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 Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:47 pm
Cause it's about darn stinkin time there was one. There are many different phoenix/firebird legends, typically divided into the Western (Greek and Egyptian), Eastern (Persia, China and Japan), and Russian. These, at least, are the ones I know about, an d curiously they don't entirely agree--any of them. If you know of any other phoenix legends or have questions reguarding any of these, please feel free to discribe or ask--someone is sure to answer. A few suggested topics: ~The orriginal legend (which one came first, how was it likely spread, what exactly did the orrigin entail, etc.) ~As a sub topic: What exactly is the lifespan supposed to be, anyway? ~Is a phoenix biologically possible--any of the listed versions? (Could it have at one time actually existed) ~Is there a backstory to the idea that if a phoenix and dragon were to get too close, they'd explode? (Something I heard around school, reguarding the picture below) ~~And a topic that came up in my mind: There appears to be somewhat vague similarities between the Chinese Phoenix and, oddly enough, Quetzalcoatl, who may possibly also be known as Kukulcan, with, due to geological/historical reasons, may help to draw a line of connection between the two. Is it possible that they are linked?
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:22 pm
Here's a piece from Wikipedia....Appearance and Abilities A phoenix is a mythical bird with a tail of beautiful gold and red plumage (or purple and blue, by some sources [1]). It has a 600-800 year life-cycle, and near the end the phoenix builds itself a nest of cinnamon twigs that it then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix or phoenix egg arises, reborn anew to live again. The new phoenix is destined to live as long as its old self. In some stories, the new phoenix embalms the ashes of its old self in an egg made of myrrh and deposits it in the Egyptian city of Heliopolis (sun city in Greek). The bird was also said to regenerate when hurt or wounded by a foe, thus being almost immortal and invincible — it is also said that it can heal a person with a tear from its eyes and make them temporarily immune to death; a symbol of fire and divinity.
As to making them physically possible..........
Let's think about dragons and how they're able to breathe fire. I'll have to find the site with the explanation again about how they would have the ability to do such things. There are some biological explanations behind the abilities of dragons, so we can look at the same kind of material for the phoenix.
Assuming it's a bird of say, of the peacock family...
White Peacock
Blue/Green Peacock
Now imagine it in the colours of brilliant red, orange and yellow....
Then think of the concept of "water off a duck's back". Ducks are waterproof, and water literally does run off their backs. What about a bird that has feathers with a coating that will burn but not damage the feathers.
Firebird/Phoenix
You can see how it resembles a peacock.
When oil is spilt on water and is ignited, the oil burns but the water is not affected because the fire has no hold over it. Let's look into that side of it and see if we can come up with some logic for that or something similar perhaps.
Then there's the question of "how" would the phoenix ignite itself?
If it can, then a scientific explanation will be a pain in the arse to figure out. Magic of course can definitely explain it. We have supernatural occurrences happening all the while in our world.
Another concept might be that when it flies in the sky, it's brightened by the sun and appears as if it's burning perhaps?
We can go into detail on all of this of course; I just posted this to get us started really. ^_^'
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:10 pm
My answers:
* I have no idea of the origin of the Phoenix to be honest.
* Lifespan? No clue whatsoever!
* I am glad I don't have to think about this one cuz Mel already answered it rather well.
* As for the last one: "Is there a backstory to the idea that if a phoenix and dragon were to get too close, they'd explode?. I'd have to say that this is the first I hear of anything like this so I just don't know what to say frankly.
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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:55 am
Just because I might have answered a few of the questions, the thread still needs to continue.
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Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 pm
I know the legend of the Phoenix dates back to Ancient Egyptian times. It has connections with Ra/Re.
The lifespan? I think it may differ with the culture, but otherwise, I have no idea.
A bird as such could have actually existed, but science never has definite answers which is why we speculate on matters like it.
Never heard anything like that.
It could well be the Chinese phoenix and Quetzalcoatl are very closely related since both cultures also had similar dragon designs as well (the ones that looked more feline than oriental dragon).
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:00 am
Well here's some information about the Chinese Phoenix, known as Fenghuang. The description of it's components are........bizarre and in no way possible because it's basically the avian version of the chimera - which would then take us into crossbreeds and then alchemy.
And here's some information about Quetzalcoatl. The problem with this one is that it's the Aztec Sky God, and is depicted as a feathered, flying serpent.
Neither of these two seem to fit the true appearance of our traditional phoenix as far as I can see.
In the information about the Fenghuang, however, it mentions Golden Pheasants in its modern description. In-fact, I have two Chinese golden pheasants in the back garden. They have a nice big pen and are separated from the chickens.
This is a male Golden Pheasant. He looks exactly like the one we have.
We called him Joseph because he has a coat of many colours. ^_^'
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Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:16 pm
Indeed, the components of the Fenghuang are bizzare--I think the imagry is just for comparison, though (that or one heck of genetic splicing experiments)---but the key thing that I caught on the list was that it has the neck of a serpent.
