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HistoryWak
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:28 am


This is from the website http://www.audioholics.com/ It is a really good site for all of you technology buffs. This talks about the marketing PS3 for Blu-ray and such so this relates to gaming.

Quote:
10 Reasons Why High Definition DVD Formats Have Already Failed

I'm not typically a doom and gloom kind of guy - really, I'm rather optimistic. But this pending format release/war is simply the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a long time. The hype machine is entirely enthusiast-created and since that day I realized Steve Jobs could sell a fart provided he sued a public Mac forum for talking about it before its release, I began to understand the power of public mania.

There are a number of reasons why the new high definition DVD formats have already failed and I'll gladly go over some of them in this article. I am not a soothsayer, but I do study the industry - and at times, sit back and take assessment of what's happening from both a consumer and manufacturer perspective.

Without any further ado, here are the reasons HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc will never turn into the dominant formats for digital media viewing:

1. Nobody likes false starts

With the debut of HD DVD at an underwhelming 720p/1080i, coupled with a buggy interface and a transport that makes boiling water seem like a speedy event, the entrance of high definition DVD into the mainstream came out of the starting gate lame and hobbled. For Toshiba to release a player that didn't support true HD at 1080p (even though the software does), and with no lossless audio format to accompany the video track, the high definition wave was more of a ripple. Add to this the delay of HDMI 1.3, lack of market penetration and supply, and a dearth amount of software titles and you have a very unimpressive product launch.

2. Format Wars Don't Sell Players

The only reason Sony's Playstation, Microsoft's Xbox and the Nintendo GameCube can sell so well simultaneously is because of the prevalence of excellent software titles. People want to buy the hardware just so they can play the software. This is not a format war - it is choice, just like Chevy and Ford (and just like the gaming systems, some people have one of each). The high definition DVD formats, however are really just the same source material packaged in two different wrappers- not to provide choice, mind you, but because the two camps simply are too greedy to combine forces, and not innovative enough to drive two truly separate products successfully. Take careful note - a format war is NOT competition, it is a hindrance and the bane of high definition DVDs.

3. HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology

Consumers came over in droves when CDs were released back in 1982. The new format offered not only a new digital media, but also a way to instantly access tracks across an entire "album". Convenience, not technology, drove this format to almost instant consumer adoption. Fast forward a bit to 1997 when the first DVD player was released. Again, convenience, not technology, drove people to the market en masse. Unlike VHS tapes, the new DVD format was smaller, easily navigated and would not wear down over time like existing tape-based formats. Heck, the concept of a shiny plastic disc was new - and quite frankly, it was the coolest thing to hit the technological shelf since solid state technology. In comparison, the high definition DVD formats, save the color of the business side of the disc, look exactly the same… and consumer confusion will surely follow.

What do the new high definition DVD formats offer consumers over DVD? Technology and more storage. Is this enough? Not on your life. Consumers, most of whom rarely know how to properly configure their players or home theater systems, are perfectly content with their current DVD players (and indeed some have just jumped on board to DVD in the last several years). While the potential for more extras and alternate endings exists due to increased storage on the new media, there is no compelling reason for consumers to migrate over to the new high definition DVD formats in large numbers.

4. Studios are Conservative, Greedy and Unmotivated

Studios are so conservative in their practices as to consistently miss out on market advances - even those that can make them money (ie. Why is a computer company running the world's most successful online music store?) The studios are not jumping on board the high definition DVD bandwagon just yet - and you can see the lack of titles to prove it. If the movie studios decided that HD DVD or Blu-ray (or both) was to be the next dominant format, it need only to flood the market with software titles and present a plan to roll back on DVD production over the next 10 years. Even though this would grant them the secure format that they seem to want (HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs promise to be much harder to rip or duplicate) there is no indication in the industry that this is taking place or even in the works. The studios are making money hand over fist with DVD they cannot seem to bring themselves to seriously initiate a new, unproven technology - even if it saves them from some other copyright headaches.

Add to this the fact that new titles are coming out at $30 a pop (and this down from an initial $35/title) and you have a really hard sell for consumers who are used to $15 titles at Wal-mart and the large electronics chains.

5. Playstation 3 Cannot Save the World

We have consistently heard it said that the Playstation3 will "jump start" the market by flooding it with millions of gaming systems capable of handling Blu-ray Disc software. The problem with this theory is that the PS3 is not being marketed as a home theater component and, if current installations prove the rule, most will not be situated in the average consumer's living room. The result is that the PS3 will primarily be a *gasp* gaming system. Maybe I have a more traditional group of parents in my association of friends, but, taking into account #4 above, I do not think that Blu-ray will make any major leaps forward in market penetration as a home video format - at least not anytime soon.

History is bearing this out, as the HTPC market, though driven hard by such manufacturers as Microsoft, Dell and HP, has struggled to find a place in the living room. Nearly every gaming system of the past: PS2, Xbox, and even the legendary 3DO system have been touted as "set-top boxes" but in reality find themselves situated in more "gaming-centric" environments playing… you guessed it, games.

6. Those Who Ignore History…

For years we've heard about the evils of MP3 and illegal downloading. All the while the RIAA and music industry had two formats that could have prevented any illegal copying - at least for all but the most dedicated crackers: DVD-Audio and SACD. These formats proved to be higher quality than CD, presented much enhanced copy protection schemes and were easily used as alternative formats to CD. Yet both formats failed miserably to achieve any significant market penetration. Why? Without an artificial "shove" from the record industry - which never materialized - technology alone is never enough to push a new format into the hands of consumers. In terms of convenience and ease of use, DVD-Audio and SACD offered nothing to consumers. In fact, they made listening to music more complex, since most hardware was unable to correctly decode and provide adequate bass management for the new formats.

Could these formats have succeeded? Absolutely. If the recording industry had presented a plan to phase out CDs and the "format war" had been avoided (simply by the industry picking one format over the other) we would all be using DVD-Audio players and illegal downloadable music would be mostly confined to analogue rips or older music. Is this a stretch? Perhaps, but only because history shows us that corporate greed causes most companies to miss the long term economical gains over a short term loss of licensing revenues.

