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Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:42 pm
If a critical analysis of the SasuNaru pairing is going to bother you, then you probably shouldn’t read this. I am not bashing SasuNaru. What I am attempting to do is criticize the feminine portrayal of Naruto in typical SasuNaru fan works, and to use that critique to explain why some fans prefer the NaruSasu dynamic. Again, if this sounds like it will insult you, then you probably shouldn’t read it.“Why NaruSasu?”I’ve seen a lot of people asking this question lately, and while I can’t speak for every NaruSasu fan, I can at least give my take on why I, personally, prefer this version of the pairing between Sasuke and Naruto. A lot of my reasoning comes not so much from Sasuke’s character, but from Naruto’s. I was, admittedly, at first equally fond of the pairing either way. I love both characters, I love the interesting relationship that they develop over the course of the series, and any fan fiction or fanart which competently shows that relationship developing into something more is something that I will enjoy. Notice, however, the word ‘competently,’ and take into consideration the fact that I don’t consider turning either one of the characters into a girl to be competent. The reason I was pushed away from SasuNaru is because every fanfic that I read with the pairing done that way turned Naruto into a weepy, whiney, and most importantly weak girl. So, to start off, I’ll go into Naruto’s character and explain why I think this portrayal of him butchers the actual character that Kishimoto created. Naruto’s CharacterNaruto is, first of all, very male. I have three younger brothers, and I can promise you that as the series starts out, Naruto is the epitome of a typical twelve-year-old boy. He is loud, obnoxious, and has no concept of politeness or manners. He knows what he wants, and shouts it to anyone who will listen. Whether it’s his dream to become hokage, to make Sakura his girlfriend, whatever, he’s not at all shy about it. As the main character of the series, Naruto obviously develops into a very powerful individual. I fail to see the weak, needy creature portrayed in fanart and fan fiction. Fandom’s PortrayalYou’ll notice, both in Naruto’s description in typical SasuNaru fan fiction and his portrayal in SasuNaru fanart, that he seems to be an overly thin, feminine, large-eyed, limp-haired individual. This change should be even more obvious than the change that takes place with his personality. Just one look at Naruto in the series shows that he is far from ‘overly thin.’ Let’s face it, guys, his face is downright chubby before the timeskip, and personally, I find it adorable. I wouldn’t change it for anything. Which brings me to Naruto’s eyes. Yes, Naruto does have larger eyes than Sasuke. However, I don’t equate this with meaning that he’s a ‘wuvy wittle uke boy who needs his Sasuke to save him with his love!” I take this more to indicate Naruto’s innocence, in many ways. He’s spent his life shunned by the village, but he’s also been very sheltered in a way that Sasuke has not. He doesn’t really understand the world for what it is, which is a very simplistic view, but, again, does not make him feminine in any way; it makes him childish. It allows him to be the boyish hero that the series needs. Continuing on the concept of his eyes, but from a more superficial standpoint, while Naruto’s eyes are bigger than Sasuke’s, he squints them quite a bit, especially before the timeskip. I’ve always found that to be one of Naruto’s most likeable traits, and was incredibly disappointed when I saw a thread in another guild suggesting that he not do it so much, because it ‘hides his gorgeous eyes!’ It was, to me, just another attempt to turn Naruto into what the fan girls want him to be, as opposed to what he is, the character that Kishimoto created. Okay, we’ve gone over the eyes, let’s move to Naruto’s hair. This is, aside from Naruto’s weight, the most obvious physical change that I see to his character, most noticeably in fanart. Naruto’s spiky, boyish hair becomes somehow flat and silky. The one and only time we see Naruto’s hair like this is when it’s wet, and even then it’s not to the degree that it is done in fan fiction. While artistic license is fine, the problem is, again, that fans start to believe that this is what Naruto actually looks like. They push the fan-altered hair, along with the other previously mentioned, fan-altered physical attributes, onto the actual character and use them in arguments as to why Naruto is a ’girly uke.’ If we’re looking purely at the physical, Sasuke is the one with the more feminine attributes. The longer, more ‘flowing’ hair, the pale skin, the way he’s more precise and has less of the typical, almost clumsy nature usually attributed to men. He’s also often shown in more stereotypically ‘feminine’ poses than Naruto is.   Sasuke and Naruto’s RelationshipI often hear the argument that Naruto would be more willing to let Sasuke top him simply because he’s the more emotional of the two, the more willing to let his love for the other overcome his need for dominance over him. This is really untrue. Sasuke is very emotional. He is affected by his emotions in a way that no one else in the series is. His emotions are what Itachi uses against him. His emotions are a big part of what drove him to leave Konoha in the first place. Sasuke even makes efforts to suppress them-giving him the emotionless appearance that people refer to- because they are so strong and control him so completely, and it’s a ‘weakness’ that he recognizes. Because of the emotion that Naruto shows (and, like a true little boy, he's rather loud about it), many fans take it to mean that he'd be willing to just... take it in the name of true love or something, just so that he could prove to Sasuke that he really loves him. Well... this analysis of Naruto is a bit confusing. While he is a very empathetic person (which is what drives him to help Gaara and Haku), he's also a very single-minded character at times. He doesn't really see things in the same perspective as everyone else. Like when it came to Sasuke in the VotE battle, Naruto wasn't quite able to comprehend anything aside from the fact that Sasuke was leaving the village, and that all of his friends had put their lives in danger. Naruto thought it was all about power, when in actuality, it was