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 Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:16 am
I think it can be safe to say that most everyone in this guild has participated in the act of PvP more than a couple times, especially BGs, so I think it can also be safe to say we all know what a total ********' retard is.
So that being said, I would like to touch up on the issue of class Nerfing and balancing.
One thing you have to understand before you even consider the thought of Nerfing a class or calling it "OP" is that balancing classes in a MMORPG such as WoW that contains both PvP and PvE elements is pretty much a impossible task. Though at the same time, Blizzard does a damn good job at attempting to do so, as they are constantly fixing and balancing even the smallest details of each overall class. Failure to initially realize this will instantly make your opinion on Nerfing and balancing much less intelligent.
As you engage in PvP, no matter how skilled in PvP you think you are, it is wise to consider that being defeated in any PvP situation could be the result of many other factors other than the skills of a certain class. Maybe the odds weren't in your favor (you versus three players), maybe their gear is substantially better than yours (your Season 1 epics vs their Season 3 epics), maybe they had more buffs or consumables (your self buffs versus a raid buffed player with health stones and/or health pots), or maybe you just lack the skills needed to effectively participate in PvP (you suck). Whatever the reason, it never really comes down to a class being better than another.
One great example of a class being criticized for being "OP" is Warlocks. This pretty much makes Warlocks the number one killer of retards in WoW. I don't mean to insult anyone by saying that, but it is more or less true. Every class has just as much potential in PvP and PvE than any other class in the game. Nerfing Warlock abilities because retards keep getting killed in PvP would more than likely severely damage their effectiveness in PvE, as well as PvP.
Now that being said, there are constructive opinions and criticism in terms of balancing character classes that don't solely consider PvP potential. You just have to consider many issues and details before claiming a valid opinion. For example, lets say you are sick and tired of Mage's chasing you around and constantly using "Ice Lance" to hack away at your remaining health until you die. Try to think of a balance of that skill that would work around its ability while maintaining its effectiveness, like shortening the range. Ice Lance is most effective when someone or something is under the effect of Frost Nova, and it's not like Mage's are running a full 30 yards before they start casting Ice Lance. Then you have to consider the consequences the change would make, Mage's are mostly a range dependent casting class, and lowering the range on certain abilities such as Ice Lance might weaken the skills potential in PvP and PvE. Basically, making a valid opinion on class balancing and Nerfing is not nearly as simple as it seems, as the smallest changes can have huge effects in the long run.
All in all, I hope my long a** rambling can maybe shed a little light one this subject for those of you who have concerns regarding class nerfing and balancing. All the same, I hope those of you who bothered to read the whole thing can enlighten me with some of your own opinions on the matter.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:17 pm
I agree. Playing a warlock, I am targeted 95% of the time first in my 5v5 group and on the battlefield because i am "op"
You dont see a lot of nerfing now adays though, just mostly buffing of a class. Example: Viper Sting being buffed? Why? What could possibly come from that except me having no mana in a couple seconds.
Playing a warlock, i dont think i am op because i know what my weaknesses are. Each dot is about 200 mana, so locks can only cast so many before they are oom and completely helpless sitting ducks. I have cloth armor. MS=lower health stones and health regen from anything at all. No damage from my weapon. My wand only does a good 250 per hit. My only way of escape (fear) has a diminishing return & a cast time which i can be killed casting easily if im low on health, etc etc.
I could go one for hours why I think hunters are unfare, and they are legit reasons too. Mail, autoshot hitting for 1200, aim shots for 4500, feign death, pet, viper sting, arcane shot and its buff remover, traps, BM wrath thing whatever, potential huge damage crits from weapon, the list goes on an on.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:11 pm
That was the MOST well thought out, and written... whatever it is called I have ever read. Dude you nailed it on the head, I agree 100% on that. Just because I can't kill warlocks( or shadow priests for that matter, I dunno what it is about them...), doesn't mean thay're OP.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:13 pm
balancing skills for both pvp and pve at the same time aren't more difficult than just balancing for pvp. balance around pvp, then build boss fights around the skills that are there in pvp...