7. People Want Technology that's 15 Minutes Ahead of Its Time

For many people, getting into HDTV is all about the widescreen and being able to see their DVDs with more clarity than ever before. When Billy Bob comes home with his new high definition 720p display, the difference between that and his older SD TV is amazing - at least when he's watching DVDs. You see, that's the problem - and it's two-fold. While most consumers are still getting into the HDTV craze, they're already impressed. And the difference between SD TV and HDTV is more amazing than the difference between 480p DVDs and 1080i downrezzed high definition discs.

The other side of the coin is the lack of HD content available on TV - and this is a biggie. While Billy Bob is impressed by his DVD player, he is dumbfounded by his cable TV - which actually looks worse than it did on his old set (mostly because it's bigger). You see, nobody told Billy Bob that he'd have to get an antenna or subscribe to HD service from his cable/satellite provider. He was also not told that most of his favorite shows (Billy likes sitcoms and the Sci-Fi Channel) aren't yet available in HD, regardless of technology or service provider. As a result, many Americans are underwhelmed or feel like they got burned by HDTV. The last thing they're going to do is rush out and buy the next greatest thing.

8. Enthusiasts Are Getting Tired (and Smarter)
While some home theater audio- and videophiles have the money and inclination to rush out and buy the latest and greatest toys as soon as they are available, many more are becoming more cautious. Burned by 8-track, laserdisc, SACD, and DVD-Audio (and possibly soon non-HDCP HDTV) - these war-weary consumers are going to think long and hard before jumping onto any new technological bandwagons. This leaves a shrunken market of even the bleeding-edge consumers, and that means even less sales to early-adopters.

9. A Skeptical News Media Doesn't Help

I'll admit it, we're part of the "problem" (though I'd like to think we're saving consumers from making the next big mistake). An increasingly skeptical news media isn't buying into the hype of HD DVD and Blu-ray, especially not after wasting millions of editorial words on DVD-Audio and SACD, only to watch the software and technology dwindle into obscurity. Even after almost 6 years, most consumers continue to proffer puzzled looks when these audio formats are mentioned. The new DVD formats are getting plenty of press, mind you, but with the Toshiba flop and lack of software, the fact that the Emperor has no clothes (at least not yet) is hard to avoid.

10. Broadband and IPTV to Compete?

With Verizon, AOL, Time Warner and others jumping to provide HD on-demand services for the consumer it is a very likely event that high definition DVD will be something that isn't relevant in a service-directed marketplace. Add to this Apple Computer's recent push for video downloads and we may find that consumers are far more interested in quantity, portability, and ease of use over high quality source material. Even with respect to high definition formats, downloadable files burned to consumer-supplied media may make data high definition DVDs more significant than the retail formats. This consumer model is being readied for testing in South Carolina's head-end for Time Warner Cable this year.

So, while I certainly hope for the best, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. High definition is headed for a niche market at best, not an industry takeover.

By Clint DeBoer

[ Discuss This Article in Our Forums and Give Your Opinion ]

Editor's Note: We've added some footnotes for some odd commentary we've been seeing around the net in criticism of some of our article's statements.

*VCRs took from 1976 (introduction) until the 80s and 90s to become widespread in consumer market. Even though there was initially a "format war" there was nothing like it at the time for consumers. Even so, it took over 10 years to hit truly mass market levels. VHS had (eventually) COMPLETE industry support.

*The audio cassette was introduced in ~1963. It didn't peak until the 80s (when it actually overtook LP sales ). The cassette format had COMPLETE industry support.

*CD was introduced in ~1983. By 1986 there were 3 million players sold in the US and 53 million CDs. By 1988 it outsold LP. There was no real format war and the CD had COMPLETE industry support.

*DVD took over VHS in 2003 - it was introduced in ~1997. By 1998 over 1 million players had been sold in the US. By 1999 player prices dropped below $300. There was no real format war (to speak of) and the DVD had COMPLETE industry support.

*Component output for HD-DVD beyond 480p is up to the discretion of the content providers . It is on a PER DISC basis. I was personally told at CES that this is likely temporary and future discs will be locked down after HDMI 1.3 and 1080p outputs are released... As you apparently can't upconvert CSS-encrypted DVDs past 480p on these players, it is a mystery why certain consumers believe all the new HD discs will continue to be upconvertable via component.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:21 am


This seems a bit dumb to try to say though, DVD cannot last forever, and the internet isn't secure enough, nor is the average storage capacity large enough for a download based industry to take over.

The format war is absurd, Sony and Toshiba need to come to a compromise so that they don't splinter the market more than they already have.

Part-Time Viking


Transatlantic Ace

Shy Genius

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:03 am


I agree Viking.

Sony is great at ******** up the market.

The sad thing is, in the end, consumers probably won't have a choice. Whoever wins is whoever signed the most contracts/deals/what have you.

After Blu-Ray signed on with Blockbuster, HD went on and signed with Paramount Pictures.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:05 am


Ace Paladin
I agree Viking.

Sony is great at ******** up the market.

The sad thing is, in the end, consumers probably won't have a choice. Whoever wins is whoever signed the most contracts/deals/what have you.

After Blu-Ray signed on with Blockbuster, HD went on and signed with Paramount Pictures.
HD Bought out a 18 month contract with Viacom.

Pissing off some pretty important film makers like Spielberg and Bay.

Part-Time Viking


Lord0din69

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:29 pm


Part-Time Viking
The format war is absurd, Sony and Toshiba need to come to a compromise so that they don't splinter the market more than they already have.


