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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:41 pm
I found this on Wikipedia and before anyone starts screaming that it's not a relevant source-which it isn't always-this one just addresses WHY Cleris fans believe in Cleris while why Cloti fans believe in Cloti.
Final Fantasy VII/Romantic Arguments/Serious version From Final Fantasy Wiki
The "love triangle" between Cloud, Aeris, and Tifa is probably the second largest debate about Final Fantasy VII, and, like the Aeris resurrection theory, is still argued to this very day. Throughout disk one the player must make decisions about who he likes more - Aeris or Tifa. This results in the "date" scene at the Gold Saucer; however, you may also "date" Barret or Yuffie by making Cloud friendlier to one or the other.
Despite the fact that it is up to the player to decide who he loves many people debate over it. They have names for each couple. Cloud & Aeris are called either Cloris/Clorith or Cleris/Clerith while Cloud & Tifa are called Cloti. Many fanlisting websites for those two couples have sprung up; however, a lot of "flaming" websites have sprung up as well. Square Enix has been very keen not to be direct about who the canon couple is because it would alienate a lot of fans.
Reasons People Believe In Cleris/Clerith
1. Cloud was clearly upset by Aeris' death. 2. He killed Sephiroth to avenge Aeris. 3. Aeris was the first person Cloud started being warm to. 4. In all of Yoshitaka Amano's artwork, Cloud is only paired up with Aeris. 5. In "Advent Children", he wants forgiveness from Aeris for being too slow to prevent her death. 6. Aeris is the easiest date to get. You must alienate Aeris to get Tifa. 7. Cait Sith foretells that Aeris and Cloud are a perfect match. 8. Though Aeris sees a resemblance between Cloud and Zack, she says, "But you're different." 9. During "Advent Children's" end credits, a love song plays. Cloud and Aeris are the only characters shown. 10. At the end of the game, Cloud is shown extending his hand to Aeris. 11. Cloud becomes Aeris' bodyguard in exchange for one date. 12. Cloud has a spiritual connection with Aeris. 13. Cloud and Aeris are opposites in personality, like Squall and Rinoa, but Aeris can make him smile and laugh and is very flirty
with him like Rinoa is with Squall.
1. When Cloud is impaled by Sephiroth and is taunted by his question "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." He immediately sees Aeris, Zack, and lastly Tifa's images. Aeris's image is seen 3 times, while Zack and Tifa's are only seen once. 2. Although Aeris is dead, she still comes to Cloud and tries to get him to forgive himself. It is only through her that Cloud stops feeling guilty. Aeris is the only person that Cloud can truly smile at. 3. Cloud acutally trys on makeup,a dress,and a wig for Aeris.
After Advent Children came out, it just inflamed the entire debate all over again, because to Cleris fans, Cloud seems to abandon Tifa and his home because of guilt over Aeris's death, and because of his geostigma. Additionally, Cloud and Aeris seem to have a more functional relationship than Cloud and Tifa, because although Cloud and Tifa are seen together a lot, they don't seem to understand each other as well as Cloud and Aeris. Also significant is the argument made by these fans that Tifa can't make Cloud happy because he never smiles at her, yet he smiles longingly after Aeris' spirit. In the game, Aeris even makes Cloud laugh.
Reasons People Believe in Cloti
1. Cloud had a crush on Tifa years before he met Aeris. 2. Before Cloud left Nibelheim, he promised Tifa that he would always be there to protect her when she was in danger. 3. Cloud left Nibelheim to be able to protect Tifa, and demonstrate that he was worthy of her. 4. Tifa was the one who helped Cloud regain his true memories. 5. Tifa stayed and helped Cloud when he was hospitalized in Mideel. 6. The doctor in Mideel gave them his blessing. 7. Tifa and Cloud are shown together often in "Advent Children". 8. In the short story "On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa" Cloud smiles and says he believes he can start a new life unlike the last time he tried, because Tifa is there with him. 9. Some believe that Aeris was killed simply to make Tifa Cloud's love. 10. Tifa is considered to be Cloud's emotional support in "Advent Children." 11. There is a scene in "Advent Children" where Cloud and Tifa are both unconscious lying in a bed of flowers, the music and atmosphere depict it as a love scene. 12. In Last Order, Cloud and Tifa share a (retconned) moment where Tifa acknowledges Cloud's fulfillment of their promise while Cloud smiles at her. 13. At the end of the game, Tifa and Cloud's themes mix together. 14. Tifa's only storyline seems to revolve around her relationship with Cloud, while Aeris has a story that veers from Cloud. 15. Aeris is dead. 16. Cloud, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene are shown to be a "family" as indicated by the photo at the beginning of "Advent Children." 17. Reminiscence, the review of Final Fantasy VII, plus short story, indicates Cloud returning to Tifa's bar for a party, while it also shows many of what are considered the 'Cloti' scenes of the game. 18. In the Advent Children Ultimania, the creator states that Tifa is "...like a mother (母のような), sweetheart and fighter..." using the word koibito(恋人)to describe sweetheart, a word exclusively used as lover. Many Cloti fans believe this is evidence that at some point, Cloud and Tifa were lovers. 19. Zack was Aeris' first love. 20. Cloud's broken mind molds memories of Zack's stories into his own memory, thus making it quite probable that Aeris simply thought Cloud was cute, and Cloud had a confused notion that she was his girlfriend (or should be), thus making the relationship an "accident", whereas Tifa is the one to pull Cloud OUT of the mess.