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:39 pm
chrono911 I agree. Playing a warlock, I am targeted 95% of the time first in my 5v5 group and on the battlefield because i am "op"
You dont see a lot of nerfing now adays though, just mostly buffing of a class. Example: Viper Sting being buffed? Why? What could possibly come from that except me having no mana in a couple seconds.
Playing a warlock, i dont think i am op because i know what my weaknesses are. Each dot is about 200 mana, so locks can only cast so many before they are oom and completely helpless sitting ducks. I have cloth armor. MS=lower health stones and health regen from anything at all. No damage from my weapon. My wand only does a good 250 per hit. My only way of escape (fear) has a diminishing return & a cast time which i can be killed casting easily if im low on health, etc etc.
I could go one for hours why I think hunters are unfare, and they are legit reasons too. Mail, autoshot hitting for 1200, aim shots for 4500, feign death, pet, viper sting, arcane shot and its buff remover, traps, BM wrath thing whatever, potential huge damage crits from weapon, the list goes on an on. So your class loses against hunters, and suddenly every single thing that a hunter can do is is overpowered? Are you always going to be this ******** retarded? You've been bitching about hunters for months. neutral Sure, your class isn't the best at taking hunters down, but I don't think that many hunters really autoshot for 1200 LOLALLTHETIME. Warlocks get stupidly good shadowbolt crits sometimes, s**t just happens. Maybe you should work on improving yourself and getting good at fighting hunters, rather than just bitching about something you can't change and being a little f*****t.
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Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:17 pm
chrono911 I agree. Playing a warlock, I am targeted 95% of the time first in my 5v5 group and on the battlefield because i am "op"
You dont see a lot of nerfing now adays though, just mostly buffing of a class. Example: Viper Sting being buffed? Why? What could possibly come from that except me having no mana in a couple seconds.
Playing a warlock, i dont think i am op because i know what my weaknesses are. Each dot is about 200 mana, so locks can only cast so many before they are oom and completely helpless sitting ducks. I have cloth armor. MS=lower health stones and health regen from anything at all. No damage from my weapon. My wand only does a good 250 per hit. My only way of escape (fear) has a diminishing return & a cast time which i can be killed casting easily if im low on health, etc etc.
I could go one for hours why I think hunters are unfare, and they are legit reasons too. Mail, autoshot hitting for 1200, aim shots for 4500, feign death, pet, viper sting, arcane shot and its buff remover, traps, BM wrath thing whatever, potential huge damage crits from weapon, the list goes on an on. Hunters definitely have their advantages, but I don't think they are "unfair" in any aspect. I would say hunters in general have a harder time hitting the top of the damage meters in a PvE setting (mainly raids) compared to other classes. Their potential in PvP is balanced by their ability to hit heavily and constantly as a ranged class, and keep themselves at a distance from their opponents, while lacking the ability to maintain themselves in terms of mana efficiency and retaining damage, not to mention their melee abilities are about as useful as a single Wing Clip. Being a Warlock myself, I can also say that BM Hunters are definitely not my favorite class spec to go up against in PvP, since my only real alternative to fearing is DoT and run, and its not particularly easy to run away from a BM Hunter pet. Though even then I still think it's definitely a viable tree final talent ability, I can't call it unfair when it only effects one aspect of the Warlock's PvP potential. I know there is more to it than what I tried to explain, but I'm trying to cut my posts in summarizations rather than gigantic rambling posts.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:12 am