Format war is absurd, because of how much money you can get if your format reaches the top

Simply look at the format issues we still have for digital cameras
my older digital camera used compact flash
my newer one uses xd card
seriously they are making devices thats a "10-in-1 card reader" what the crap is that
why do I need to buy something to read 10 different storage devices that does the same thing! standardize it people, but who sets the standard?

it is only convention that we come by a lot of the things that are standard now. why have a RJ-45 cable for an ethernet cable when it doesn't even use all the wires provided? why that shape? did you know it used to be one huge a** round wire that looked like a giant s-video cable?

however, not everything is simply decided by some all mighty person.
hd-dvd and blu-ray uses different methods in data storage giving them obviously different results. otherwise why bother fighting over it...
now the thing is not what's better technology, but what is more convenient to the produces. is it cheaper? is it easier to make? how long does it take to make? and so forth

better technology is not always the best solution

Now as far as how hd-dvd and blu-ray will fair in the market,
i see no reason that these storage devices will both fail
there is a demand for hd quality movies and tv-show and what not
and the only way now a days to store it is on hd-dvd or blu-ray

sure technology is not perfect, but its better than nothing

storing it on a dvd is simply a loss of quality that defeats the purpose of hd in the first place, have you ever tried to store an hd-tv show on a dvd or cd? the "simple" process of ripping apart and compressing the video already ruins the HD quality
what's the solution? more space, unless if you enjoy watching 10 minutes and then switching disc for the next 10 mintues

secondly, storage devices such as VHS, CDs, DVD grow in size
do you remember having to switch out CDs inbetween tv-shows or movies?
well you still do that in DVDs if whatever you're watching is big enough
its only obvious that the next format is going to hold a lot more information, so don't give bullshit that hd-storage devices will NEVER happen
its almost as ridiculous as saying "I will never need more than a gigabyte hard drive" back in early 1990s

never say never
because you'll only be proved wrong
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:17 pm


If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.

Arvis_Jaggamar
Crew


HistoryWak
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:06 am


Arvis_Jaggamar
If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.


1. Your arrogance is making you miss the point. It isn't just one side's fault for existing that the war is taking place.

2. @Viking: Tell me 1 good reason why DVD can't last forever. Because something has to take over? Did you ever here of the phrase "If some thing's not broken don't fix it?" It's been 10 years this year since DVD was introduced. (1997) It only just took over VHS in 2003. 4 Years ago! Must we replace it so soon? The average customer don't give a damn about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD nor do they want to change over yet again this soon. The average customer don't see a large advantage that DVD had over VHS. (Read the section in the first post) I don't see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking over DVD's. Something else down the road may but them two don't have enough advantage over DVDs to appeal to the average customer. At most one of them will co-exist with DVDs.

@Ace: Sony is great at ******** up the market. lol
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:45 pm


HistoryWak
Arvis_Jaggamar
If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.


1. Your arrogance is making you miss the point. It isn't just one side's fault for existing that the war is taking place.

2. @Viking: Tell me 1 good reason why DVD can't last forever. Because something has to take over? Did you ever here of the phrase "If some thing's not broken don't fix it?" It's been 10 years this year since DVD was introduced. (1997) It only just took over VHS in 2003. 4 Years ago! Must we replace it so soon? The average customer don't give a damn about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD nor do they want to change over yet again this soon. The average customer don't see a large advantage that DVD had over VHS. (Read the section in the first post) I don't see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking over DVD's. Something else down the road may but them two don't have enough advantage over DVDs to appeal to the average customer. At most one of them will co-exist with DVDs.

@Ace: Sony is great at ******** up the market. lol
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


1. He isn't missing the point, the whole war between the two wouldn't be going on if HD-DVD lost all support. In fact, if only one of them existed. The question wouldn't be "Which should I chose, DVD or Blu-ray/HD-DVD?" it would be "When should I migrate to *insert HD format disc here*?" because that would be the next thing.

2. Not enough difference? The main difference is storage space, which is a really really really important advantage because pretty much the average full-length movie takes up ALL the space of a DVD9 from what I've seen so far. And that is probably at the most compression and highest quality they can get it at. AND to top it off it's just 480x640/720. It may not seem like a big enough advantage now, but HDTV's are slowly increasing in the number of households that have them.

And eventually people will experience the difference between 480x640(480i/p) resolution on their nice HDTV and the 1920x1080(1080i/p) resolution. It's pretty easy to tell the difference that 1080i/p will have more detail. The average consumer might not care now, but once they experience it they will probably like it a lot. And do you think a DVD double layer has enough space for not? That's a flat out no.

Right now, DVD is fine, it can keep on smiling and not have to worry. But as soon as HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think it will most likely die because by then, HD will be mass produced enough to be cheap and affordable. HDTV's will be cheaper to produce as will Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

It's a big leap because even with the resolution DVD has, a average full-length movie will take up all of a double layer DVD's space.

The storage is a whole lot more and is a big advantage to me. And if you think storage is the only advantage of Blu-ray, you are mistaken. One advantage is the data of Blu-ray is closer to the surface so reading data is more practical and accurate and jitter (the angle of a disc, if it tilts just slightly when spinning in the tray. Can cause problems when reading data) isn't a problem. It's scratch resistance, smudge resistance, and dust resistance is also a whole lot better. Ensuring that your disc will be durable enough to keep unscratched and readable.

Here is a link to the site of the technology for the coating and resistance to damage of Blu-ray, specifically the page about the Scratch, Smudge, and Dust resistance: http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00100.htm

....Somewhere I belong

Solus Canis Lupus
Crew


HistoryWak
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:24 pm


Canis Lupus the LoneWolf
HistoryWak
Arvis_Jaggamar
If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.


1. Your arrogance is making you miss the point. It isn't just one side's fault for existing that the war is taking place.

2. @Viking: Tell me 1 good reason why DVD can't last forever. Because something has to take over? Did you ever here of the phrase "If some thing's not broken don't fix it?" It's been 10 years this year since DVD was introduced. (1997) It only just took over VHS in 2003. 4 Years ago! Must we replace it so soon? The average customer don't give a damn about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD nor do they want to change over yet again this soon. The average customer don't see a large advantage that DVD had over VHS. (Read the section in the first post) I don't see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking over DVD's. Something else down the road may but them two don't have enough advantage over DVDs to appeal to the average customer. At most one of them will co-exist with DVDs.

@Ace: Sony is great at ******** up the market. lol
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


1. He isn't missing the point, the whole war between the two wouldn't be going on if HD-DVD lost all support. In fact, if only one of them existed. The question wouldn't be "Which should I chose, DVD or Blu-ray/HD-DVD?" it would be "When should I migrate to *insert HD format disc here*?" because that would be the next thing.

2. Not enough difference? The main difference is storage space, which is a really really really important advantage because pretty much the average full-length movie takes up ALL the space of a DVD9 from what I've seen so far. And that is probably at the most compression and highest quality they can get it at. AND to top it off it's just 480x640/720. It may not seem like a big enough advantage now, but HDTV's are slowly increasing in the number of households that have them.

