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A friend asked me to post here, outlining my beliefs, and, why I'm not overly keen on being Christian. Truth be told, I know a fair bit about Christianity (specifically Roman Catholicism, which I was raised), and I'm quite comfortable with my chosen faith. However, seeing as how my friend is a Christian, him and I have been discussing, back and forth, the different aspects of things. He's worried I'll end up in Hell, I'm worried I'll end up in Heaven. So, rather than going back and forth, he's suggested I express my thoughts here and let other people comment on them as well.

First off, I apologize if I offend anybody - that certainly isn't my intent. I've read all the rules, and have no problem complying - I don't seek to start an argument, this certainly isn't a "convert me if you can" thread, nor a "I'm better than you" thread. Quite simple take it at face value - then again, with the lengh of this post, I doubt a troll would put so much time, thought, and effort into something like this.

All that being said, allow me to properly introduce myself. I am PhaseBurn, though most call me pb or David. I was born into a Roman Catholic family, attended St. Ambrose School for 9 years, was an altar boy, and sang in choir. I went to Church every Sunday, I prayed to God every night, and I was confirmed in 8th grade. But things had already started to go down hill.

Long story short, my folks divorced when I was in 5th grade, and I spent the rest of my childhood in some down right ugly situations. I never had a drug problem, I never was a criminal, I was always the geek who was on the computer. I turned to IRC, where I met a number of people (most of whom were Christian) and they were the mentors I turned to. Inside, however, I was just not happy. It felt like God had forsaken me, had turned my whole life upside down so that I could be laughed at. I got very cynical, sarcastic, and defensive. By the time I was confirmed, I didn't care about religion any more. I was tired of being spoon-fed it by people who seemed to only want to keep me from thinking for myself. I, being the geek, did a lot of reading up on a number of things, specifically religion, and what I found made me quite ill. I'm not going to argue over the validity of any specific religion here - I'm not going to say that spiritally, any specific one is either right, or wrong. What I will, however, say is that just about every single major religion in the world has been used at some point as a tool for man to control other men, and/or sieze power.

Pope Urban II for instance, started the Crusades, by declaring "God wills it". The sheep effect obviously came into play, and a bunch of people committed murder thinking they were doing something magnificent for Christ.

The Albigenses of Souther France were accused of heresy, and the Inquisition followed suit. After 2 years of brutal killing, the Pope renewed the hunt just a few years later, and yells of "Kill them all, God will know his own" were actually recorded coming from the horde.

There were the Salem Witch trials, Anti-Semitism, and at one point, the Church decided that the only way one could confess one's sins and repent, was to buy a ticket. The Church itself has been a pawn in the power plays of mankind since shortly after its inception. The truth, however, is not in how it was used, but in how it was able to be used. Religion seems to be a form of control for the masses. Any gullible person who I tell is going to break their mother's back if they step on a crack will be seen hopping around all day trying to avoid it. Of course, this is just supersticious nonsense, and, a child's game. But open your mind and think about it. If you're a little kid, and you grow up thinking the sky is green, and the grass is blue, and everybody around you reinforces that belief for years - it's what you know to be right by everybody you trust - regardless of how wrong it is - when that little boy or girl grows up and is told the first time by somebody "No, the grass is green.", they're not going to believe them. A dozen people wouldn't convince that person at that point. But of course we all know the sky isn't green, nor the grass blue. But what if you taught a little child that if they didn't believe in God, they'd go to hell and suffer for all eternity? Everybody in that child's family believes it. So of course the kid will believe it, regardless of the truth. I won't make any claims that it isn't or is true, but lets take a non-Christian faith so I don't offend anybody. Obviously, since Christians believe that one has to believe in Jesus to be saved, the Ancient Greeks were condemned to Hell. Yet, they believed in their pantheon of gods just as strongly as christians believe in their God and Jesus Christ. Why? Because that was what they were raise to believe. Their beliefs also stated that it's inappropriate to question that belief, as well as to test their gods. The sheep effect happens when one's beliefs tell them not to question things, and then, somebody in a position of power tells those people to do something, right or wrong, and they stop thinking for themself. This is very much akin to brainwashing, and is one of the most dangerous things in the world today. Religion is responsible for spilling more blood in this world than all other reasons combined. Regardless of which religion is "right", all followers of just about any religion have 1 thing in common: they were raised to not question their beliefs, and to not think for themself. They believe strongly in their god, and so they are always on the right side no matter what. Of course, we aren't supposed to judge a religion by its followers, so, I'll move right along.