about revenge. Or when it came to Neji, for example. All Naruto really understood was that Neji had been screwed over by his family. There was no way he'd be able to understand the complexities of the Hyuuga clan. So he just let it go. And he can get away with that, because he's a little boy. That's just the way it works. So when saying that Naruto would give everything to Sauke in the name of TRU LUV or something, keep in mind that Naruto would probably never just give himself to something so... frivolous. I also don't think there are any girls who would do that in Naruto-verse, seeing as how in a ninja village, there would just be so much more to worry about and to deal with in general, I doubt they would have time to ponder the complexities of TRU LUV. In fact, that sort of thing doesn’t often come up in the series. It’s there, like with Zabuza and Haku, for example, but it’s never able to be what we think of as true love. It’s often in the background, because there are life and death things going on (think of Asuma and Kurenai, here). Also, one has to take into consideration that Sasuke has had a rather messed up childhood, what with Itachi and everything. I mean, even to non-ItaSasu fans, it's easy to see the child that Sasuke was: easy going, cheerful, eager to please. It just seems that after everything he's lost (whereas Naruto had nothing to begin with), he'd do whatever it took to keep something that he'd gained (obviously so long as it didn't interfere with Itachi-hunting). Sasuke is very developed as a character. He's very well-rounded, intelligent, and more mature for his age than most kids (even though his behaviour at the VotE is a little... touch and go; he often lets his emotions get in the way of his common sense). I believe that he, with very little effort, would be able to comprehend the way a relationship really works between two people. In the bedroom and out of it. Which is why I think he'd just let it happen and go with it (and this isn't even counting the fact that TJ!Sasuke would probably think that he OWES Naruto for what happened between them), accepting the fact that Naruto would be unwilling to show 'weakness'. Sasuke’s personality aside, though, Naruto’s main drive with Sasuke has always been to be seen as his equal or better. That’s basically what the entire first part of the series is about. Allowing Sasuke to dominate him would shatter that. Naruto is in no way submissive- I honestly do not believe that he could be the main character of a shounen manga if he was. He works for what he wants, and growing up the way he did, he understands that he cannot expect help from anyone. He’s very independent, in that sense. His relationship with Sasuke reflects this: he doesn’t want Sasuke to coddle him or treat him like a weakling. Naruto could never be happy being treated as inferior to Sasuke in any way; especially sexually, I think. Also, along the same basic train of thought, Sasuke is psychologically more mature than Naruto is. Whereas Sasuke would probably be more likely to understand that the bottom in a relationship is not necessarily the weaker partner, but actually has more power in the relationship and control of the situation, Naruto simply wouldn't get it. It's just something that to him would symbolize a weakness that he'd think would force Sasuke away from him. Typical Arguments:"But look at this scene of the anime! Look how pretty Naruto looks!" Yes, Naruto has his pretty moments. But if having a few pretty moments makes a character girly, then we have to go find a decently sharp knife and chop off Sasuke’s p***s right now. And Itachi’s. And Deidara’s. Hell, let’s girly-fy the whole cast and give them boobs to match! Joking aside, my point is that there are plenty of pretty male characters in the series, but that doesn’t make them girly in any way. Neji is a great example. When I first saw a picture of him, I had not yet seen him in the anime or the manga. When he did finally show up, based on his appearance, I was expecting a very feminine character. I got instead… Neji. Who, while not as obviously boyish as Naruto, has a more mature masculinity about him that is still not feminine in any way. Naruto, on the other hand, doesn’t even have a ‘pretty’ look all the time. It happens in rare moments, more in the anime than the manga, which fan girls (including me) like to screencap and squee over. The typical Naruto, however, has a boyish look about him: short, spiky hair, tanned skin, etc. It’s almost as if Kishimoto was trying to push the fact that Naruto is a typical boy… who just happens to have a demon sealed inside of him. It makes for an interesting contrast, which is what I think he was going for: to avoid the usual anime representation of what a ‘demonic’ character would be like (probably closer to Sasuke’s personality). Another thing to keep in mind is that this is not how Naruto always looks. Hell, it's not even how he usually looks. This appearance is very rare for Naruto, and it's unfair to characterize him based purely on one or two instances of physical appearance while leaving the entire rest of the series-and how he looks in it- out. It's actually very superficial, don't you think? Kind of like picking and choosing very miniscule things that you like about him, and disregarding everything else as irrelevant. Akatsuki Member Hoshiko while your points are very true. i still will remain as a SasuNaru fan, not the other way around. i still think this way because of the noise level coming out of both of them, while Naruto is the typical 12-year-old boy and Sasuke had truama in his life causing him to change his view on life, Naruto is very whiney, somewhat like a girl sort of whiney[have you ever seen those sterotypical girls who get al whiney when they dont get there way? -_-; thats what im reffering to.] while Sasuke is almost equally whiney, he mostly keeps it inside. so when something pisses Sasuke off he walks away, sort of like aguy who doenst care, meanwhile if Narto gets pissed he goes balstic like a girl, trying to prove other wise. then you have the power part, Sasuke has power know what he's doing [for the most part] while Naruto's power's are getting there he fumbles alot much like Sakura, Ino, and Hinata.