And eventually people will experience the difference between 480x640(480i/p) resolution on their nice HDTV and the 1920x1080(1080i/p) resolution. It's pretty easy to tell the difference that 1080i/p will have more detail. The average consumer might not care now, but once they experience it they will probably like it a lot. And do you think a DVD double layer has enough space for not? That's a flat out no.

Right now, DVD is fine, it can keep on smiling and not have to worry. But as soon as HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think it will most likely die because by then, HD will be mass produced enough to be cheap and affordable. HDTV's will be cheaper to produce as will Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

It's a big leap because even with the resolution DVD has, a average full-length movie will take up all of a double layer DVD's space.

The storage is a whole lot more and is a big advantage to me. And if you think storage is the only advantage of Blu-ray, you are mistaken. One advantage is the data of Blu-ray is closer to the surface so reading data is more practical and accurate and jitter (the angle of a disc, if it tilts just slightly when spinning in the tray. Can cause problems when reading data) isn't a problem. It's scratch resistance, smudge resistance, and dust resistance is also a whole lot better. Ensuring that your disc will be durable enough to keep unscratched and readable.

Here is a link to the site of the technology for the coating and resistance to damage of Blu-ray, specifically the page about the Scratch, Smudge, and Dust resistance: http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00100.htm

....Somewhere I belong


So you're saying because of more storage room (that average consumers don't give a second thought to) and durability and damage resistance (How hard is it to keep a disk from scratching) is enough reason for a format change? I've read from many sources that loading times are actually longer. Is that enough to justify for the average consumer to migrate to it? I'm not talking the handful who know and appreciate such advantages but the average consumer who can care less if the disk holds more or had more durability.

Most people don't give a damn about "What HD format should I get?" Many don't even know what HD is.

I love how you assume that Blu-Ray will win over HD-DVD. The best don't always win. The market is divided and I'd see a commercial for a movie that is available on DVD and HD-DVD and then I'd see another movie available on DVD and Blu-Ray. This whole thing pisses me off. <******** both of them.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:20 pm


You want one reason why DVD can't last forever? I'll give you several.

1) Capacity is a clear and obvious one, with everything moving to High Definition now, DVD 9 and it's measly 9.4 gigs will not cut it for much longer for both movies and games. I could easily see Halo 3 benefiting greatly from having a larger capacity to put the game on, not only from a visual or cinematic standpoint, but from a content standpoint as well... Many games can benefit from larger storage capacities as well. Gears of War is rather lacking in the content department mostly due to the small capacity of DVD9.

Not just games either, movies are utilizing the fact that HDTV's are becoming cheaper too, 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound systems are coming down as well, the home theater experience is becoming more and more affordable every day. With High Definition Digital movie making taking over the only way to really fit it onto a DVD9 is too make multiple discs, and lets face it, people are lazy, it really sucks needing to switch discs in the middle of a movie (I'm looking at YOU LotR's).

Bottom line here, More storage is necessary now. DVD9's are not capable of getting any more layers added onto it effectively.

2) Technology has progressed further in the past five years than the previous thirty before it. A lot of it has to do with the internet making it's mark of the industrialized nations of the world, and with high end technology making it to the market quickly, and dropping costs nearly as fast. Having a generation of the tech savvy also does not hurt. Sure, DVD9 may not be broken, but it's certainly outdated, and will soon be obsolete.

3) Many have suggested that downloads will replace hard copies of media soon, and I just don't see that as a possibility yet, not only is the internet insecure as far as all of that goes, but the average consumers storage capacity for such is minimal at best. And Piracy is a problem, companies want to be able to protect and guarantee that people have paid for their s**t. Sure, piracy is a small problem now but if everything suddenly went downloadable than that would all go to hell real fast.

BTW, Blu-Ray is beating the pants off of HD DVD because of more support, The HD DVD camp had to BUY support rather than just get it like the Blu-Ray camp has... Another plus to the Blu-Ray side is that the company that makes it is also one of the biggest and most powerful movie publishing/producing companies in the world, Toshiba is not.

Companies like Universal which for some reason or another refuse to have anything to do with Sony was the only company siding with HD DVD from the get-go, Viacom only joined up because their CEO is classic Hollywood and only speaks money.

Your right though, the average consumer is not HD yet, but that is largely due to it still being kinda pricey, but that will change.

Part-Time Viking


HistoryWak
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:31 pm


Part-Time Viking
You want one reason why DVD can't last forever? I'll give you several.

1) Capacity is a clear and obvious one, with everything moving to High Definition now, DVD 9 and it's measly 9.4 gigs will not cut it for much longer for both movies and games. I could easily see Halo 3 benefiting greatly from having a larger capacity to put the game on, not only from a visual or cinematic standpoint, but from a content standpoint as well... Many games can benefit from larger storage capacities as well. Gears of War is rather lacking in the content department mostly due to the small capacity of DVD9.

Not just games either, movies are utilizing the fact that HDTV's are becoming cheaper too, 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound systems are coming down as well, the home theater experience is becoming more and more affordable every day. With High Definition Digital movie making taking over the only way to really fit it onto a DVD9 is too make multiple discs, and lets face it, people are lazy, it really sucks needing to switch discs in the middle of a movie (I'm looking at YOU LotR's).

Bottom line here, More storage is necessary now. DVD9's are not capable of getting any more layers added onto it effectively.

2) Technology has progressed further in the past five years than the previous thirty before it. A lot of it has to do with the internet making it's mark of the industrialized nations of the world, and with high end technology making it to the market quickly, and dropping costs nearly as fast. Having a generation of the tech savvy also does not hurt. Sure, DVD9 may not be broken, but it's certainly outdated, and will soon be obsolete.

3) Many have suggested that downloads will replace hard copies of media soon, and I just don't see that as a possibility yet, not only is the internet insecure as far as all of that goes, but the average consumers storage capacity for such is minimal at best. And Piracy is a problem, companies want to be able to protect and guarantee that people have paid for their s**t. Sure, piracy is a small problem now but if everything suddenly went downloadable than that would all go to hell real fast.

BTW, Blu-Ray is beating the pants off of HD DVD because of more support, The HD DVD camp had to BUY support rather than just get it like the Blu-Ray camp has... Another plus to the Blu-Ray side is that the company that makes it is also one of the biggest and most powerful movie publishing/producing companies in the world, Toshiba is not.

