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 Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:58 am
I have sort of this vague notion, which is to start an ethics-based thread in here and then maybe come up with some ethical theories for or (mainly - I predict) against abortion. Then maybe try to make a sort of controllable new ED thread based on that. Which might be a bit of a problem, considering the new Ignore limit of 100 members. *wink* I want to link directly to the SubForum rules: http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=6718841Though I know everyone here has read them, right? *grin* I'm also going to post a couple quotes, just because I think it might be helpful. Da Rules - Rights - Everyone here has the right to civil discussion.
...
- Everyone here has the right to state their opinion.
- Everyone here has the right to challenge another's opinion.
- Everyone here has the right to feel safe & secure. Da Rules - Responsibilities - Follow the TOS.
- Do not make personal attacks.
- Respect each other. Okay. So now everyone has been reminded of those. So, what exactly is this thread about? This is a thread to talk about abortion in the terms of ethics. Thus, I am asking for ethical theories that show that abortion is ethical, or unethical. For reference, try this site: http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/kabernd/indep/carainbow/Theories.htmWhich is actually from a biology ethics class, it looks like. (If anyone has other sites about ethical theories, post links and I'll add them to the first post.) But don't feel intimidated! If you aren't really up on your ethical theories, feel free to post things like: what your moral/religious beliefs about abortion are (and replies to these should not attack anyone's religion), any emotions you have about abortion, or even just your opinion about abortion with some level of detail (not just "abortion is bad" but add a "because" and a couple reasons). What this thread is not: I'm sort of hoping that this thread doesn't turn into outright debate. I understand that people are going to want to respond to other posts (of course), but we do have many other threads we can debate about this issue in. I'm hoping to gather more information than to have heated discussion going on! Also, I am going to say right now that if this thread becomes ugly, I am going to lock it with probably no warning. Not as a threat, but as an explanation, since I am worried that my attempt to do this will result in chaos, and I want everyone to know that if that happens, my bad, and I will just make sure that anger doesn't translate to other places by stopping all arguing in here (and I'm hoping that I am not the main participant, but no promises - I love debating so much that I far too often get carried away). Oh - and if anyone wants to make suggestions about the (possibly) ED thread, feel more than free to do so.
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:20 pm
The fetus has a whloe life at risk, while the woman has 9 months to sacrafice.
Sex is a consensual act with known effects, being possible pregnancy.
Conciousness is irrelevent because the fetus WILL be concious soon enough.
Although bodily domain is being violated, the breech is from consensual actions and is not perminant.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:25 pm
divineseraph The fetus has a whloe life at risk, while the woman has 9 months to sacrafice. Sex is a consensual act with known effects, being possible pregnancy. Conciousness is irrelevent because the fetus WILL be concious soon enough. Although bodily domain is being violated, the breech is from consensual actions and is not perminant. I agree basically with all you said. I never took an ethics class but it's agaist my ethics since it litarlly ending a life and i'm against killing/ ending a life unless it's absolutely necessary like in life and death situation/survial or death penalty for convicted murders (their most likely violent and some even killed people which in jail and that is the only way to truly stop some of them from harming others again). I'm not saying that people that had an abortion are murders and i'm sure most are very nice people but abortion does end a life though (like it or not, but the point of abortion to end the pregnancy and the only ways to end the pregnancy is to give birth (take it out by C-section) or end the life of the embryo/fetus). This is just my personal beliefs so I'm sure not everone is agree with me with some things and i'm sure I won't agree with some things that someone elses beliefs and with a topic like this it seems sort of hard not to have a debate sweatdrop I don't really have a ethical theory, all I know is that everone have different ethics and beliefs (maybe that is due to the different environments that people were raised in so naturally people are going to think and belief differently then others since everybodies environment is different). But hopefully I did this right and not offend anyone.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:09 pm
Thank you both!
I'm pretty sure that just about everyone in here has heard my ethical logic behind why I am Pro-Choice:
Everyone has the right to control their body, which includes the right to deny use of their body to anyone. Because pregnant women retain this right, they can deny use of their bodies to unborn humans, and demand their immediate removal. Since there is no way, at this time, to remove an unborn human before viability without resulting in its death, I feel that abortion must be kept legal.
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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:15 pm
I'm trying to accurately word some sort of "working definitions" of the terms Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. If anyone wants to add/change them, feel free.
Pro-Choice: People who believe that abortion should be a legal and safe option. Mainly believe that abortion should be legal because of the right to bodily integrity. Some believe that abortion should be legal for all of the pregnancy, while others would like to see it limited to before the unborn human is viable.