[not saying they arent strong just they fumble with there strengths.and this is pre time-skip. Sakura gets alotof powerin the Shippuuden and she knows how to use it.]Sakura, Ino, and Hinata fumble alot much like Naruto thinking they have much more power[or in Hinata's case alot less power] than they really do. so Naruto is constantly winging it n matches. SAsuke seems to have ahandle on his power and ablities and doesnt have a problem using themat the right moment. and while the fan drawings of Naruto having flatten hair, are cute, you are correct they dont sho off the fact that Naruto is more masculine than they show. but here's another thing, Naruto created the Sexy Jutsu, a female character, so Naruto is more femine than you think,peverted in his femine side but still, a femalish character. =3 Actually, let's start with the sexy no jutsu, because that's a misconception that annoys me more than most others xD; I should have put that in the essay itself, but it completely slipped my mind. The sexy no jutsu does not make Naruto feminine anymore than doing the male/male version of the jutsu to impress Sakura made Konohamaru gay. It makes Naruto smart, and it makes him perverted. It is in no way feminine, it is actually very masculine to know what sort of woman other men will like. Again, if you were going along that train of thought, you'd also have to assume that because Konohamaru did the SasuSai version, that he's gay. But Konohamaru at least at one time had a thing for Moegi. So no, the sexy no jutsu does not make Naruto feminine in any way. It makes him a smart guy who knows what kind of woman he and other guys would like to see naked ^^; The whining thing? You would be right, except that you're looking at twelve-year-old Naruto. Notice that older Naruto stops a lot of that, after the timeskip? In assuming that it's a feminine thing to do, you're keeping in mind older boys/men, and not taking into account that the Naruto you're talking about is twelve. I have three little brothers, trust me, twelve-year-old boys are very whiney. It doesn't make them girly, it just makes them annoying. As for Naruto's power, I don't really see how the way he fights makes him girly. He's actually very boyish in his fighting style, as well, in that he just throws himself into a fight with no real regard for what he's doing. Sakura, Ino, and Hinata aren't like that, they just lack the brute strength (before the timeskip) that the male characters have. Naruto is in no way lacking in brute strength (can we say Kyuubi? - he's probably one of the most overall powerful characters in the series), just in tactical skills. Sakura is actually a very tactical fighter, so there's not really any similarity between their fighting styles. Sooo... while you can continue to believe that Naruto is girly if you want to, you're going to have to provide some better proof in order to convince me. xD Thanks for trying, though, you're one of the first people who has bothered and I was really looking forward to more discussion with people. Blue Aether I have heard many people say that Sasuke is uke 'cause his name ends in "uke" *rolls eyes* if you have even a basic knowleadge of Japanese, you will find out that the "yaoi" term uke has nothing to do with Sasuke. Anyway, I think Sasuke is seme because: he is the silent, dark type, and he likes to take control of everything. If you follow the anime and manga, you will know what I mean. Naruto also likes to have control, but he loves Sasuke and is always worried about him, and I think he would gladly let Sasuke control the situation (giving him hell for it from time to time!) ^w^ And now I will speak from my point of view; please mind the fact that I do not watch the anime, I only read the manga (I hate the anime 'cause they make Naruto look like a dumb fool) Although it is true that at the beginning of the manga Naruto is very "boyish", in the latest manga chapters he has shown a more warm side of himself, almost to the point of crying... and it was when he was speaking of Sasuke! ^-^ I didn't bring up the SasUKE thing in the essay because, while it might be amusing to joke about, like the 'SasuNaru sounding better than NaruSasu' thing that someone else mentioned, it has no place in a serious discussion. It would only hurt my argument to use pointless things like that. Which is why I kept what little joking I did use to the "Just For Fun" section, to emphasize the point that none of that was honestly a part of my argument for NaruSasu. I can't really respond to what you said in the second paragraph, because Selenai and I already basically refuted that in the essay. If you want to look over it again, feel free, I don't really have the energy to go over all of it again at the moment xD; *writing a paper for class* As for the rest, I don't think Naruto has shown a more 'warm' side of himself at all. He was always very empathetic, if you'll remember things like the Zabuza and Haku arc, as well as the way he got so upset about the treatment of Neji and other Hyuugas by the main branch. Those are only two examples, but I'm fairly sure there are other times as well. Naruto is a lot less likely to burst into tears after the timeskip, and he seems a bit more... cold, at times. I think that's all a part of growing up, though, and also a result of some of the things he's been through. Keep in mind, as well, that while yaoi!anime and manga may sometimes make it seem this way, being dark and brooding is NOT a requirement of topping in a relationship xD; Just for a personal experience reference: my first real relationship with another girl was with a girl who was smaller than me, and very happy and hyper (while I am tall, pale, with long dark hair, and have a tendency towards being quiet and rather cynical), and she was definitely the more dominant of the two of us xD; Also, this is just my opinion, but being an empathetic person =/= "I'm a girl!" or "I bottom in bed!" It = "I'm a decent human being! icon_biggrin.gif" xD Orgo Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the best know yaoi couple Yuki and Shuichi from Gravitation? And doesn't Naruto strike you as more of a Shuichi type, they're both so loud and hyper. Where as Sasuke is most like Yuki, all cool and quiet like, plus they're both older than their partners. All I'm saying is, Naruto's character is better matched for the uke role. I actually answered this in the essay, too, so I won't go entirely into it again. All I'll say is review what was said about Naruto's personality, and question whether them both being loud is enough to qualify their personalities as the same. Most guys that I know