Spiritually, I find Christianity to be disheartening. I was raised to believe that Jesus died for our sins, and that gave us a choice about our life. God is all about choice. He gave Adam and Eve a choice. He gave humanity a choice by sending Jesus. He's quite famous for his choices. But are they really choices, or are we just lead to believe that they are? I strongly believe the latter. I'm not overly fond of this life - really. I'm not suicidal, and I certainly have things to live for. However, the pain and suffering in this world that I've seen and been subjected to since being born far outweighs the joy and love I've felt. I didn't exactly choose to be born (though some say I did and I just can't remember it). When I die, I don't want to go to hell (obviously), nor do I want to go to heaven. I want to simply fade to blah. Eternal life suffering or eternal life being forced to be happy. Note I say forced. I'm not a naturally happy person. I certainly have my moment, but for the most part I enjoy being cynical, sarcastic, and contemplative. "Happy" just doesn't work for me. So to artifically force me to be happy for all eternity, it seems almost as bad as hell. I'm quite happy with the notion that I'll just cease to exist. I'd sorta prefer it. But no, I have no choice in the matter. I can either go to hell and suffer, or I can go to heaven and suffer, in a prison I can't feel or touch or see. Really, heaven seems like it very well could be The Matrix.

I'm also a science person. I know that science doesn't explain everything right now - we don't have that understanding. I do believe, however, that some day, science CAN explain everything. And of course there is a small amount of faith to science, too - I've never seen an atom of hydrogen before, personally, but enough people have to assure me that it isn't a conspiracy. I believe them, with out proof, because I know I could GET proof if I wanted to. Most religions require faith, but have no way of offering proof. I suppose it's enough for some people, but it isn't enough for others. Because of this, I found a religion that I can believe in, that doesn't need proof at all. Pardon the long story before I get to this part, but I wanted to establish a number of things first.

I am a Satanist. Now, before you jump to any conclusions, I doubt you know much about what LaVey Satanism really is, much in the same way that most people expect lack of understanding about what Christianity really is. So, let me take a moment to explain basically what I believe. First off, LaVey Satanism is NOT the worship of Satan. In fact, I don't believe he exists. I believe he's the personification of evil in this world. I don't believe in any higher diety or power, nor do any LaVey Satanists. Seriously. Yes, there are the Theistic Satanists who do worship the Christian devil, but the form of Satanism I'm speaking of is far from that. There are no gods, no devils, no supreme beings of any kind. What we are, is true to ourself. I treat myself as my own god. Of course this doesn't mean that I consider myself to be a god, or think I have supernatural powers* or anything like that. It simply means that I honor myself, I try to remain pure, and I believe in myself. LaVey proposes that as all gods are creations of man, worship of an external deity is worship of its creator by proxy. He suggests, then, that the rational Satanist should instead internalize his god, and therefore worship himself; hence the Satanic maxim, "I am my own god." I treat others with the respect that I seek from them, and I follow the 11 commandments.

Over all, though, aside from my spiritual beliefs, I'm not that different from a Christian. I help those who I can if at all possible. I don't hurt others if I can avoid it. I'd rather settle my differences with words and come to an understanding. I love and respect all life. I'm as happy as can be with the world and my place in it. I feel sad with all the suffering. I feel hurt by all the violence. And I feel pain by all the hatred.

Given my views on the church, and the fact that I don't believe I should be forced to live eternally if I don't wish to, of what benefit would Christianity be to me? I find it mildly comical that Christians, on average, seem to think everybody wants to be saved. I've had Christian friends of mine not respect my beliefs for many years, trying to get me to switch countless times. I respect their beliefs, and I've not once tried to convert anybody to Satanism. Sure, I'll answer any questions they have, but I've always told them to seek what is in their heart, and choose the path that is right for them. Again, I'm posting this at the request of my Christian friend. I've told him all this before, but I guess he wants others to try to gang up on me, so I must again apologize if anybody who's read this wall of text feels I wasted their time.