There is a scene between Cloud and Tifa at the end of disc 2 where the party splits up before the final showdown with Sephiroth, to take time out and reflect on each party member's own reasons for fighting. Tifa and Cloud, not having any remaining family or material ties to "go home" to, are left moping alone together under an anchored Highwind for a night. They talk for a while and after a time Tifa remarks to Cloud that "Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking." The screen fades to black, and they wake up the next morning leaning against each other.
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 8:37 pm
1. Cloud was clearly upset by Aeris' death.
And Zack's.
2. He killed Sephiroth to avenge Aeris.
No. He killed Sephiroth to avenge His mother, Zack, Aerith, and to protect Tifa.
3. Aeris was the first person Cloud started being warm to.
This is not true. He begins being more sociable after his first in game conversation with Tifa.
4. In all of Yoshitaka Amano's artwork, Cloud is only paired up with Aeris.
This is not true. He is also paired up with Red XIII, and Aerith is herself paired up with Sephiroth in these pieces. Amano is concept art, not final product. I love the man's art, but it isn't technically part of the canon.
5. In "Advent Children", he wants forgiveness from Aeris for being too slow to prevent her death.
Technically true, but ignores his other motivations.
6. Aeris is the easiest date to get. You must alienate Aeris to get Tifa.
Which tells us nothing. Even if you get the Aerith date, he must be forcibly removed from his room by her, and he does not seem particularly interested in the gondola conversation. Moreso than Yuffie's, but less so than Tifa's.
7. Cait Sith foretells that Aeris and Cloud are a perfect match.
Cait Sith's most defining characteristic are his unreliable fortunes.
8. Though Aeris sees a resemblance between Cloud and Zack, she says, "But you're different."
If one counts Maiden, apparently she doesn't. This is also irrelevant.
9. During "Advent Children's" end credits, a love song plays. Cloud and Aeris are the only characters shown.
A song specifically chosen because Nomura liked it, during a sequence that was made just to see how well they could mix CG and real footage. Nevermind that Cloud simply drives past Aerith, and later stops to give Tifa a call.
10. At the end of the game, Cloud is shown extending his hand to Aeris.
Actually, as far as he's aware, it's just 'a hand', which then resolves itself into Tifa's. If you go by Maiden, he reaches for it instinctually, as Aerith punts Cloud back to his body.
11. Cloud becomes Aeris' bodyguard in exchange for one date.
Cloud never actually agrees to the price, and simply plays it off when it is again brought up.
12. Cloud has a spiritual connection with Aeris.
Like he's the only one. MARLENE has a spiritual connection with Aerith.
13. Cloud and Aeris are opposites in personality, like Squall and Rinoa, but Aeris can make him smile and laugh and is very flirty with him like Rinoa is with Squall.
Tifa makes Cloud smile, and makes him blush, and his promise to her is etched into his memory.
1. When Cloud is impaled by Sephiroth and is taunted by his question "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." He immediately sees Aeris, Zack, and lastly Tifa's images. Aeris's image is seen 3 times, while Zack and Tifa's are only seen once.
This is probably the best evidence they have. However, it relies on all of their other proofs being valid to even mean anything.
2. Although Aeris is dead, she still comes to Cloud and tries to get him to forgive himself. It is only through her that Cloud stops feeling guilty. Aeris is the only person that Cloud can truly smile at.
Pure lies.
3. Cloud acutally trys on makeup,a dress,and a wig for Aeris.
In order to rescue Tifa.
