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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:09 pm
So I decided to put up Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways. Here you go, I don't know any online article so I'm just gonna type it out and put it here.
Argument from Motion
The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our sense, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except if it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing movies inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus, that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e., that it should move itself. Therefore whatever is in motion must be put in motion by the first moverl as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.
Cause and Effect
The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, wether the intermediate cause be several, or one only. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore, it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.
Contingent Being
The third way is taken from possibility (non-being) and necessity (being), and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence -- which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity cause by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore, we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.
Gradation of Things
The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter as it resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest, and consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in the genus; such as fire, which is the maximum of heat is the cause of all hot things. Therefore, there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness and every other perfection; and this we call God.
Governance of the World
The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore, some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
Now discuss what was said, agree or disagree, do whatever you want.
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Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:34 am
Goodness the old English is making me braindead! gonk
I guess the only way I can think of to attack this is by questioning the semantics.... The most problematic of which is the final assumption that the argument proves the existence of God without explaining exactly what God is. To say that the Five Ways explain what God is doesn't work either because of circular logic. I could replace the word "God" with some other religion-related jargon and the arguments of Aquinas would probably still stand.
Then, there's the assumption that the whole Cause/Effect thing is supposed to be linear as opposed to circular, branching off, or some other weird shape that I cannot imagine. Only in the case of a linear model would Aquinas' 2nd Way stand, and he hasn't proven why it must be linear or why other possibilities do not exist. And even then, I could also question the entire assumption that the Cause/Effect dichotomy even exists. We can say we PERCEIVE Cause/Effect because we perceive time. But what exactly is time and how does it correlate to Cause/Effect?
3rd Way, I don't know. The language is a huge barrier for my understanding of what the heck he's on about....
4th Way almost sounds like Plato's Theory of Forms or something though.
Okay... I'm officially braindead in this thread now.
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Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:13 pm
Well, there was one way I stated how the first way is wrong. To be moved, you need a push, or a motion. And motion is caused by a mover, so then how is "God" put into motion at first, cause everything must have a start, and something can't be created from nothing. So if "God" was created from nothing, then all material logic is gone. So "God" must have a mover, and since there has to be a mover for "God" then that makes this "God" a regular being.
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:47 am
Sleepless Kasaki Well, there was one way I stated how the first way is wrong. To be moved, you need a push, or a motion. And motion is caused by a mover, so then how is "God" put into motion at first, cause everything must have a start, and something can't be created from nothing. So if "God" was created from nothing, then all material logic is gone. So "God" must have a mover, and since there has to be a mover for "God" then that makes this "God" a regular being. lol. But if you're using that argument, you're pretty much DEFINING that one attribute of God must be the first to put things in motion. And because even that "first motion" must have a preceding motion, God is not all-powerful. I'd have to question that definition. Secondly, is the assumption you slipped in there that material logic must work here. I'll admit that I don't even know if it does truly work or not, but I have to question it anyway.
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:13 am
Sleepless Kasaki Well, there was one way I stated how the first way is wrong. To be moved, you need a push, or a motion. And motion is caused by a mover, so then how is "God" put into motion at first, cause everything must have a start, and something can't be created from nothing. So if "God" was created from nothing, then all material logic is gone. So "God" must have a mover, and since there has to be a mover for "God" then that makes this "God" a regular being. Unless I've misunderstood you... If God had to have a "mover," than that mover would have to have a mover, and so would that one, and so on and so forth. It can't work that way, because then there would be no beginning, but an endless heritage of movers moving future movers. Mover is an odd term... Anyway, God is (supposed to be) all powerful and eternal. A being who is all powerful would have no beginning, having existed forever. But actually, there is no forever, because God, being the creator of time, is not under its governance, but encompasses all of it.
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