Companies like Universal which for some reason or another refuse to have anything to do with Sony was the only company siding with HD DVD from the get-go, Viacom only joined up because their CEO is classic Hollywood and only speaks money.

Your right though, the average consumer is not HD yet, but that is largely due to it still being kinda pricey, but that will change.


I'll pray to God that 3 never ever happens!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:41 pm


HistoryWak
Canis Lupus the LoneWolf
HistoryWak
Arvis_Jaggamar
If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.


1. Your arrogance is making you miss the point. It isn't just one side's fault for existing that the war is taking place.

2. @Viking: Tell me 1 good reason why DVD can't last forever. Because something has to take over? Did you ever here of the phrase "If some thing's not broken don't fix it?" It's been 10 years this year since DVD was introduced. (1997) It only just took over VHS in 2003. 4 Years ago! Must we replace it so soon? The average customer don't give a damn about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD nor do they want to change over yet again this soon. The average customer don't see a large advantage that DVD had over VHS. (Read the section in the first post) I don't see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking over DVD's. Something else down the road may but them two don't have enough advantage over DVDs to appeal to the average customer. At most one of them will co-exist with DVDs.

@Ace: Sony is great at ******** up the market. lol
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


1. He isn't missing the point, the whole war between the two wouldn't be going on if HD-DVD lost all support. In fact, if only one of them existed. The question wouldn't be "Which should I chose, DVD or Blu-ray/HD-DVD?" it would be "When should I migrate to *insert HD format disc here*?" because that would be the next thing.

2. Not enough difference? The main difference is storage space, which is a really really really important advantage because pretty much the average full-length movie takes up ALL the space of a DVD9 from what I've seen so far. And that is probably at the most compression and highest quality they can get it at. AND to top it off it's just 480x640/720. It may not seem like a big enough advantage now, but HDTV's are slowly increasing in the number of households that have them.

And eventually people will experience the difference between 480x640(480i/p) resolution on their nice HDTV and the 1920x1080(1080i/p) resolution. It's pretty easy to tell the difference that 1080i/p will have more detail. The average consumer might not care now, but once they experience it they will probably like it a lot. And do you think a DVD double layer has enough space for not? That's a flat out no.

Right now, DVD is fine, it can keep on smiling and not have to worry. But as soon as HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think it will most likely die because by then, HD will be mass produced enough to be cheap and affordable. HDTV's will be cheaper to produce as will Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

It's a big leap because even with the resolution DVD has, a average full-length movie will take up all of a double layer DVD's space.

The storage is a whole lot more and is a big advantage to me. And if you think storage is the only advantage of Blu-ray, you are mistaken. One advantage is the data of Blu-ray is closer to the surface so reading data is more practical and accurate and jitter (the angle of a disc, if it tilts just slightly when spinning in the tray. Can cause problems when reading data) isn't a problem. It's scratch resistance, smudge resistance, and dust resistance is also a whole lot better. Ensuring that your disc will be durable enough to keep unscratched and readable.

Here is a link to the site of the technology for the coating and resistance to damage of Blu-ray, specifically the page about the Scratch, Smudge, and Dust resistance: http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00100.htm

....Somewhere I belong


So you're saying because of more storage room (that average consumers don't give a second thought to) and durability and damage resistance (How hard is it to keep a disk from scratching) is enough reason for a format change? I've read from many sources that loading times are actually longer. Is that enough to justify for the average consumer to migrate to it? I'm not talking the handful who know and appreciate such advantages but the average consumer who can care less if the disk holds more or had more durability.

Most people don't give a damn about "What HD format should I get?" Many don't even know what HD is.

I love how you assume that Blu-Ray will win over HD-DVD. The best don't always win. The market is divided and I'd see a commercial for a movie that is available on DVD and HD-DVD and then I'd see another movie available on DVD and Blu-Ray. This whole thing pisses me off. <******** both of them.
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


You're not taking the time to understand why more storage room is good for movies. Did you ignore the whole "the average-full length movie (in other words the average DVD since like 99% of them are movies) takes up ALL the space of a double-layer DVD"? For one to be skeptical about compression and quality, you don't seem to give a damn about the compression of video. Because that's what they have to do to get a lot of movies to fit on even double-layer DVD's. And I bet you a lot have to reduce the quality to some extent to fit on the DVD.

The whole dumbing down of Audio on CD's thing? Same thing with DVD's, quality is pretty much being dumbed down. DVD is already not enough space for a high quality movie, even at the resolution it uses.

The average consumer might not give a damn what a byte is, but I'm sure movie companies are relieved quality doesn't have to be sacrificed because of storage, in fact the quality can be better. Like I said, once HDTV's are in a majority of households, DVD will be obsolete. It's barely enough to hold movies at the resolution they are for DVD's let alone a higher resolution.

You're also missing my point that once consumers experience the difference between them, they'll care. They don't give a damn about it now because they don't know how much of a difference the resolution makes, and how much better the quality is. If they experience it, they will probably be wanting it over DVD.

The loading times? If you mean transfer rate, that's BS. Like I said, on Blu-ray, the data is actually closer to the surface and it's the same size as a DVD diameter wise, so more data is closer together on the disc. Imagine little pits and bumps. Blu-ray and HD-DVD have more of them and the discs are the same size as DVD's. So the bumps and pits on them are a lot smaller and closer together. That means the laser passes by a lot more of them in a certain amount of time than on a DVD. The transfer rate of data is actually faster than a DVD.

The loading times are probably a result of the fact that compression is not needed for movies, they're full quality, and being in a higher resolution just makes the files bigger. Now, I doubt the loading times are drastically longer. If it's only like a few seconds or something, I doubt much consumers are going to care.

And as for the durability. Would you like to go through more work just to keep a disc in good condition or feel content knowing that the disc won't damage as easily as a DVD would? Also, imagine how much better it would be for lots of families and parents. You think my little brother puts DVD's back in their cases after he's done with them? Pfft, no. Trust me, lots of little kids and lazy teenagers(like myself xd ) will leave discs out, and DVD's get damaged just from sitting out in the open.

Durability I think is a REAL good advantage. That was one of the advantages of DVD over VHS, it was a lot more durable and you wouldn't have to worry about tape.