The Olmec people of Ancient Meso-America are often thought to have been of Chinese decent--particularly the stone Olmec head sculptures, which are scattered all over Mexico.
There is some speculation that the Olmec peoples overlapped (if only slightly) with other meso-american civilizations, thus some ideas or figures may very easily have been carried over, eventually to the Aztecs, who worshiped Quetzalcoatl, who is, as DM says, was the God of the Sky--but also of the Earth. (The Quetzal bird was considred lord of the sky, the serpent, lord of the earth. The being who is both--the feathered serpent)
It is also theorized, particularly by the members of the LDS faith, that Quetazlcoatl is in fact Jesus Christ.
The reserecting phoenix is often also seen as a type of Christ.
But that's a whole 'nother enchilada......or bowl of curry...ah, curry. ^_^
The golden phesant idea fits--all colors of flame are present. Tis a beautiful bird....I'm still all about the gyrfalcon, though....man, if I could get my hands on a licence to have one....and then actually get into falconry! Sugoi, Sugoi~!
Eh...there's magic, and then there's faith and the miracles of God. There are differences.
I like the oil/water off a duck's back idea....the phoenix would have to drink a lot of water, though, for it to be that present in it's feathers and ward off the oil fire.
As to the source of ignition, I havn't a clue.....flint/steel teeth? Kidding, kidding.
And as to life cycle...I've heard everything from 500 to 1,000 years...I may have even heard 10,000 once, but that would have been a LONG time ago. I'm leaning toward the 1,000 myself---it seems to be slightly more prominent.
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:06 am
Hey! The Quetzal bird is actually Guatemala's national symbol. Didn't you know? So you better not mess with it. He-he mrgreen
Seriously, I've heard a few things about the Quetzalcoatl but I haven't heard anything about it being related in any way to the phoenix. Weird, wouldn't you say?
I have heard about the phoenix in games mostly. I suppose the phoenix is a cool animal that can be a part of any fantasy story like, Harry Potter for example. However, before HP, I never heard about the Phoenix's tears having healing properties. I did know that its feathers were good for reviving downed characters. If you want to know something funny, I once asked a friend of mine about the item called "Phoenix Down" and here's what was said:
- Hey, how come it's not called "Phoenix Up" if it brings a character back on his/her feet?
- That's cuz the "down" is a bunch of feathers.
Wasn't that just funny? At that point, I hadn't heard much of the term "down" being a bunch of feathers and it's why I never even considered it. Oh brother... mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:05 pm
I've known about "down" for a long long time now Hypno. So, the notion doesn't surprise me.
Anyway, even the miracles of God would have to have some kind of substance to them. Without that, such things are only apparitions.
Even if the Phoenix is a spiritual bird and not actually corporeal, there is still an essence there. What the materials would be are of course a mystery.
But! What IS spiritual material? The popular belief is something called ectoplasm. Not sure what to think there because that topic is much more in-depth than we give it credit for. To discuss that side of things, head to the Catacombs and start posting in the thread entitled "the Soul".
There are numerous possibilities.
If the Phoenix is of God, however, and associated with Christ in different religions, that would make sense in a way if it's the "resurrecting" one.
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:50 pm
Yeah, I bet you have my dear Mel but, I sure wasn't aware till a while ago. mrgreen
I think you are on to something with that. Not only do I agree with what you said about spiritual material but about the Phoenix being associated with God. However, I'm not so sure about the whole ectoplasm thing. Maybe it's cuz I'm very used to hearing the word in such concepts as "Ghostbusters" or "Castlevania". But yeah, I bet there are lots of possibilities here...
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Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 12:33 pm
Ectoplasm is also in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. I'm not sure about it either, but everything has to be made of something, even if we don't know what certain materials are yet because they probably don't exist on our plane of existence.
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Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:53 am
Really? That's cool! Too bad I don't have an x-box360 and that game.
You make a good point! I'm sure there are a lot of things that don't exist in either our planet, or our plane of existence. Just because a tree falls in the forest and there's nobody to hear it, it doesn't mean it didn't make a sound, right? I think both are pretty similar in the way that just cuz we have no knowledge of something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or at least that's my POV. 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:42 am
Wasn't there a story about them raising from ashes?
Being born again and that a single tear drop can heal wounds and such?
I would say that they could live for generations at any one time, but they can die and when it happens then one is reborn in it's place within the ashes of it's predassor.
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Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:56 am
That has been mentioned on the thread already Mandy, but that particular hasn't been discussed in-depth yet.
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:40 pm
Yes, rising from ashes is what makes a phoenix what it is. Otherwise it's NOT a phoenix. Am I right or what?
But you know, whenever I heard that a phoenix would rise from the ashes, I always thought it was the same one. I mean, why would it be a new one like, a son or daughter for example? Maybe we could talk about this cuz I'm not sure if everyone here sees this in the same way or what. neutral
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