Quote: Hunters definitely have their advantages, but I don't think they are "unfair" in any aspect. I would say hunters in general have a harder time hitting the top of the damage meters in a PvE setting (mainly raids) compared to other classes. Their potential in PvP is balanced by their ability to hit heavily and constantly as a ranged class, and keep themselves at a distance from their opponents, while lacking the ability to maintain themselves in terms of mana efficiency and retaining damage, not to mention their melee abilities are about as useful as a single Wing Clip. Being a Warlock myself, I can also say that BM Hunters are definitely not my favorite class spec to go up against in PvP, since my only real alternative to fearing is DoT and run, and its not particularly easy to run away from a BM Hunter pet. Though even then I still think it's definitely a viable tree final talent ability, I can't call it unfair when it only effects one aspect of the Warlock's PvP potential. I know there is more to it than what I tried to explain, but I'm trying to cut my posts in summarizations rather than gigantic rambling posts. The buff to hunters was needed to a point. Its just some of the things need to be toned down. IE Mortal Strike, Dispeling Arcane shot, These are good ideas but the problem is that any hunter can get Aim shot no matter how deep you really NEED to travel into another tree. The dispel for Arcane shot needs to be with improved because of its ablity to deal damage and dispel something is quite annoying and a hunter can strip you of all your buffs in about 20 seconds. Blizzards problem is in some cases they dont nerf things. They change how they work and the fact is sometimes you just have to drop the hammer and accept that some members of the community are going to get angry.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:19 am
I started typing up a response, but realized it all sounded a lot like this. This is squarely directed at you, Zerotica and Chrono911. Please take the time to read it before saying how it was too long, but the ideas contained inside were stupid anyway.
http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:18 am
Kiloran balancing skills for both pvp and pve at the same time aren't more difficult than just balancing for pvp. balance around pvp, then build boss fights around the skills that are there in pvp... that would take all the fun out of PvE, and would make the game like any other multiplayer shooter that has Capture the Flag, Domination, and Assault variants
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:42 am
I'm a shadowpriest, and I dont claim to be good at pvp, but I dont suck either.
My gear isnt all that great and I attribute my lack of resil/stam/spelldmg/int to losing a lot of the time in BGs also my arena team makeup is retarded, but we're all friends IRL, so whatever.
I have no clue how to beat a hunter. Silence them first chance I get, bubble myself, run up and fear and then try and do as much dmg as is possible within the next 10 seconds (assuming of course that fear is allowed to run its full duration, which never happens in pvp), and thats pretty much my strategy. IF the hunter is focusing his attacks on me, I'm going to die, and as far as I know theres no way around that for me. Its probably just that I'm squishy and silly and it'd probably be easier to take out a hunter with anything but a clothie.
Doesnt mean they're OP. They have no way to protect themselves in pvp, everyone blitzes past the pet. They have no heals, they have one singular buff (and a teensy one it is), and usually very mediocre health.
Warlocks who arent demo (the felguard alone can mop me up pretty quick) are little more than an annoyance to me. I can dispel half their dots, their pets dont hit for much/have no health (lol@voidy in pvp) and they're easily silenced. No problems here.
Again, its all about class.
I see no reason to QQ about whether a class is overpowered or underpowered, as with everything there are pros and cons/strengths & weaknesses.
And people who use potions in BGs are ******** retarded. If you had to use a pot, you lost, get over it.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:08 am
Mr. Graves I started typing up a response, but realized it all sounded a lot like this. This is squarely directed at you, Zerotica and Chrono911. Please take the time to read it before saying how it was too long, but the ideas contained inside were stupid anyway. http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/ After reading that, I can think of only one response ... LIVE TO WIN! TIL' YOU DIE! TIL' THE LIGHT DIES IN YOUR EYES!
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:11 am
Kiloran balancing skills for both pvp and pve at the same time aren't more difficult than just balancing for pvp. balance around pvp, then build boss fights around the skills that are there in pvp... If I wanted to play a game like that, I would be playing Guild Wars.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:56 am
Karnokoto
I'm a shadowpriest, and I dont claim to be good at pvp, but I dont suck either.
My gear isnt all that great and I attribute my lack of resil/stam/spelldmg/int to losing a lot of the time in BGs also my arena team makeup is retarded, but we're all friends IRL, so whatever.