As for the * next to "supernatural powers", I should point out that LaVey Satanism has the OPTION to believe in the occult such as magic. However that is up to each person individually, and, it is not witchcraft as some think but more the pagan practices of respect for the elements, bordering almost on ancient Celtic/Druidic beliefs about respecting nature. I do believe that the human mind can attune to nature a little better than we do, which allows people to feel patterns in the weather, change their perception of things, etc. I don't believe that I can cast Level 5 Blizzard on anybody, and freeze them in a block of ice if I have the 5 talent points.

The 7 pillars are actually from Theistic Satanism, not LeVayan.

The 11 commandments (what I call them, officially they're known as "Rules") are as follows:

1) Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2) Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3) When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4) If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5) Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6) Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7) Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
cool Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9) Do not harm little children.
10) Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11) When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

There's also the 9 Satanic Statements.

1) Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.
2) Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.
3) Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.
4) Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates.
5) Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.
6) Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.
7) Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.
cool Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.
9) Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as it has kept it in business all these years.

Now, it's important to realize that Satan, as referenced in the 9 statements, is not a being but is the personification of our belief. For the most part (with the exception of #8 and #9) you can replace "Satan" with "We" or "They", when speaking about people who follow this faith. Since we don't believe in Satan as a literal being (nor do we worship evil, or really anything at all), the wording was mostly done to represent something like a president leading a country. Satan's a figurehead, so to speak. I don't really know how exactly I can explain it better. As for the last 2, most (if not all sins) lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification. But physical, mental, or emotional gratification itself is not a sin. I get emotional gratification by helping the people I care about. I get physical gratification by hugging those who I love. Certainly no crimes there. And then of course the last one was meant as a joke smile

Because knowledge and understanding is power. By being constrained to a specific fact that people are unable (or unwilling) to question, they must reject all knowldge/science that contradicts that specific fact.

Science offer proof that the Earth is billions of years old. Most Christians believe the world is a few thousand years old, and that mankind and dinosaurs lived side by side.

In that respect, to them my "proof" is flawed, and their "belief" is right, even though they have no proof to back it up nor can they dispute the validity of my findings with anything other than "Your data is faulty."

The majority of religions encourage faith and belief with out proof. At some point, though, those religions would have its members believe that they are right, and others who don't share their beliefs are wrong. When 2 different faiths each believe they're right and each other is wrong, isn't each living in ignorance, thinking the other is wrong and not even considering the possibility that we're all human, and maybe we're both right, or both wrong? That's hypocritical self-deceit right there - deceiving onself that just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true.

I'm not going to turn this into a debate by saying that Christianity isn't true, or any religion for that, but consider this if you will:

Remember when you believed in Santa Clause? Doesn't mean there's a fat dude breaking into your house every year through a chimney. Just because you believe in something, that doesn't make it true. When you do believe in something that isn't true, however, you're being hypocritical of others thinking that you're right, and thus they can't be, and, you're full of self-deceit by being too sure of yourself and your beliefs to consider any other possibility.

Now, take the above scenario with Santa Clause and remember how you'd have reacted (or if you have young children, how they'd react) to the idea that Santa doesn't exist. Now, apply it to yourself with regards to faith. You're so sure you're right (and again, I'm not saying you aren't), that you're probably unwilling to consider the possibility that somebody else may be right as well, or that you're wrong, or a million other things. Further more, your faith teaches you not to question it. There's no loophole, you have to believe it and you cannot consider another's point of view to be truthful if it differs from your own.

That's what it mens by hypocritical self-deceit. And that's why I dislike most religions. My religion makes every allowance for yours to be right. I'm still happy with it. The only goal in my faith is to be a good person. Christianity, Islam, even the Jewish faith, all require you to accept that, and that only as the one and only possible truth. Well, lets face it, you can't *all* be right. So if Christianity is right after all, the Jews, the Muslims, the Shintos, and everybody else who believes in a god is full of hypocritical self-deceit, because they can't see the forest for the trees, and their mindset is such that they are absolutly right and everybody else isn't. What if Christianity is wrong? Again I'm not saying it is, but what if? How many Christians could honestly see the "proof" and take a leap of faith?