And I assume because it's just the logical choice. It's not an opinion, technology wise Blu-ray IS superior to HD-DVD. It's a fact. There's just no way around that. And Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD by a longshot, it has more support. Toshiba(or whoever is leading HD-DVD) is just delaying HD-DVD's demise by keeping it alive. They're pretty much the same price now. If there's something better than something else and they're the same price, you're going to take the better one.

Do you think multi-ones are helping any either? Look at 300, it is on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I bet you the Blu-ray version gets more sales.


It may not be enough for a change to you, but when HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think a lot of people will be convinced to change. Let me ask you. What advantages would be enough for you to change from DVD?

....Somewhere I belong

Solus Canis Lupus
Crew


HistoryWak
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:54 pm


Canis Lupus the LoneWolf
HistoryWak
Canis Lupus the LoneWolf
HistoryWak
Arvis_Jaggamar
If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.


1. Your arrogance is making you miss the point. It isn't just one side's fault for existing that the war is taking place.

2. @Viking: Tell me 1 good reason why DVD can't last forever. Because something has to take over? Did you ever here of the phrase "If some thing's not broken don't fix it?" It's been 10 years this year since DVD was introduced. (1997) It only just took over VHS in 2003. 4 Years ago! Must we replace it so soon? The average customer don't give a damn about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD nor do they want to change over yet again this soon. The average customer don't see a large advantage that DVD had over VHS. (Read the section in the first post) I don't see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking over DVD's. Something else down the road may but them two don't have enough advantage over DVDs to appeal to the average customer. At most one of them will co-exist with DVDs.

@Ace: Sony is great at ******** up the market. lol
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


1. He isn't missing the point, the whole war between the two wouldn't be going on if HD-DVD lost all support. In fact, if only one of them existed. The question wouldn't be "Which should I chose, DVD or Blu-ray/HD-DVD?" it would be "When should I migrate to *insert HD format disc here*?" because that would be the next thing.

2. Not enough difference? The main difference is storage space, which is a really really really important advantage because pretty much the average full-length movie takes up ALL the space of a DVD9 from what I've seen so far. And that is probably at the most compression and highest quality they can get it at. AND to top it off it's just 480x640/720. It may not seem like a big enough advantage now, but HDTV's are slowly increasing in the number of households that have them.

And eventually people will experience the difference between 480x640(480i/p) resolution on their nice HDTV and the 1920x1080(1080i/p) resolution. It's pretty easy to tell the difference that 1080i/p will have more detail. The average consumer might not care now, but once they experience it they will probably like it a lot. And do you think a DVD double layer has enough space for not? That's a flat out no.

Right now, DVD is fine, it can keep on smiling and not have to worry. But as soon as HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think it will most likely die because by then, HD will be mass produced enough to be cheap and affordable. HDTV's will be cheaper to produce as will Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

It's a big leap because even with the resolution DVD has, a average full-length movie will take up all of a double layer DVD's space.

The storage is a whole lot more and is a big advantage to me. And if you think storage is the only advantage of Blu-ray, you are mistaken. One advantage is the data of Blu-ray is closer to the surface so reading data is more practical and accurate and jitter (the angle of a disc, if it tilts just slightly when spinning in the tray. Can cause problems when reading data) isn't a problem. It's scratch resistance, smudge resistance, and dust resistance is also a whole lot better. Ensuring that your disc will be durable enough to keep unscratched and readable.

Here is a link to the site of the technology for the coating and resistance to damage of Blu-ray, specifically the page about the Scratch, Smudge, and Dust resistance: http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00100.htm

....Somewhere I belong


So you're saying because of more storage room (that average consumers don't give a second thought to) and durability and damage resistance (How hard is it to keep a disk from scratching) is enough reason for a format change? I've read from many sources that loading times are actually longer. Is that enough to justify for the average consumer to migrate to it? I'm not talking the handful who know and appreciate such advantages but the average consumer who can care less if the disk holds more or had more durability.

Most people don't give a damn about "What HD format should I get?" Many don't even know what HD is.

I love how you assume that Blu-Ray will win over HD-DVD. The best don't always win. The market is divided and I'd see a commercial for a movie that is available on DVD and HD-DVD and then I'd see another movie available on DVD and Blu-Ray. This whole thing pisses me off. <******** both of them.
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


You're not taking the time to understand why more storage room is good for movies. Did you ignore the whole "the average-full length movie (in other words the average DVD since like 99% of them are movies) takes up ALL the space of a double-layer DVD"? For one to be skeptical about compression and quality, you don't seem to give a damn about the compression of video. Because that's what they have to do to get a lot of movies to fit on even double-layer DVD's. And I bet you a lot have to reduce the quality to some extent to fit on the DVD.

The whole dumbing down of Audio on CD's thing? Same thing with DVD's, quality is pretty much being dumbed down. DVD is already not enough space for a high quality movie, even at the resolution it uses.

The average consumer might not give a damn what a byte is, but I'm sure movie companies are relieved quality doesn't have to be sacrificed because of storage, in fact the quality can be better. Like I said, once HDTV's are in a majority of households, DVD will be obsolete. It's barely enough to hold movies at the resolution they are for DVD's let alone a higher resolution.

You're also missing my point that once consumers experience the difference between them, they'll care. They don't give a damn about it now because they don't know how much of a difference the resolution makes, and how much better the quality is. If they experience it, they will probably be wanting it over DVD.

The loading times? If you mean transfer rate, that's BS. Like I said, on Blu-ray, the data is actually closer to the surface and it's the same size as a DVD diameter wise, so more data is closer together on the disc. Imagine little pits and bumps. Blu-ray and HD-DVD have more of them and the discs are the same size as DVD's. So the bumps and pits on them are a lot smaller and closer together. That means the laser passes by a lot more of them in a certain amount of time than on a DVD. The transfer rate of data is actually faster than a DVD.

The loading times are probably a result of the fact that compression is not needed for movies, they're full quality, and being in a higher resolution just makes the files bigger. Now, I doubt the loading times are drastically longer. If it's only like a few seconds or something, I doubt much consumers are going to care.

And as for the durability. Would you like to go through more work just to keep a disc in good condition or feel content knowing that the disc won't damage as easily as a DVD would? Also, imagine how much better it would be for lots of families and parents. You think my little brother puts DVD's back in their cases after he's done with them? Pfft, no. Trust me, lots of little kids and lazy teenagers(like myself xd ) will leave discs out, and DVD's get damaged just from sitting out in the open.