After Advent Children came out, it just inflamed the entire debate all over again, because to Cleris fans, Cloud seems to abandon Tifa and his home because of guilt over Aeris's death, and because of his geostigma. Additionally, Cloud and Aeris seem to have a more functional relationship than Cloud and Tifa, because although Cloud and Tifa are seen together a lot, they don't seem to understand each other as well as Cloud and Aeris. Also significant is the argument made by these fans that Tifa can't make Cloud happy because he never smiles at her, yet he smiles longingly after Aeris' spirit. In the game, Aeris even makes Cloud laugh.
Wow. That's utterly fail. Cloud's only smile in AC is for Tifa, he left to protect his family from peril, not because he didn't love them, but because he loved them so much, and because they made him feel so happy, a happiness he did not feel he deserved, that he feared they would be taken from them. Really, the C/A shippers are just making stuff up, and all of the official materials tear down the positions the C/A arguments need to even get off the ground.
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:17 pm
"Love is not consolation. It is Light."
I hope you don't mind me replying in the same format that you did, Ryu. x] It makes it easier to sort out, eh heh. I agree with everything you said by the way.
*1. Cloud was clearly upset by Aeris' death.
-Every one was clearly upset by Aeris' death. Not to mention that Cloud acted ten times more dramatically towards Zacks death, now in a clearer view thanks to CC. A lot of Cleris fans like to say, "Cloud only cried during Aeris' death!" But if we look at CC, we see that Cloud's eyes are tearing up terribly when he has to walk away from Zacks dead body. Not only that, but there was a SONG dedicated to the two, flashbacks, a dramatic scream, "promises", the cliche rain to sun ending. Does this make Cloud and Zack a couple? Based on Cleris logic, indeed.
*2. He killed Sephiroth to avenge Aeris.
-As did every one else. They were all fighting in the name of something--- Cloud for Aeris, his hometown, the pain Sephiroth caused him in general. Most Cleris fans seem to make Cloud selfish--- make it seem like Aeris is the only person he cares about. Cloud has a soft spot for his friends and family, not just one person.
*3. Aeris was the first person Cloud started being warm to.
-Nope. Technically, Cloud and Tifa were the first ones Cloud was warm to. As for the beginning of FFVII, I'd say he was fairly warm to Tifa, before he met Aeris.
*4. In all of Yoshitaka Amano's artwork, Cloud is only paired up with Aeris.
-Like Ryu said, Cloud is shown A LOT with RedXIII, for some reason. I think there are an equal amount of those two together, as there are of Cloud and Aeris. And, also as Ryu stated, Aeris is shown with Sephiroth as well. Though the art is "official", it is concept. Amano may support Cleris, but that doesn't mean it's the games official pair.
*5. In "Advent Children", he wants forgiveness from Aeris for being too slow to prevent her death.
-Of course he wants forgiveness for that. I would too, if I were in his shoes. Anyone who was just close friends with someone, would want forgiveness from that person, if they were unable to help. This proves no grounds of "love", though it COULD be. However, in AC, this is not the ONLY main issue Cloud is dealing with. He is trying to maintain his family's happiness, and have his feelings of guilt for not being able to protect *everyone* to be lifted completely. Again, some seem to think Cloud only cares for Aeris.
*6. Aeris is the easiest date to get. You must alienate Aeris to get Tifa.
-We've proved this one wrong time and time again. xD And you don't have to ALIENATE Aeris, to get Tifa. I've talked to people neutral of the pairings, that have gotten Tifa just playing the game regularily. It's not impossible to get Tifa. :/
*7. Cait Sith foretells that Aeris and Cloud are a perfect match.
-So, if some Cleris fans out there want official? The game pamphlet states that Caith Siths readings are usually incorrect.
*8. Though Aeris sees a resemblance between Cloud and Zack, she says, "But you're different."
-OMG we are seeing how Aeris feels. One-sided?
*9. During "Advent Children's" end credits, a love song plays. Cloud and Aeris are the only characters shown.
-Haha, I hate when they use this as proof, but then deny that "when Tifa's theme was playing at the end of the game when Cloud was with her, it was just showing Tifas feelings".
*10. At the end of the game, Cloud is shown extending his hand to Aeris.
-Aeris theme plays, but just before he can reach her, her theme stops rather abruptly, as Tifa's instantly starts to play when she and Cloud are seen together. Some Cleris fans have stated that Tifa's theme is playing, because Tifa loves Cloud, and it only shows her feelings for him. Then, if this is so, when Aeris' theme was playing when she is seen with Cloud, their logic states that this only shows Aeris' feelings and not Cloud's. Somebodys being rather contradicting.