Please note that I am trying as hard as I possibly can to write this in as non-offending a way as possible, but I have to say that a lot of what I believe does contradict other faiths, and thus, it's getting harder and harder to explain it in a way that doesn't make it sound like anybody is wrong. I hope I'm succeeding.

If that's your definition of Christian, then I'm anything but.

I would never accept a possibly fallible book over science, I have no problem considering viewpoints that differ from my own or "the norm"'s, I'm ALWAYS questioning matters of doctrine and faith (I'm still not sure if the Arian view is correct, because nobody is willing to teach me anything meaningful about it except "IT'S RONG111").

If I believe in God, but I also believe in science, am I hypocritical?

Along the discussion of that, i believe it says somewhere in the bible that biblical years are not equal to the human measurement of times (biblical years != our years). Which is why i think the bible says nobody will know when the day comes of the Armageddon. So possibly science and religion are both right?

Also, i believe that when God created everything, he made it according to science. I mean, what would be more phenomenal then God not just creating everything, but doing it according to physics, and all the other laws?

And i do sorta believe in evolution, more so adaption though. i mean... however many years it took Noah to build the arc (100?), it still couldn't have held 2 of every species. i was just wondering why its one or the other and not possibly both...

and when i did (not if) screw this up or get off subject or misunderstand something, i am sorry

I'm not much for arguments or debates right now.. i just came back from the most powerful church retreat i have EVER been on. Now, i don't think myself from it... i think myself the biggest screw up in the world, but I know that Jesus loves me, so i push on to try and be better. Let me explain why there are so many different faiths of Christianity. The protestants came into being.. with martin Luther. They rejected him because he believed that people should be allowed to read the bible. He broke off, and started his own church. People... if not satisfied by their... religion, either the way they worship, or the lessons of their ministers... they will break off, and go to one that fits their wants and needs. As for me... I'm all for worship, strong, powerful worship, where we clap, dance, sing, and give God our all. Another big reason that the Protestant faith came into being is because they believed that the Catholic church was corrupt... and for all intents and purposes... it was so. BACK THEN. I go to a catholic school.. and i assure you, i'm not particulary fond of Catholicism... it annoys me. they have no life.. at least not in my school. No one claps, no one dances, they just sit there. they dont even sing. and the... lessons... the leader doesnt get excited.. as in my church, our pastor goes crazy... from time to time... and it gets people stirred up. Thats what i love about the Pentecostal faith... we are encouraged to get fired up for what we believe. To make a stand where others dont. I love it, every bit of it. I do agree, however, that the church IS corrupt... and that we have... fake christians.. people who go to church and just act like they're worshipping... that annoys me, but... it's not my place to judge, i'll let God take care of them when their time comes. Now please.. dont take offense to any of this, the last thing i want is for you to be offended, or to start an argument. Satan is the "enemy" of our souls, and aims to bring us down. And, i know (according to history channel) you dont outwardly worship Satan. (please dont take offense to this.. its kinda a question, and i didnt take the time to read the other posts, so you may have already answered it.. if so, just say so, i'll scroll up and read) but isn't satanism alot like Athiesim... I mean, you dont worship anything, BUT you have a set of rules which you must follow. Ok... this is perhaps the most.. possible thing to offend you and PLEASSSSEEEE dont take it in a condemning, mocking, or offensive way. Perhaps in your search for something solid to believe in... You didn't want to give christianity a shot cuz of past experiences? again, please dont take this as me condemning you.. its not. I'm just trying to understand. If you dont want to go back and forth with this LONG posts.. perhaps you can explain it all to me via PM? if you don't wish to share WHY exactly you choose this path... i wont push you. But i would like to know...


as for the amount that WOULD go to start a war with the muslims... Those who TRULY have put their faith in God... would ask God before believing the words of an imperfect man.