Pro-Life: People who believe that abortion should not be a legal option. Mainly believe that, since abortion kills a human, it should be illegal. Often believe that because pregnancy is always a risk of consensual sex, couples should be willing to deal with an unintentional pregnancy, and either keep the resulting child or give it up for adoption. Most believe that abortions should be legal when recommended by a doctor to save the life of the pregnant woman. Some also believe that pregnancies conceived through rape should be an exception, and other believe that health problems for the woman or unborn human should also be an exception.
Please, don't suggest insulting additions like "and they smell funny". *grin*
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:43 am
Well, going down the list:
Deontology:
Well, some would say that a mother has a duty to protect her unborn offspring the same as as she would a born one. Having an abortion kind of breaks that duty. I'm not sure about abortionists. An abortionist does have the duty to do his job, however, he is also a doctor and does have the duty to "do no harm" as said by the Hippocratic oath.
Utilitarianism:
This one is difficult. I guess it depends on how much you value life compare to material possession. Having an abortion would ease the mother's financial burden, and whatever children she already has. Personally, I value the life more.
Rights:
Rights can be changed, and it sort of depends on other ethical theories, so I'll just leave this blank for now.
Casuist:
Pregnancy doesn't really compare to other situations, and if your loose enough, this can or cannot support abortion.
Virtue:
In this theory, abortion can only be acceptable for certain women, which would depend on opinion. Not really the best theory to go by.
Now for my own view. To me it isn't about which one is worth more, or about responsibilities. I go by a basic rule: No one should be forced to die for someone else's benefit, or someone else's morals.
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:28 am
I just came here to say I don't follow no stinkin rules and I will bash and flame and stomp anybody who disagrees with me! So shut up! Ha! See how kick a** I am?! I'm breaking the rules! Yeeeah! Break them rules!
Sorry. sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:08 pm
Erasmas I just came here to say I don't follow no stinkin rules and I will bash and flame and stomp anybody who disagrees with me! So shut up! Ha! See how kick a** I am?! I'm breaking the rules! Yeeeah! Break them rules! Sorry. sweatdrop Thank you for such a thrilling contribution to this thread. I don't suppose you would care to...um...actually post something that pertains to the subject matter in here? Like, say, your moral/ethical stance/opinion about abortion?
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:59 am
An abortionist does not have to be a liscenced doctor. It just so happens most of them are.
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:46 am
I could've sworn I was kidding. Geez. Sorry.
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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:33 pm
Tiger of the Fire An abortionist does not have to be a liscenced doctor. It just so happens most of them are. I thought that they have to be a liscenced doctor before praticing medicine or preforming any procedures? Though I find it ironic that their job is to end the life of the fetus when doctors are suppost to take that oath not to harm others and do all they can to save lives. I guess they don't take that oath since their different from other doctors.
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:12 am
Tiger of the Fire An abortionist does not have to be a liscenced doctor. It just so happens most of them are. Really? Not that I don't believe you, but I was wondering if you had a link or something about this (I don't care if it's a Pro-Life site). I haven't come across any information one way or the other about this, and Google didn't bring up anything useful when I looked (must have looked up the wrong thing).
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:14 am
Erasmas I could've sworn I was kidding. Geez. Sorry. Kidding or not, it would be really great if you could contribute to the thread, by actually stating your opinion/moral beliefs/ethical stance/logical argument about abortion. If you have any of those. *wink*
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Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:32 am
rolleyes OK. Make an ED thread and tell everybody to literally ignore all the whacked-out, hormonal, overly-emotional women in the Abortion Debate Thread who can't help being assholes when they're not getting their way.
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Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:20 am
Erasmas, please be more direct when answering questions. Anyway: Quote: Autonomy: the duty to maximize the individual's right to make his or her own decisions. Beneficence: the duty to do good both individually and for all. Confidentiality: the duty to respect privacy of information and action. Equality: the duty to view all people as moral equals. Finality: the duty to take action that may override the demands of law, religion, and social customs. Justice: the duty to treat all fairly, distributing the risks and benefits equally. Nonmaleficence: the duty to cause no harm, both individually and for all. Understanding/Tolerance: the duty to understand and to accept other viewpoints if reason dictates doing so is warranted. Publicity: the duty to take actions based on ethical standards that must be known and recognized by all who are involved. Respect for persons: the duty to honor others, their rights, and their responsibilities. Showing respect others implies that we do not treat them as a mere means to our end. Universality: the duty to take actions that hold for everyone, regardless of time, place, or people involved. This concept is similar to the Categorical Imperative. Veracity: the duty to tell the truth. This is a list closer to the ones I was taught in my Bioethics class. Off the top of my head they were, from this list: Autonomy, Beneficence, Maleficence, Justice, Voluntariness, Justice, One pertaining to informing the patient (it had a single word), and Patronizing? It's been so long! I wish I had my notebook with me but it's back at home. Anyway I think it's a good list to measure different things by. In particular, the book we had barely touched upon Justice but I find that's often the chief concern of many people in Ethics debates. It's just interesting.
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