are loud (especially younger ones, like Naruto), that doesn't make them anything like Shuichi, and it doesn't make them ukes. Or, you know, gay at all. Also, Shuichi is more of the flamboyant, stereotypically gay kind of loud, while Naruto is a 'young boy, yelling every idea that comes to him' kind of loud. Yuki and Shuichi may be the most famous yaoi couple, but it's honestly not one I particularly like. I won't go into that, because I don't want the angry yaoi mob to come after me xD The only thing I can really say is that Naruto's only similarity to Shuichi is that they are both loud. Why does one character have to fit into the uke role? Because all that role is, in most fanfiction and even yaoi manga, is the female role. Why does it have to be that way? I like yaoi because it's two men together. Why can't the relationship be something new, that suits both characters' personalities without turning one of them into a girl or shoving them into that role? All that aside, your argument is based on stereotypes. Sasuke is cool and quiet like Yuki, obviously a top. Naruto is loud like Shuichi, obviously a bottom. I think we should look more at the character's actual personality, and decide for ourselves whether, as a character, they would prefer to top or bottom during sex, if that is our focus. The focus of my essay, though, is more on exposing the portrayal of a 'girly' Naruto when canon Naruto is not girly at all, and explaining why that OOC portrayal pushes some people away from SasuNaru. Even if you hold that Naruto's loudness makes him Shuichi-like, do you honestly see him as being canonly girly, as fanfiction portrays him to be? I intended to have more in this section, but I was finishing this thing up really late at night, and my brain just refused to work… If anyone has anything they’d like to add to the Arguments Section, whether it’s your own argument for SasuNaru, or one you’ve often heard, post it and I’ll add it here in the first post, with a response if you don’t already have one.ConclusionMy point here is not, by any means, to down the SasuNaru fandom. Not at all. We’re all Naruto yaoi fans, and we get enough s**t from anime fans who have jumped on the “hate Naruto” bandwagon, not to mention those who just hate yaoi in general. My aim is to simply answer the “Why NaruSasu?” question, while at the same time explaining that while there is nothing wrong with preferring fan works featuring the feminized version of Naruto, he is the not the actual Naruto created by Kishimoto. He is the fans’ representation of Kishimoto’s character. I only insist on making this distinction because so many fans have seen this version of Naruto so many times that they actually begin to believe that this is what Naruto is really like, and that is why I think they have so much of a problem understanding why someone might prefer NaruSasu. Therefore, pointing out the distinction is necessary in explaining NaruSasu. You see, those fans are right, to a certain extent. The feminized version of Naruto is so popular in fan fiction that it’s hard to find anything else - as someone who has been a NaruSasu fan for about two years now, that problem is all too clear to me. If I had seen and read that version of Naruto so many times that it became real to me, then I’d definitely have a hard time seeing Naruto top a cupcake, much less Sasuke, which is why I decided to write this. If you’ve forgotten Naruto’s true character, then it really is going to be impossible for you to understand NaruSasu. Neither Sasuke or Naruto is weak or girly. The reason why I like yaoi is because it is two men together. I think that the problem with SasuNaru many times is that people are so used to heterosexual couples that they want to find a character in a yaoi pairing to push into the typically feminine role. However, in a pairing where both characters are masculine, this can only be achieved by changing one character’s personality. This is fine in something like Gravitation, where Shuichi naturally accepts the feminine role in the relationship, or in yaoi involving original characters, where you might have a more typically submissive or feminine character. However, when neither character fits easily into this role, as with Sasuke and Naruto, instead of forcing one of them into it, I think it’s better to envision an entirely new kind of relationship that doesn’t fit into society’s typical idea of a heterosexual pairing. After all, isn’t that what yaoi’s supposed to be all about? Just for Fun!First, a chronicle of Sasuke’s epic amounts of gay. (Keep in mind that these are just for fun. I don’t see canon!Sasuke as all that much girlier than Naruto, he’s just amusing to make fun of.)  How could we forget curse seal Sasuke? He comes with lipstick and hair extensions.  Limp-wristed. Or asking Kakashi if his nails are dry yet- following in his big brother‘s footsteps.  The flute is a phallic symbol. <3  …There’s really nothing to say here. And finally, a little Naruto to finish things up.  Naruto seems to be hiding something rather large under there. Seriously, guys, he should be putting that thing to good use. Co-written with Selenai.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:42 am
I half agree with you. =/ (And hey, you shouldn't say ALL SasuNaru fan fics; I've written a few that didn't make Naruto into a chick. XD; Though I'm not saying you're all "RAWRZ JOO TOO", I'd just like to add that it isn't truly ALL.)
You have to take fan fics with a grain of salt. If you were judging the hetero fiction, you'd think it was full of nothing more than moronic 12 year old girls putting themselves into the picture to make a man, who hasn't even shown interest in the female friend he's close to, fall madly in love with him. It's hard to find any good hetero fan fics anymore, the bulk are based with horrible stereotypes and Mary-Sues. Given that, I know there are a few out there that ARE good, it's just rare to find. Generally it isn't kind to base your judgments upon a whole genre that is misrepresented. Wasn't Chasing Naruto SasuNaru? That was truly well written, and neither turned out to be feminine. (Ha, thus ends my knowledge of fan fiction; I generally stay away from browsing for it as there ARE a lot of crappy fics to sift through.) If I went by fan fiction alone, I'd probably end up hating ItaSasu, and generally a few other pairings that are under represented and when written, are badly characterized.
