to get a Temple Recommend, an admittance card).

5. The relatives of the baptism victims also suffer because they'll eventually hear that Great-grandma Dora or Uncle Lewis, who were devout Jews/Muslims/Catholics/Wiccans/atheists their whole life, have suddenly become Mormons according to the Mormon genealogical records. So whenever they or anyone else researches their family, they will discover "Dora Green, Mormon" instead of "Dora Green, Jewish." This CAN become so serious that a rabbinical court will, in the absence of other information, be obligated to say "It says here that Dora Green is Mormon, not Jewish. I'm sorry, but her descendants aren't Jewish." This can create serious problems for Dora Green's descendants, if those records aren't corrected, and if a rabbinical court ever consults those records.

6. Yes, the LDS stated policy is to receive permission for proxy baptism from the target's living relatives. However, they never actually bother to consult with living relatives unless those relatives are converts to Mormonism, and are the ones that have submitted the names for proxy baptism in the first place. A son can submit the name of his deceased father, even over his mother's objections, for instance: the Mormon convert's word is taken over the non-Mormon family members.

7. Yes, Joseph Smith was imprisoned for destroying a printing press that was printing facts that were detrimental to early Mormonism's reputation. He was handed a gun by one of his followers, and shot at least one of his jailers himself, before being shot himself in his escape attempt.

8. I saved this one for number 8, in "honor" of Proposition 8. I think it's cute, funny, and endearing -- you know, in that "not at all" way -- that the LDS leadership and membership are so intent on defining marriage as being between ONE man and ONE woman, and robbing the rights of others, when their own church was kicked out of one place after another for the crime of polygamy.

I have no respect for Mormonism's doctrines and practices. However, I do have respect for individuals within any religion that act with integrity and kindness to others. Therefore, I ask that we not turn the Jewish Gaians Guild into the Mormon-Bashing Guild. It's not cool. Let's go back to being "yay Jews!" instead of "boo Mormons!"

Divash had it really close....but slanted kinda funny.
The "ten percent pre-tax income" is referring to the Tithing thing. You aren't paying to enter the temple, you are paying because you think it is a commandment of G-d. You go to the temple after following a whole lot more commandments than that. Mormons feel they are blessed by paying tithing.


Mormons have no power over records other than their own. You look up Great aunt Gertrude in any records not held by the Mormons, they are unchanged. Even those-I'm not entirely sure they change them. They put in a footnote saying the work was done...
Do rabbinical counsels consult Mormon records? Why would they do that? Wouldn't they have to allow for the obvious, untrustworthy slant?


The leadership doesn't "pray about" names-every person who has ever lived is supposed to get the chance. Anyone can submit names-A guy at work asked me once if I had a name I wanted baptised by proxy. They collect names from everyone, whether the person in Mormon or not.


Joseph Smith's escape attempt had an awful lot to do with the 100 some odd person mob (dressed as Indians!) trying to kill him. He shot lots of people-he fired 12 shots. I've never heard it confirmed that he killed anyone 'cause *as far as I know* no one has come forward and said "he killed my brother!" because that mob was...illegal. My husband's great-grandfather would have loved to have something like that to hold up though...Oh, it would have made that man's day. If he could have screamed "escape attempt" Phinneus Ewing Kirkpatrick would have done cartwheels. Would have killed every Mormon in the room with the law on his side. If he wanted to escape, he wouldn't have turned himself in.
Entertainingly, the reason "Grandpa Phinneus" was chasing the Mormons around was 'cause the were going to swing the slave vote by voting as a block.

Which they still do. And it pisses me off to no end.

The Mormons will pay for this, the book series known as Twilight, and their contributions in the Prop. 8 deal.

Mormonism makes me angst almost as much as I angst about Scientology.