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We all hate it, that's for certain. Who would want an art, and sometimes a tradition, a tough skillset to attain and only done so through hard work, endurance and determination, to be commerialized and used for moneymaking schemes? The nightmare of all martial artists, of any that have true passion for the art and for the fight...

But I digress.

Commerialization and marketing to a certain degree is unavoidable. Without those tools, it is hard to recruit students when there are so many different styles, so many schools out there. And then, who to continue the tradition of the dojo? Everything is money these days. Without paying students, how can you upkeep the cost of the place and of the equipment?

I've seen it gone both ways. As I mentioned in another place, my own dojo was in danger of being in financial trouble. Too tough on the new students, too strict, too rough, those were some of the complaints. Students did not feel that they were making progress without some set tests (traditionally, black belts were handed out when the sensei and instructors felt you were ready). They lost the place. And then of course, there is over commercialization, schools that this guild warns about.

So what then would resemble a balance? I'm curious to hear your thoughts, as I have an inkling of a fear that someday, the marketing of the dojo may one day be left to me. (The sempai most likely to receive the dojo some day is all about the fight, the art, and is not the most open and friendly person in the world.)

I'm very black and white on the whole subject of commercialism in the martial arts.

In my opinion dojos should be strict and tough and instill discipline. If students complains about the above then that would be tough s**t. They obviously don't want the training enough and want to take short cuts. If a student was seen to be struggling and genuinely wanted to succeed then extra tution would be given where possible.

Although I can understand the predicament of an instructor who's only source of income is martial arts instruction but there are better ways of making income than rushing students through their gradings. I've got no problem with grading systems where students truely have to earn their grades but throwing out black belts where traditional arts are concerned in any time less than 5 years, in my opinion is wrong (unless the training is exceptionally tough and the student work their nuts off). And of course then there's the issue of kids getting their black belts at young ages which I think is disgusting. I feel that a black belt shouldn't be given out to any one under the age of 18.

I feel that if an instructor has cross trained in many arts and is offering training that most dojos don't have such as punching, kicking, grappling, weapons, sparring, energy cultivation, etc then they shouldn't have problems attracting students if they advertise correctly.

I guess i'm lucky coming from a very uncommercialised background where my first real instructor only advertised via word of mouth and we had very small classes of 10 people maximum. The training was very tough and at points we only had 2 or 3 students for stretches of time (or just me sometimes) because the training could be very severe. I earnt my black belt after 7 years of s**t but I really wanted the training.

Believe it or not I never wanted my black belt as I didn't believe it held any meaning but I was teaching more and more so I had to be seen to be holding a higher grade in front the class and members of the public who would walk in the gym.

I guess most people today wouldn't want to go through that sort training which is a reason why some schools are watered down. I just feel it's getting to a point where most martial arts are seen as a joke to the public where fighting systems are concerned because of the wide spread of semi-contact and the fact that full contact is seen less in most schools becuase it's seen to be too rough and most people don't want the bruises.

I have mixed opinions on this topic. My dojo does a considerable amount of advertising, but unlike bahvanta's dojo, we make it clear that our style is ninjutsu. Commercializing definitely decreases the quality of a dojo, but at the same time it exposes a lot of people to martial arts. Not many people are lucky enough to have connections, or the skills to be invited to a private dojo. And often, the commercialized ones open a new path for many of us, which we probably wouldn't have discovered if there was no advertising.

That's something I think I can agree with, though I'm still dreading that I'll be the one ending up doing it because I am the one with the most business sense. There are others, but they just started out. I suppose that is why I'm asking because I really don't want to be seen as the "bad guy"

This is a very good topic and yea, basically here's my view upon the whole matter.

As far as advertising and marketing your buisness and whatnot, if you're a teacher and that is your only source of income, you can do whatever you want to advertise and spread word of your school and try to increase the income. But of course that does not mean that you should sell yourself out. There's a McDojo down the street from us, about 4 blocks away and I've always said that it was commercialized beyond all salvation. They have items such as pens, pencils, bookbags, hats and whatnot for sell with their name on it. Which I find completely unecessary. That is when I think that it has gone too far.

My teacher had only came to America three years ago, and when he started out, he didn't even have enough money to support himself, let alone try and start a school. But he didn't become a sellout. He became a gas station attendant. Yea, I thought it was funny too, but he told me stories of how he had originally been teaching with another school that has already been established here and eventually hated it. He said that it didn't feel like anything genuine and it was too different and uncomfortable for him. His original plan was to stick with them until he had enough money as to start his own school but apparently he did not enjoy it and became a gas station attendant.

Though luckily he didn't stick with that job for a long time and through some very dedicated students of his (some had stuck with him when he had quit that school) he had recieved tremendous help and eventually he came from a bullshido school to garages and yards to renting dance studios (that's about when I joined) to his own school he has now that started back in May. So yea, I don't think it matters if you advertise or whatnot, just don't become some sellout.

My favorite thing about my teacher is that he doesn't just observe, he actually goes through our whole training alongside with us, doing everything we do. I think that that is a very genuine characteristic of what a good school should be like, a good relationship with your teacher. Like someone you could talk to about things and become close with. It's not just a guy that teaches you and helps you out only because you pay him. When that becomes the situation, I think the school would then be submitting to the commercialism way. It should be like a loving and caring family. ((I'm not sure if you guys would understand about the whole supportive family part because I think the type of environment that Chinese martial arts has is very different from others. I think I'll post some videos to show you what I mean))

I would stick with my teacher even if we had no school and we had to train in the park or something. Don't get me wrong, it definitely is a good thing to have an actual place to train at though. So yea, I guess in your situation, it could be worse.

I'm sorry, I had to laugh a little about your last comment. My sensei's usually jokingly try to play matchmaker with some of us. Well, sometimes not jokingly...I find it amusing. But definitely, while martial arts is a way of living, it shouldn't be the only element of living you have. Some might disagree with me but I think in this day and age, it's rather unhealthy.

Exactly. And its not just true of TKD either I should imagine.
But the thing that makes me think its wrong is this:
A kid can get to the standard of a first degree black belt in TKD because at the end of the day, first degree in TKD isn't that high in the food chain of black belts. Like they say 1-3 degree is actually "novice". But here's the thing if an adult spent five years training and got to black and then stopped training for a year or two and then went back to it, apart from fitness (which is always a b*****d) they would pretty much be at the same standard they were. Basically they will always be a black belt. But a kid wouldn't, say they started when they were five then stopped when they were ten or twelve (and I have seen 10-12 year old black belts), they would have a black belt, but how long would they stay at blackbelt standard? Not very long I'm guessing...