I agree, it's annoying to make either feminine, but you're kind of supporting that. (Though I think you're meaning the lesser of two evils, or at least why Sasuke would fall under it more than Naruto would.) I don't think either Sasuke or Naruto could count as feminine, as you've said under the conclusion. Why not write about how neither are, rather than support NaruSasu, which just makes Sasuke into a girl as badly as SasuNaru makes Naruto? I think both fandoms are at fault for that. Sasuke might seem like a drag queen in his curse seal glory (ha ha, first time I saw him I thought he'd burst into 'It's Raining Men') but his over all personality begs to differ.
In my opinion, given those two's history and if this was less anime and more real life-ish, they would take turns. Given how competitive they both are toward each other, it would likely be a game. I don't see either just bending over for the other. I think NaruSasu is more likely only in that Sasuke currently has more important things in mind ( surprised Molesting his aniki?) rather than pay attention to those around him. Naruto, on the other hand, is completely absorbed in all that Sasuke is. In that, I agree with you about the pairing, but if they were to actually end up together, I think it would be a mutual relationship.
Curse the media which sensationalizes gays as being effeminate and always searching for that manly man. Most gay men I know that ARE effeminate, don't go after a man who oozes manliness but drool over anyone who's generally good looking. The media's representation, and a lot of yaoi, has a lot to do with this view. Given that a lot of the younger people don't know anyone who IS gay, they're opt to take that representation and run with it. (Also, in Gravi Shuichi was feminine-ish from the beginning, before he ran into Yuki. Whenever he and Hiro would pretend to be gay, he was the one on the bottom. So he didn't give into Yuki's seme-ness, he was already there. Yuki, toward the end, isn't quite as 'typical seme' either, he was crying more than Shuichi was in a few volumes.... Though given why he was crying, I don't blame him. Gravitation wasn't a stereotypical BL manga in most regards, especially in the remixes that she wrote. XD; Yuki was bent over more times than Shuichi was.)
=/ Take a good look at Deidara. He isn't that feminine in the anime, but in fan fiction and doujinshi, he's changed into an uke girl. While I might support that he's a total goof ball, he cannonly isn't quite as girly as fiction might have you think.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:19 am
Rose Koneko I half agree with you. =/ (And hey, you shouldn't say ALL SasuNaru fan fics; I've written a few that didn't make Naruto into a chick. XD; Though I'm not saying you're all "RAWRZ JOO TOO", I'd just like to add that it isn't truly ALL.)
You have to take fan fics with a grain of salt. If you were judging the hetero fiction, you'd think it was full of nothing more than moronic 12 year old girls putting themselves into the picture to make a man, who hasn't even shown interest in the female friend he's close to, fall madly in love with him. It's hard to find any good hetero fan fics anymore, the bulk are based with horrible stereotypes and Mary-Sues. Given that, I know there are a few out there that ARE good, it's just rare to find. Generally it isn't kind to base your judgments upon a whole genre that is misrepresented. Wasn't Chasing Naruto SasuNaru? That was truly well written, and neither turned out to be feminine. (Ha, thus ends my knowledge of fan fiction; I generally stay away from browsing for it as there ARE a lot of crappy fics to sift through.) If I went by fan fiction alone, I'd probably end up hating ItaSasu, and generally a few other pairings that are under represented and when written, are badly characterized.
I agree, it's annoying to make either feminine, but you're kind of supporting that. (Though I think you're meaning the lesser of two evils, or at least why Sasuke would fall under it more than Naruto would.) I don't think either Sasuke or Naruto could count as feminine, as you've said under the conclusion. Why not write about how neither are, rather than support NaruSasu, which just makes Sasuke into a girl as badly as SasuNaru makes Naruto? I think both fandoms are at fault for that. Sasuke might seem like a drag queen in his curse seal glory (ha ha, first time I saw him I thought he'd burst into 'It's Raining Men') but his over all personality begs to differ.
In my opinion, given those two's history and if this was less anime and more real life-ish, they would take turns. Given how competitive they both are toward each other, it would likely be a game. I don't see either just bending over for the other. I think NaruSasu is more likely only in that Sasuke currently has more important things in mind ( surprised Molesting his aniki?) rather than pay attention to those around him. Naruto, on the other hand, is completely absorbed in all that Sasuke is. In that, I agree with you about the pairing, but if they were to actually end up together, I think it would be a mutual relationship.
Curse the media which sensationalizes gays as being effeminate and always searching for that manly man. Most gay men I know that ARE effeminate, don't go after a man who oozes manliness but drool over anyone who's generally good looking. The media's representation, and a lot of yaoi, has a lot to do with this view. Given that a lot of the younger people don't know anyone who IS gay, they're opt to take that representation and run with it. (Also, in Gravi Shuichi was feminine-ish from the beginning, before he ran into Yuki. Whenever he and Hiro would pretend to be gay, he was the one on the bottom. So he didn't give into Yuki's seme-ness, he was already there. Yuki, toward the end, isn't quite as 'typical seme' either, he was crying more than Shuichi was in a few volumes.... Though given why he was crying, I don't blame him. Gravitation wasn't a stereotypical BL manga in most regards, especially in the remixes that she wrote. XD; Yuki was bent over more times than Shuichi was.)