*11. Cloud becomes Aeris' bodyguard in exchange for one date.
-Cloud does it in the exchange of nothing. She's an innocent girl, and he agrees to protect her from the big bad Turks. Sounds like a good deed *and the influence of Zacks memories cough cough*, to me. Cloud NEVER agrees to Aeris' date, even if you get her for the date scene, he still never agrees to go on it with her. Each date scene shows the person forcing Cloud to go with them.
*12. Cloud has a spiritual connection with Aeris.
-And how does he not have one with Tifa? He was able to hear her calling out to him in the lifestream, and was able to regain his memories due to her help. He's constantly thanking her for the way she treats him.
And like Ryu said--- a lot more people have a spiritual connection with Aeris.
*13. Cloud and Aeris are opposites in personality, like Squall and Rinoa, but Aeris can make him smile and laugh and is very flirty
with him like Rinoa is with Squall.
-Wow, this means absolutely nothing. Look at couples in, oh let's say, FFVI, FFX, and FFXII. Many of the pairings have similar traits. 1.LockeXCeles 2.YunaXTidus 3.FranXBalthier <--Canon 4.PeneloXVaan <-- Canon, sadly 5.AsheXRasler Oh, and one from FFVIII. SelphieXIrvine.
These couples prove that opposites attract is not ALWAYS the instance, and it's just foolish to think so. It is also foolish to compare one pairing, to another pairing in FF, without looking at ALL of the couples as a whole. And have you noticed that a lot of Cleris fans think that just because someone dies in the relationship, the creators are immediately relating it to Cleris? For instance, Ashe losing Rasler. Rasler appears to her in a "spiritual" form, and she keeps seeing visions of him. So, immediately this is Cleris. So, Vaan seeing visions of his brother must also be in relation to Cleris as well. rofl -sigh- Some people... are really not using much of their common sense.
*1. When Cloud is impaled by Sephiroth and is taunted by his question "Tell me what you cherish most. Give me the pleasure of taking it away." He immediately sees Aeris, Zack, and lastly Tifa's images. Aeris's image is seen 3 times, while Zack and Tifa's are only seen once.
-I don't see how the order or number of times you see someones image, means that you're ranking who you care about most. :/ I mean, it could be implying something, but as Ryu said again, based on all the other evidence, it just does not compute.
*2. Although Aeris is dead, she still comes to Cloud and tries to get him to forgive himself. It is only through her that Cloud stops feeling guilty. Aeris is the only person that Cloud can truly smile at.
-Good for Aeris. I'm sure if Zack had her powers, he'd come and see Cloud too. -It is not only through Aeris that he stops feeling guilty, but through Tifa (I believe moreso) and the appearence of Zack as well. -Not true. Cloud also smiles at Tifa (many times), Zack, and the children. Who's to say his smiles for them aren't "true"?
*3. Cloud acutally trys on makeup,a dress,and a wig for Aeris.
-And I quote, Aeris: "You want to save Tifa, don't you?"
*After Advent Children came out, it just inflamed the entire debate all over again, because to Cleris fans, Cloud seems to abandon Tifa and his home because of guilt over Aeris's death, and because of his geostigma.
-Ultimania says that Cloud was afraid of losing the happiness he had with Tifa and the children. (His family, as they refer to it)
*Additionally, Cloud and Aeris seem to have a more functional relationship than Cloud and Tifa, because although Cloud and Tifa are seen together a lot, they don't seem to understand each other as well as Cloud and Aeris.
-One of the reasons why I like Cloti, is because the two understand each other more than they realize.
*Also significant is the argument made by these fans that Tifa can't make Cloud happy because he never smiles at her, yet he smiles longingly after Aeris' spirit. In the game, Aeris even makes Cloud laugh.
-He does smile at her, and even if he didn't, that has nothing to do with how "happy" a person makes another person feel on the inside, or otherwise. I liked a guy once, and I never smiled at him because I didn't want him to know my feelings. But on the inside, I was thinking that he made me feel like the most special girl on earth. Just giving an example. X_X -"Longingly"--- Is that so? rofl I thought he looked more stoned, than anything. NOT TO MENTION-- ZACKS PRESCENCE.(SP) -"omg remember that one time i laffed because you made the funnie joke about joining soldier?111!1 lol so can0n!!"
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