Durability I think is a REAL good advantage. That was one of the advantages of DVD over VHS, it was a lot more durable and you wouldn't have to worry about tape.

And I assume because it's just the logical choice. It's not an opinion, technology wise Blu-ray IS superior to HD-DVD. It's a fact. There's just no way around that. And Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD by a longshot, it has more support. Toshiba(or whoever is leading HD-DVD) is just delaying HD-DVD's demise by keeping it alive. They're pretty much the same price now. If there's something better than something else and they're the same price, you're going to take the better one.

Do you think multi-ones are helping any either? Look at 300, it is on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I bet you the Blu-ray version gets more sales.


It may not be enough for a change to you, but when HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think a lot of people will be convinced to change. Let me ask you. What advantages would be enough for you to change from DVD?

....Somewhere I belong


I don't know. For me I thought it was at it's peak. DVD got rid of the flaws that VHS's had. I didn't think there was anything left. I believed that if it isn't broken don't fix it. You made good points and I'm starting to see it. I just hate ******** changing that's all...

This article here I actually found while looking for an article I needed in physics. It made some good arguments so I quoted it to see your responses.

Enthusiasts were all hyped about SACD's a few years ago and look what happened. It didn't catch on...

People were sure that was going to replace CD's and it didn't. They were buying the special players for it and everything. That's why I'm doubtful about this.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:12 pm


HistoryWak
Part-Time Viking
You want one reason why DVD can't last forever? I'll give you several.

1) Capacity is a clear and obvious one, with everything moving to High Definition now, DVD 9 and it's measly 9.4 gigs will not cut it for much longer for both movies and games. I could easily see Halo 3 benefiting greatly from having a larger capacity to put the game on, not only from a visual or cinematic standpoint, but from a content standpoint as well... Many games can benefit from larger storage capacities as well. Gears of War is rather lacking in the content department mostly due to the small capacity of DVD9.

Not just games either, movies are utilizing the fact that HDTV's are becoming cheaper too, 5.1 and 7.1 surround sound systems are coming down as well, the home theater experience is becoming more and more affordable every day. With High Definition Digital movie making taking over the only way to really fit it onto a DVD9 is too make multiple discs, and lets face it, people are lazy, it really sucks needing to switch discs in the middle of a movie (I'm looking at YOU LotR's).

Bottom line here, More storage is necessary now. DVD9's are not capable of getting any more layers added onto it effectively.

2) Technology has progressed further in the past five years than the previous thirty before it. A lot of it has to do with the internet making it's mark of the industrialized nations of the world, and with high end technology making it to the market quickly, and dropping costs nearly as fast. Having a generation of the tech savvy also does not hurt. Sure, DVD9 may not be broken, but it's certainly outdated, and will soon be obsolete.

3) Many have suggested that downloads will replace hard copies of media soon, and I just don't see that as a possibility yet, not only is the internet insecure as far as all of that goes, but the average consumers storage capacity for such is minimal at best. And Piracy is a problem, companies want to be able to protect and guarantee that people have paid for their s**t. Sure, piracy is a small problem now but if everything suddenly went downloadable than that would all go to hell real fast.

BTW, Blu-Ray is beating the pants off of HD DVD because of more support, The HD DVD camp had to BUY support rather than just get it like the Blu-Ray camp has... Another plus to the Blu-Ray side is that the company that makes it is also one of the biggest and most powerful movie publishing/producing companies in the world, Toshiba is not.

Companies like Universal which for some reason or another refuse to have anything to do with Sony was the only company siding with HD DVD from the get-go, Viacom only joined up because their CEO is classic Hollywood and only speaks money.

Your right though, the average consumer is not HD yet, but that is largely due to it still being kinda pricey, but that will change.


I'll pray to God that 3 never ever happens!
Don't get me wrong, I forsee downloads being the key future for music, but for movies and games, it's just not likely in the near future...

So were my reasons good enough?

Part-Time Viking


Solus Canis Lupus
Crew

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:16 pm


HistoryWak
Canis Lupus the LoneWolf
HistoryWak
Canis Lupus the LoneWolf
HistoryWak
Arvis_Jaggamar
If both fomrats cost the same and one is clearly technologically superior, then what's the problem? The fact that HD-DVD has any support at all is what is turning this whole "war" into an unnecessary and ultimately off-putting public marketing debacle.


1. Your arrogance is making you miss the point. It isn't just one side's fault for existing that the war is taking place.

2. @Viking: Tell me 1 good reason why DVD can't last forever. Because something has to take over? Did you ever here of the phrase "If some thing's not broken don't fix it?" It's been 10 years this year since DVD was introduced. (1997) It only just took over VHS in 2003. 4 Years ago! Must we replace it so soon? The average customer don't give a damn about Blu-Ray and HD-DVD nor do they want to change over yet again this soon. The average customer don't see a large advantage that DVD had over VHS. (Read the section in the first post) I don't see Blu-Ray or HD-DVD taking over DVD's. Something else down the road may but them two don't have enough advantage over DVDs to appeal to the average customer. At most one of them will co-exist with DVDs.

@Ace: Sony is great at ******** up the market. lol
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


1. He isn't missing the point, the whole war between the two wouldn't be going on if HD-DVD lost all support. In fact, if only one of them existed. The question wouldn't be "Which should I chose, DVD or Blu-ray/HD-DVD?" it would be "When should I migrate to *insert HD format disc here*?" because that would be the next thing.

2. Not enough difference? The main difference is storage space, which is a really really really important advantage because pretty much the average full-length movie takes up ALL the space of a DVD9 from what I've seen so far. And that is probably at the most compression and highest quality they can get it at. AND to top it off it's just 480x640/720. It may not seem like a big enough advantage now, but HDTV's are slowly increasing in the number of households that have them.

And eventually people will experience the difference between 480x640(480i/p) resolution on their nice HDTV and the 1920x1080(1080i/p) resolution. It's pretty easy to tell the difference that 1080i/p will have more detail. The average consumer might not care now, but once they experience it they will probably like it a lot. And do you think a DVD double layer has enough space for not? That's a flat out no.