=/ Take a good look at Deidara. He isn't that feminine in the anime, but in fan fiction and doujinshi, he's changed into an uke girl. While I might support that he's a total goof ball, he cannonly isn't quite as girly as fiction might have you think. surprised Didn't say all SasuNaru fanfics, as far as I know. Made a point of saying things like 'typical' SasuNaru fanfiction, or 'most' SasuNaru fanfiction, or sometimes just 'fandom' to generalize a bit more. If I ever said all, then it was a mistake. xD; Hell, I'VE written SasuNaru fanfiction, too, you know. Remember Watching? And no, Chasing Naruto wasn't SasuNaru. It mixed the two, NaruSasu and SasuNaru. Another reason why I made a point to put at the top that I used to like SasuNaru, but that the majority of it chased me away. I wasn't arguing, in this post, against SasuNaru fanfiction in general, as I said. I was arguing against the feminized version of Naruto represented in what has, unfortunately, become typical SasuNaru fanfiction, as even you pointed out when you said that it's only the majority. x.x; I made a point of saying that so that no one would misunderstand, but it's possible that I just wasn't clear enough. I'll try to find a way to fix that. I don't actually find ItaSasu to be badly characterized, as whole. I tend to like nearly every one I find, and the bad ones usually (I say usually because I remember one horrible on on AFF in which BOTH Itachi and Sasuke inexplicably became girly o.o; ) have more of a problem with grammar and punctuation than characterization. I'm not supporting making Sasuke feminine in fanfiction at all xD; My point at the end is that I avoid SasuNaru because Naruto is, more often than not, made feminine in those. Then, at the end, I added that I think when neither character easily falls into the feminine role, such as with Sasuke and Naruto, I think a new sort of relationship should be developed, that loses the necessity for one character to be 'girly' Not for one character to bottom, just to be girly. I see that kind of relationship most often in NaruSasu fanfiction. Sasuke may be the bottom, yes, but he's not a girl. I see this most often represented in Arigatomina's NaruSasu fics, and I highly recommend them. If you're arguing that NaruSasu feminizes Sasuke just as often as SasuNaru feminizes Naruto, I'd certainly have to beg to differ xD; And I could pull up several instances of proof, whereas I can't think of hardly any SasuNaru fics at all, despite years of reading them, that don't make Naruto girly. Not to say that NaruSasu writers and fanartists never feminize Sasuke, because yeah, they do. Just not to the degree that SasuNaru feminizes Naruto. Though, admittedly, I see a lot more of Sasuke being feminized in fanart than I do in fanfiction, but it's usually things like dressing him in dresses and whatnot (which, admittedly, can either be funny, or equally disturbing), not so much changing the way he actually looks, because let's admit, Sasuke looks more naturally feminine than Naruto does xD; The only REAL physical alteration that I tend to see is that, yes, they do make him thinner than he is canonly. In Shippuuden, especially, he's downright muscular canonly. I see the mutual relationship more, too, but that's even harder to find than NaruSasu, and the question I saw in the guild and was answering was "Why NaruSasu?" not "Why NaruSasuNaru?" I also never said Shuichi gave into Yuki's manliness. I said that he naturally accepted the feminine role in the relationship, which would be exactly what you're talking about when you say that he was 'already there,' just in more flowery speech. xD I could clean that up to make it more understandable, too. I tend to write things for myself, and don't think about how weird it might sound to other people. Anyway, xD; I don't think he gave into Yuki's 'manliness' (or lack thereof, many times, in my opinion xD) at all. As I said, I think you're right, and that's why I used him as an example: he easily fit into the role all by himself. My point was that neither Sasuke nor Naruto does. And yes, I know. xD I used Deidara as an example further up, as well. Dunno if you saw or not, but I thought you'd like that.
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:29 am
XD; Of course I remember Watching, that's the only reason why I return to aff.net, to check to see if you've updated it. XP I'm just saying that you said all that you have read, and you've read a few that weren't like that. You were mostly clear in that it was typical SasuNaru fanfics I suppose, but it's hard to be generalizing when it's a pro-pairing report rather than an objective look at both pairings. (Though I know WHY it isn't an objective look at both, I was just saying. XD; )
ItaSasu has taken a generic tone in fanfiction, at least when I stopped reading it there had been. It's hard enough to find the pairing, so I suppose that's to be expected. There's only so many ways for them to get together in a way that doesn't seem outrageous, so I suppose that's something else to consider.
I know you're not generally supportive of either man being feminine-ized, I was merely pointing out that this was how it sounded in some parts of the essay. You answered the question in well thought out ways, I suppose I was just putting in my two cents in, because I honestly see them being together, rather than an uke and seme. It's a shame, and annoying, when people take a strong character and decide that if they uke, they'll have to be feminine. o.O It's a little offensive toward women too; if we're girly, we have to be uke? Most doms I know were girly girls, not butch manly types. Ah, yaoi... will you never learn?
I guess for the Gravi bit, it was just a miscommunication. I took it a different way than you meant it, and acted accordingly. D: I don't know why I missed the part with Deidara, must have been when I was hiding what I was reading from my professor. XD;; (I'm so bad at looking like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.)
