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The Last of the Timelords
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 Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:16 pm
Well I'm gonna get straight to the point. I just got finished watching "Satan's Pit" on BBCA, and it made me think of the final episode of the first season of Torchwood. In both these two episodes there was a giant demonic creature that at some point had lived outside of time, and had some connection to death or destruction. So, what if overall there is an underlying plot, having to do with a super-powerful race of demons that exist throughout the entire universe, and are the root cause of all things evil, possibly even the Daleks(as in influential). Think about it, creatures that baffled even The Doctor, and are something that can exist in the one place Timelords could not stop them. Not saying it's true, just a sudden brilliance of mine... I'm even writing a fanfic on it.
So tell me all you Whovians, what are you opinions on this idea?
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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:55 pm
I think it's vastly unlikely that we're going to get a story investigating the origins of abstract and trancendental Eeeevil on Russell's watch since he doesn't particularly seem to belive in abstract and trancendental Eeeevil.
The baddies in NewWho seem to be driven by an inability to step outside of the dicates of thier biology, thier past, or thier selfish motivations rather than driven by some spooky, external force of psuedo-theology.
The Racnoss or Cybermen are Evil, but don't behave the way they do because they're Evil - they behave the way the do because they're born starving and can't make the leap to new solutions or because they can't make the leap outside thier programming. Cassandra might well have been Evil, but wasn't motivated by some Devil whispering in her ear but by a solipsism that evaportaed when she finally stepped outside herself.
The universe of NewWho is one established as being without a God and without an Afterlife. For Evil to have an external origin in the agency of sinsiter demons would stand out like a sore thumb. Worse it would let people off the hook by spoiling the incredible moral sketch that the new series has been drawing - of a universe in which the only thing that determines whether you're evil or good are your own choices and your ability to step outside your 'programming' (whether that's mechanical programming or what your Selfish ol' Genes are yelling at you) to reach a point where you can truly make those choices.
(For all that though, you're right about there being a link between the Beasty from The Satan Pit and Abadon from End of Days. The dialogue in Torchwood establishes that their big stompy CGI-guy is the son of the big stompy CGI-guy from Doctor Who).
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Posted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:30 pm
I wonder who is Mother was... maybe they'll be a female big stompy thing. ^_^
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:49 pm
That sounds fun!
Or if they were going for the usual horror angle the mother would have to have been some poor human woman impregnated with Demon Seed! I didn't want to put an exclaimation mark at the end of that sentance but felt I had to after the phrase Demon Seed! Same goes for that one.
On the other hand, looking back at The Satan Pit though, the implication seems to be that the Great Beast reproduces memetically - though the spread and replication of the unkillable idea. So perhaps everything that partakes of his archetype, right down to the Daemons, could be considered his children.
Anyone got enough Bible-schooling to know anything about the scriptural Abaddon's mummy and daddy?
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Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:52 pm
Abaddon?
Anyways. The demons of our world are spirits who were not granted a body because they chose Lucifer's idea. So now they're mad because they were denied access to have a body. Hence why they take to possessing.
In the spirit world, we are ALL God's children. And so was Lucifer. Lucifer, after battling for power, was cast out along with his followers. Never to have a body.
I'd would have to say that the expression that would describe how they feel would make a sailor faint dead. That mad.
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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:44 am
Richard_Swift Anyone got enough Bible-schooling to know anything about the scriptural Abaddon's mummy and daddy? Basically what Triska said.. God created the angels before he created Earth, only Lucifer wanted to be like God.. he rebelled with a large number of angels behind him, and there was a large battle in heaven. In the end, Lucifer and his angels were cast down from heaven as demons, and Satan's been trying to pull everyone away from God ever since... they're all angry at God, and they oppose anyone who is his follower. I can get some references, if you like. I think it's really interesting how Doctor Who/Torchwood handles those matters..while I don't think it's going to be some huge plot later on, it's still interesting.
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:16 am
The name Ianto and Billis both give for Torchwood's big stompy CGI guy. He's an actual beasty from Revelation, and since that book is full of odd births and emergences wondered if it gave a specific origin for him, rather than a general account of demons. I s'pose I'll look it up. Thanks both though for the Demonology 101, even if it sounds like yours has had a bit of 'theological retconning' applied to it Triska. wink You've got hold of a very 'New Age' translation of the Bible if it uses the phrase 'Spirit World'! smile
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:41 am
That's not New Age. The phrase "Spirit World" has been around for hundreds of years. I have and read the King James version, silly.
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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:09 am
Triska That's not New Age. The phrase "Spirit World" has been around for hundreds of years. I have and read the King James version, silly. The phrase may have been around (personally I doubt you'll find it used in the English language until the C19th, but am willing to be proved wrong) but it's certainly not a way of conceptulising things that's been applied to Christian theology very often, outside of fringe offshoots like the Spiritualist Church. And its definately not a phrase you'll have seen anywhere in the King James.
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