I have no clue how to beat a hunter. Silence them first chance I get, bubble myself, run up and fear and then try and do as much dmg as is possible within the next 10 seconds (assuming of course that fear is allowed to run its full duration, which never happens in pvp), and thats pretty much my strategy. IF the hunter is focusing his attacks on me, I'm going to die, and as far as I know theres no way around that for me. Its probably just that I'm squishy and silly and it'd probably be easier to take out a hunter with anything but a clothie.
Doesnt mean they're OP. They have no way to protect themselves in pvp, everyone blitzes past the pet. They have no heals, they have one singular buff (and a teensy one it is), and usually very mediocre health.
Warlocks who arent demo (the felguard alone can mop me up pretty quick) are little more than an annoyance to me. I can dispel half their dots, their pets dont hit for much/have no health (lol@voidy in pvp) and they're easily silenced. No problems here.
Again, its all about class.
I see no reason to QQ about whether a class is overpowered or underpowered, as with everything there are pros and cons/strengths & weaknesses.
And people who use potions in BGs are ******** retarded. If you had to use a pot, you lost, get over it.I would say Shadow spec for Priest's is more or less an effective spec for PvE, as Nihilum's best DPS class is a Shadow Priest, but it's definitely a viable spec for PvP as well. Discipline however is an insanely nice arena spec, as well as a good spec to annoy the hell out of anyone in PvP in general. As a warlock, I don't usually find it too difficult to kill a shadow priest, but I can't count the times I screamed "WTF!" after I got taken downtown by a Discipline Priest. Yes Priest's in general are squishy, but they have no problem ********' s**t up when they want to. I find Hunters (even BM spec'd) to be less threatening to me compared to Mace Rogues and Resto Druids are. Locks don't really have anything to protect them from an endless stun assault, and Resto Druids can completely negate all my DoTs I put on them with their HoTs, so we can't really do much against them even with fear and life drain effects. Though I don't consider any of this as an "OP" problem at all. There is a fine line between having an advantage and being "OP" in PvP, though most people tend to disclose an advantage as being "OP".
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:57 am
The Mule Of Max chrono911 I agree. Playing a warlock, I am targeted 95% of the time first in my 5v5 group and on the battlefield because i am "op"
You dont see a lot of nerfing now adays though, just mostly buffing of a class. Example: Viper Sting being buffed? Why? What could possibly come from that except me having no mana in a couple seconds.
Playing a warlock, i dont think i am op because i know what my weaknesses are. Each dot is about 200 mana, so locks can only cast so many before they are oom and completely helpless sitting ducks. I have cloth armor. MS=lower health stones and health regen from anything at all. No damage from my weapon. My wand only does a good 250 per hit. My only way of escape (fear) has a diminishing return & a cast time which i can be killed casting easily if im low on health, etc etc.
I could go one for hours why I think hunters are unfare, and they are legit reasons too. Mail, autoshot hitting for 1200, aim shots for 4500, feign death, pet, viper sting, arcane shot and its buff remover, traps, BM wrath thing whatever, potential huge damage crits from weapon, the list goes on an on. So your class loses against hunters, and suddenly every single thing that a hunter can do is is overpowered? Are you always going to be this ******** retarded? You've been bitching about hunters for months. neutral Sure, your class isn't the best at taking hunters down, but I don't think that many hunters really autoshot for 1200 LOLALLTHETIME. Warlocks get stupidly good shadowbolt crits sometimes, s**t just happens. Maybe you should work on improving yourself and getting good at fighting hunters, rather than just bitching about something you can't change and being a little f*****t. Lawls.
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:17 am
The Mule Of Max So your class loses against hunters, and suddenly every single thing that a hunter can do is is overpowered? Are you always going to be this ******** retarded? You've been bitching about hunters for months. neutral Sure, your class isn't the best at taking hunters down, but I don't think that many hunters really autoshot for 1200 LOLALLTHETIME. Warlocks get stupidly good shadowbolt crits sometimes, s**t just happens. Maybe you should work on improving yourself and getting good at fighting hunters, rather than just bitching about something you can't change and being a little f*****t.
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Reply