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Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:54 am
Rose Koneko XD; Of course I remember Watching, that's the only reason why I return to aff.net, to check to see if you've updated it. XP I'm just saying that you said all that you have read, and you've read a few that weren't like that. You were mostly clear in that it was typical SasuNaru fanfics I suppose, but it's hard to be generalizing when it's a pro-pairing report rather than an objective look at both pairings. (Though I know WHY it isn't an objective look at both, I was just saying. XD; ) ItaSasu has taken a generic tone in fanfiction, at least when I stopped reading it there had been. It's hard enough to find the pairing, so I suppose that's to be expected. There's only so many ways for them to get together in a way that doesn't seem outrageous, so I suppose that's something else to consider. I know you're not generally supportive of either man being feminine-ized, I was merely pointing out that this was how it sounded in some parts of the essay. You answered the question in well thought out ways, I suppose I was just putting in my two cents in, because I honestly see them being together, rather than an uke and seme. It's a shame, and annoying, when people take a strong character and decide that if they uke, they'll have to be feminine. o.O It's a little offensive toward women too; if we're girly, we have to be uke? Most doms I know were girly girls, not butch manly types. Ah, yaoi... will you never learn? I guess for the Gravi bit, it was just a miscommunication. I took it a different way than you meant it, and acted accordingly. D: I don't know why I missed the part with Deidara, must have been when I was hiding what I was reading from my professor. XD;; (I'm so bad at looking like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing.) gonk Watching = probably never going to get updated. I hit a brick wall, and I don't even remember what I had planned out for the rest of the chapters anymore. I made an effort to keep it so that I said things like 'typical' SasuNaru fanfiction. I probably went overboard the one time you found where I said all the SasuNaru fanfics I've read have been that way. Maybe I should have said all that I've read in the past year, or past six months? Then, you have to take into account the fact that, what pushed me away even more, was that every time I tried to leave a review with constructive criticism, gently pointing out how Naruto was a bit OOC and suggesting ways to fix that, the author would get extremely pissed. I had one author actually write an entire author's note that took up one chapter, this thing could've been an ESSAY, arguing with me (badly) about why Naruto's girly-ness was justified in her fanfic. That was when I was like, "...Okay, time to leave this part of the fandom." When people start saying, basically, "NO, Naruto is a girl with a p***s!" I know that I'm in the wrong place xD; And yeah, it couldn't really be an objective look at both because my whole premise was explaining why some fans prefer NaruSasu OVER SasuNaru. So what I had to do was point out the flaws with SasuNaru and what I like about NaruSasu. At the same time, though, I do realize that there are flaws with NaruSasu, as well, this just wasn't the time or place to point them out. One thing that I can think of off the top of my head in NaruSasu fanction, no research required, is that Naruto is generally TOO masculine. He usually has a sort of body-builder or football player type description, as far as his physique, and while I think that base-wise, not height-wise, Naruto is a big guy, he's not really significantly bigger than Sasuke, especially after the timeskip. My thing is just that I think that the character butchering takes places a lot less in NaruSasu than it does in SasuNaru. I tend to avoid ItaSasu anywhere but LJ, or things that are recommended to me. But that's what I basically do with all fanfiction now, because wading through all the crap has gotten almost intolerable xD; Well, the only way I can think of that it seemed like I was supporting feminization of Sasuke would be when I pointed out that he has more feminine qualities than Naruto. I do think that this is true, but mostly in the sense that Naruto is just so boyish that the feminization of him that takes place in fanfiction and fanart literally baffles me, because, in my opinion, they couldn't have picked a more boyish character to turn into a girl. It's just literally... very strange to me, and I'm not quite sure how it began. But anyway, I made a point, at least twice, of saying that I didn't think either Sasuke or Naruto should be feminized, especially in my conclusion. I'm not even saying that I support Sasuke in the 'uke' position, because uke means so much more now than just being on the bottom during sex. Fans almost literally take it to mean being a girl with a p***s, and that's not what I want for Sasuke. That's why I say that I think, especially with Sasuke and Naruto, fans should just define their own type of relationship in which, sure, maybe Sasuke or Naruto is on the bottom, depending on what you prefer, but neither character has to fit into the girl's role. They fill their own roles, and therefore get to keep their personalities intact.
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Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:36 pm
Right on sistas, right on. I really don't have anything to say to that. You're both completely right as far as what I read. I like them both, and I sometimes have a hard time picturing NaruSasu over SasuNaru because I just get this really bad image of Naruto being way too manly, if you know what I mean. I prefer them as equals, so maybe that's why I like both over just one.. smile
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:56 am
[ISH] Right on sistas, right on. I really don't have anything to say to that. You're both completely right as far as what I read. I like them both, and I sometimes have a hard time picturing NaruSasu over SasuNaru because I just get this really bad image of Naruto being way too manly, if you know what I mean. I prefer them as equals, so maybe that's why I like both over just one.. smile xDD Well, it's good to see people who like both over just one :3 I, personally, have never really entertained the possibility of SasuNaru myself, but it's nice when people can accept both pairings ^^ Personally speaking, I see Naruto as being really manly. Especially after the time skip, and I actually LIKE that about NaruSasu fanfiction. I honestly think that's who he is, whereas I believe that Sasuke kind of goes down another road altogether xD; I'll admit that I DO like feminine!Sasuke in RPs, but when it comes to fanfiction, I prefer equality in the way they act outside of the bedroom. I do, however, firmly believe that in the bedroom, Naruto would be very dominant, and clear in knowing what he wants and how to get it from Sasuke.
