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We know not all are bad and never said or mean to sound like all are bad but alot pro-choices do seem to act that way sadly.

I used to be just personal pro-life (and still am) and I though that seeing that I was only personal pro-life, I could still join and be accept in the pro-choice guild since they're others also that were personal pro-life as well (to make a long story short, I was basically treated like crap and so I left and due to bad experience with some of them, I tend to feel bitter at times but I know not all of you are like that).

All the ones in this guild seem to be nice and respectful.

Heavens no!<3

I myself was a pro-choicer once. I understand the pro-choice stance perfectly, and I don't disrespect the position-- I just have too much empathy for all parties involved to allow the death of one of them to be acceptable.

And I used to be quite friendly with a lot of the pro-choicers in the PCG, and I still would be if I was pro-choice.

But to answer your question, no. I can list of several pro-choicers (all the ones in this guild) that I have nothing but positive feelings for. People who have given me respect, and who I, in turn, also give respect. A lot of them seem to think that respect should be given only to those who hold the same opinion as they do, though, and I don't agree with that.

I respect everyone at first, always. It's when they say and do things that are insulting towards me and what I believe that I get a little bitter.{/rant}

But if it's any consolation, I enjoy you, miyo. I lurk in the ADT, so I've seen you post, and you seem to be more respectful and more open than a lot of the people I see posting in that thread.

For me, it's that I wouldn't want to bring a child into the world that I couldn't care for. I already have a daughter, and a son (who had better get his little butt in gear and GET here already) on the way, and in between pregnancies, my husband and I use as much protection as we can so that we can still have a loving normal adult relationship without getting pregnant.

If I were to get pregnant shortly after having this baby, I would abort, and it's not for myself. I am only thinking of my existing children. My husband and I are barely in a position to take care of TWO children (this pregnancy was somewhat unexpected), to add a third to the mix would end up being devastating to my family, and to my children, and I don't want to let anything get in the way of me being able to take care of my babies, even if it's another potential baby.

I wouldn't see that abortion as having ANYTHING to do with 'personal gain'. Yes, I'd be killing something, I admit to that, and it's not something I would want to do lightly, and it's something that my husband and I have discussed throughly, but I don't really see how wanting to protect my existing children is 'personal gain'.

(I do agree, however, that there are a lot of pro-choicers that give off the impression that they are only interested in the personal gain of having sex no matter the consequences. I'm merely trying to point out that not ALL pro-choicers are like that, and that the pro-choicers that you see in the ADT are a poor poor representation of most of the pro-choicers that exist.)

Bullshit. How is killing someone thinking of them? I'm sorry, I cannot accept that as an answer. You are willing to kill a child to maintain your sexual relationship, yes? If the abortion is not selfish, then the means to creating the aborted fetus are.

Please don't take what I'm about to say the wrong way, because I can't think of a good way to phrase it, and I don't mean you any disrespect, because I admire that you're advocating what you feel is right.

It's not that I think you're a selfish person. It's just that there is a way to avoid abortion and avoid bringing a third child into the mix...avoid having sex until you'd be able to handle an unintended pregnancy without abortion.

That's not always very practical, I know, and it can be very hard to carry on a relationship without it, but it is possible to do, and has been done. Being unwilling to even attempt it is being willing to kill something rather than refrain from sex.

It is a scary thing to face the prospect of an unwanted pregnancy. It is hard. Being pregnant, giving birth, all of that, is a difficult thing to do unless you're in very particular circumstances. I know you're thinking of your own children, of your husband, your family.

Again, it comes down to there being a way to avoid abortion AND avoid endangering your family dynamic, it's just difficult.

But then again, a fetus probably isn't on the same level of importance to you as a born child, because I'm pretty sure that if you suddenly fell into the same physical and financial situation that pregnancy would, your answer wouldn't be to kill your born child.

Basically, it's personal gain because you're having sex, knowing you will abort if you get pregnant. No matter how careful you are, you know the chance exists, yet you're willing to risk killing something in order to have that pleasure, that gain. That might not matter to you because you don't see a fetus as the same as a born person, but it's still personal gain if you're choosing to have sex, unless you get nothing out of sex.

If you don't feel a fetus is a person, is this a bad thing? Isn't sex worth it, and isn't it responsible as long as you're willing to deal with the pregnancy when it comes, even if dealing with it involves abortion? Other people are going to feel it is a bad thing because they feel a fetus is a person (and let's face it, if a couple said to you that rather than refraining from pleasure they'd kill their born child you'd have objections to that on a moral level, the same ones many who are pro-life have) but that's pretty natural.

I didn't try to claim that it wasn't selfish. confused

Euthanasia?

I agree that it may be selfish, I see where you guys are coming from. I still see it as protecting my existing children, and the relationship that I have with my husband. I'd do the same thing if, say, hugging my husband could result in a pregnancy, or something that didn't involve sex. Sex is just a small part of the many things that I cherish with my relationship with my husband, and I hold it on the same level as being able to talk to him daily, or being able to fall asleep together at night.

Please, as angering as my opinions may be, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, or 'convert' or say why I'm 'right' in doing anything. I'm just trying to show that the pro-choicers aren't all heartless bastards the way that some pro-lifers seem to think (in the same way that pro-lifers care about everyone, not 'just the fetuses'). Please try to remain civil.