Right now, DVD is fine, it can keep on smiling and not have to worry. But as soon as HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think it will most likely die because by then, HD will be mass produced enough to be cheap and affordable. HDTV's will be cheaper to produce as will Blu-ray and HD-DVD.

It's a big leap because even with the resolution DVD has, a average full-length movie will take up all of a double layer DVD's space.

The storage is a whole lot more and is a big advantage to me. And if you think storage is the only advantage of Blu-ray, you are mistaken. One advantage is the data of Blu-ray is closer to the surface so reading data is more practical and accurate and jitter (the angle of a disc, if it tilts just slightly when spinning in the tray. Can cause problems when reading data) isn't a problem. It's scratch resistance, smudge resistance, and dust resistance is also a whole lot better. Ensuring that your disc will be durable enough to keep unscratched and readable.

Here is a link to the site of the technology for the coating and resistance to damage of Blu-ray, specifically the page about the Scratch, Smudge, and Dust resistance: http://www.durabis.com/en/tec00100.htm

....Somewhere I belong


So you're saying because of more storage room (that average consumers don't give a second thought to) and durability and damage resistance (How hard is it to keep a disk from scratching) is enough reason for a format change? I've read from many sources that loading times are actually longer. Is that enough to justify for the average consumer to migrate to it? I'm not talking the handful who know and appreciate such advantages but the average consumer who can care less if the disk holds more or had more durability.

Most people don't give a damn about "What HD format should I get?" Many don't even know what HD is.

I love how you assume that Blu-Ray will win over HD-DVD. The best don't always win. The market is divided and I'd see a commercial for a movie that is available on DVD and HD-DVD and then I'd see another movie available on DVD and Blu-Ray. This whole thing pisses me off. <******** both of them.
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


You're not taking the time to understand why more storage room is good for movies. Did you ignore the whole "the average-full length movie (in other words the average DVD since like 99% of them are movies) takes up ALL the space of a double-layer DVD"? For one to be skeptical about compression and quality, you don't seem to give a damn about the compression of video. Because that's what they have to do to get a lot of movies to fit on even double-layer DVD's. And I bet you a lot have to reduce the quality to some extent to fit on the DVD.

The whole dumbing down of Audio on CD's thing? Same thing with DVD's, quality is pretty much being dumbed down. DVD is already not enough space for a high quality movie, even at the resolution it uses.

The average consumer might not give a damn what a byte is, but I'm sure movie companies are relieved quality doesn't have to be sacrificed because of storage, in fact the quality can be better. Like I said, once HDTV's are in a majority of households, DVD will be obsolete. It's barely enough to hold movies at the resolution they are for DVD's let alone a higher resolution.

You're also missing my point that once consumers experience the difference between them, they'll care. They don't give a damn about it now because they don't know how much of a difference the resolution makes, and how much better the quality is. If they experience it, they will probably be wanting it over DVD.

The loading times? If you mean transfer rate, that's BS. Like I said, on Blu-ray, the data is actually closer to the surface and it's the same size as a DVD diameter wise, so more data is closer together on the disc. Imagine little pits and bumps. Blu-ray and HD-DVD have more of them and the discs are the same size as DVD's. So the bumps and pits on them are a lot smaller and closer together. That means the laser passes by a lot more of them in a certain amount of time than on a DVD. The transfer rate of data is actually faster than a DVD.

The loading times are probably a result of the fact that compression is not needed for movies, they're full quality, and being in a higher resolution just makes the files bigger. Now, I doubt the loading times are drastically longer. If it's only like a few seconds or something, I doubt much consumers are going to care.

And as for the durability. Would you like to go through more work just to keep a disc in good condition or feel content knowing that the disc won't damage as easily as a DVD would? Also, imagine how much better it would be for lots of families and parents. You think my little brother puts DVD's back in their cases after he's done with them? Pfft, no. Trust me, lots of little kids and lazy teenagers(like myself xd ) will leave discs out, and DVD's get damaged just from sitting out in the open.

Durability I think is a REAL good advantage. That was one of the advantages of DVD over VHS, it was a lot more durable and you wouldn't have to worry about tape.

And I assume because it's just the logical choice. It's not an opinion, technology wise Blu-ray IS superior to HD-DVD. It's a fact. There's just no way around that. And Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD by a longshot, it has more support. Toshiba(or whoever is leading HD-DVD) is just delaying HD-DVD's demise by keeping it alive. They're pretty much the same price now. If there's something better than something else and they're the same price, you're going to take the better one.

Do you think multi-ones are helping any either? Look at 300, it is on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I bet you the Blu-ray version gets more sales.


It may not be enough for a change to you, but when HDTV's are in a majority of households, I think a lot of people will be convinced to change. Let me ask you. What advantages would be enough for you to change from DVD?

....Somewhere I belong


I don't know. For me I thought it was at it's peak. DVD got rid of the flaws that VHS's had. I didn't think there was anything left. I believed that if it isn't broken don't fix it. You made good points and I'm starting to see it. I just hate ******** changing that's all...

This article here I actually found while looking for an article I needed in physics. It made some good arguments so I quoted it to see your responses.

Enthusiasts were all hyped about SACD's a few years ago and look what happened. It didn't catch on...

People were sure that was going to replace CD's and it didn't. They were buying the special players for it and everything. That's why I'm doubtful about this.
I wanna find something I've wanted all along....


It's really not all that much of a change to be honest. I don't really see it as HD Format vs DVD. I see it as DVD->Advancement. Because Blu-ray and HD-DVD aren't extremely different from DVD. It's the same concept. They're discs with data on them. And how the data is written and read is the same. They all use little pits and bumps.

They're just an extension of DVD, an improvement so to speak. Blu-ray uses of course a blue ray instead of a red ray to read discs, and it's a lot smaller and compact so more data is able to be put on the disc. And the durability was improved.

Don't see it as DVD being killed but as it being expanded upon. As for the CD's thing, I don't really know about that. But I'm going to assume HD has more support than SA had. HDTV's are out on the market and increasing in sales. HD so far has been well established, and I don't really see how the HD formats, both of them anyway, will fail.

Though that is a possibility...I think there's just too much support for it to backfire. Right now, the change probably isn't enough, but I think more people will be comfortable with changing once HD becomes more and more of a standard.

....Somewhere I belong
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