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:26 am
gonk And I think you've made me Sasuke-tolerant.
But for serious, I've never really seen Sasuke as emotional. I thought of him as just... kind of an a*****e, really. Never liked him. But not that I've seen this point of view... huh. I really do like them both as characters, now. :3 Thanks.
While I don't really support NaruSasu/SasuNaru, I really enjoyed reading that. There needs to be more people like you in the fandom, people who see more eye-to-eye with characters. Honestly, I can only really see eye-to-eye (if you so dare to call it that. xD) with Deidara, being a stubborn, mean, and mildly artistic b***h. :3 'Kaykay, I'm done rambling and trying to take up text space. xD
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:07 pm
i don't know why i like the pairing i just do sweatdrop but i think that it has to do mostly with deviant art pics i see a lot of people i noticed like to draw Naruto as kinda feminin(spelling may be wrong but meh) and i think that it has to also do with the rivalry cause i like rivals getting together i find it coolies
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:25 pm
k i m i m a r o + f a n gonk And I think you've made me Sasuke-tolerant.
But for serious, I've never really seen Sasuke as emotional. I thought of him as just... kind of an a*****e, really. Never liked him. But not that I've seen this point of view... huh. I really do like them both as characters, now. :3 Thanks.
While I don't really support NaruSasu/SasuNaru, I really enjoyed reading that. There needs to be more people like you in the fandom, people who see more eye-to-eye with characters. Honestly, I can only really see eye-to-eye (if you so dare to call it that. xD) with Deidara, being a stubborn, mean, and mildly artistic b***h. :3 'Kaykay, I'm done rambling and trying to take up text space. xD xD; I'm glad if we helped you to not hate Sasuke so much. A lot of people actually have a hard time understanding his character beyond the fact that he does a few things that are reather... yeah xD; Not okay. I mean, a lot of people call him 'emo', which, if you think about it... xD; well, it makes no sense to me, because I know if my family was killed by my brother... I'd probably be pretty emotionally unstable. But yeah xD; Thankfully this wasn't a thread about the reasons that Sasuke should be the way he is, because that is something I'm sure Chieira and myself could go on about forever. Personally, Naruto is my boy xD Without a doubt my absolute favourite character xD So maybe I'm still just a little baised towards him. :3 But I really am glad that you're Sasuke-tolerant now~ biggrin <3
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:32 pm
protecterofelements i don't know why i like the pairing i just do sweatdrop but i think that it has to do mostly with deviant art pics i see a lot of people i noticed like to draw Naruto as kinda feminin(spelling may be wrong but meh) and i think that it has to also do with the rivalry cause i like rivals getting together i find it coolies xD Personally, the sight of Naruto drawn in a really feminine way is... well xD SQUICKS me. I just don't get it xD;;;;; But that's just me. There's a lot of art on DA for NaruSasu which I find to be very, very beautiful, and quite to my taste, so I appreciate that as well. As for the rivalry bit, that's part of the reason I love NaruSasu so much xD I find their relationship absolutely fascinating ^^ Personally, though (and this is probably very single-minded of me), just as I see that most SasuNaru fanfiction is written badly, I notice that the art is kind of... xD;;;;;;;; Yeah. But, of course, as I don't actually seek it out, and just kind of see what I see, I get a very limited selection.
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:48 pm
Selenai [ISH] Right on sistas, right on. I really don't have anything to say to that. You're both completely right as far as what I read. I like them both, and I sometimes have a hard time picturing NaruSasu over SasuNaru because I just get this really bad image of Naruto being way too manly, if you know what I mean. I prefer them as equals, so maybe that's why I like both over just one.. smile xDD Well, it's good to see people who like both over just one :3 I, personally, have never really entertained the possibility of SasuNaru myself, but it's nice when people can accept both pairings ^^ Personally speaking, I see Naruto as being really manly. Especially after the time skip, and I actually LIKE that about NaruSasu fanfiction. I honestly think that's who he is, whereas I believe that Sasuke kind of goes down another road altogether xD; I'll admit that I DO like feminine!Sasuke in RPs, but when it comes to fanfiction, I prefer equality in the way they act outside of the bedroom. I do, however, firmly believe that in the bedroom, Naruto would be very dominant, and clear in knowing what he wants and how to get it from Sasuke. Well, I see him as being manly too, because in reality, that's what his character is. He's a complete boy, through and through, un like Sasuke who can be kind of girly with his mannerisms and what not. I mean, I have nothing against Naruto being manly and in charge, I just get this wierd picture in my head of him being too macho, like a wrestler, and it turns me off to NaruSasu a little.
But yeah, equality ftw.
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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:22 am
wow .. I feel really bad cause i didn't really read all of it. but i doesn't matter to me whose seme and whose uke i guess it all depends on what's happening.
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Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:06 pm
"People consider things and ask 'Why?' but I challenge things and say 'Why not?'"
this is sorta hypocritical since im a huge SasuNaru fan. but i do love the occansional "flip" heart
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:52 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the best know yaoi couple Yuki and Shuichi from Gravitation? And doesn't Naruto strike you as more of a Shuichi type, they're both so loud and hyper. Where as Sasuke is most like Yuki, all cool and quiet like, plus they're both older than their partners. All I'm saying is, Naruto's character is better matched for the uke role.
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