Yes, I agree with that. The problem become when the branches are no longer compatible. For example, how many groups split off from the Catholic (arguably, the "main" church, since all other forms of Christianity are derived from it). Many. Now, how many of those same groups are consistent with the Catholic church today? None. There's differences - some very small ones, and some not so small ones. Since their beliefs are similar, but not exact, who's right? Was the Catholic church right all along, and the people who split off wrong? Was the Catholic church wrong the whole time, and the people who split off right? What is to say that BOTH aren't wrong in some way or another? There's so many different groups, all with so many different beliefs, the only thing in common between them all is they believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Spook. So, at this point, from a purely outside point of view, one has to come to the following conclusion, logically. Either that very basic belief is enough to be a Christian, and enough to be saved, or, the majority of all Christians are all wrong and going to hell, despite their beliefs. It's very much like Highlander - there can be only one (truth).

So here's my question to you, now. If you can accept people turning their back on their religion, and finding a new one that fits their needs with respects to a different aspect of Christianity, is it that hard to believe that somebody may not find any part of Christianity acceptable?



First off, not to argue, but I, too, went to a Catholic school, and it wasn't quite as bad as you describe. Yes, services were boring, and our priests never did anything except look like they were at a funeral, but as for the rest of class, even religion class, we talked, laughed, sang, etc. And I attended for 9 years, we had some really good times too. So, your statement of "no lives" isn't fully accurate, I believe.



First off, Satan is your enemy, not mine. As a Christian, you believe in 2 supernatural beings. God (and since Jesus and the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Spook are both aspects of God, too, they aren't separate - 3 beings, 1 God is what I was always taught), and his counterpart, but not as powerful, Satan, but who still has supernatural powers.

To be a Christian, by definition, requires you to believe in Jesus, and God, and thus, by proxy, Satan as well. So, he's very much your enemy. I, however, don't have that problem. I say he isn't my enemy, because I don't believe in him. I don't believe he exists now, nor ever has. I believe that he was created by human beings, so that he could be blamed by us for our shortcomings. Rather than say "I sinned because I'm weak", it became "I sinned because I was tempted by Satan". Humans have historically (and even today) required at some level a scapegoat to blame things on that they couldn't control (supernaturally speaking), or that they didn't want to control (their own actions/thoughts). And, this system has worked quite well for years. Being what I am, however, forces me to take responsibility for my own actions, at a level most people don't. Yes, people take responsibility for their own actions all the time, but do they really, internally? They may hit somebody, take responsibility by apologizing, or being punished, etc, but do they really look inside themselves and say "Gee, I really did that, I'm sorry" or do they try to blame it on something else? "I had a really lousy day and he just rubbed me the wrong way." or "Satan tempted me and I was weak" or something similar? I haven't a crutch any more to stand on like that.

As for my search for something solid to believe in, I did give Christianity a try. I was born, baptized, raised, and confirmed as a Catholic. It just didn't sit well. I've always hated the hypocrisy around Christianity - please don't be offended, but it is true. I was taught that God is all about choice. We have to choose to worship him. We have to choose to repent our sins. We have to choose this, we have to choose that. He gave us freedom of will for that explicit purpose. However, I don't believe there really is a choice at all - I think God's just giving people the illusion of a choice, similar to the Matrix (movie). Lets examine those choices for a second, and you'll see what I mean.

1) I choose to reject God, live a bad life hurting people, sinning regularly, and go to hell to suffer for all eternity.
2) I choose to accept God, live a good life, and go to heaven to be happy for all eternity.
3) I choose to reject God, live a good life, and still go to hell to suffer for all eternity.

Pretty basic. I'm not happy with them. Here's why:

Going to hell - obviously, I'm not a big fan of the eternal damnation and suffering thing.
Going to heaven - I'm not a happy person. In fact, the only happiness I seem to get comes from helping others. If I'm not suffering in some way, I'm not happy, because I'm obsessing over what is wrong that I'm *not* seeing. I'm quite comfortable with that, too. So, heaven, where there's nothing wrong (and by that definition, nobody to help), would not make me happy. Not unless I'm "altered" in heaven, which I'm really against - I'm happy with who I am, and for me to spend eternity as a lie, would drive me crazy. So I really see heaven as just as bad as hell, for me. And lets face it, eternity is a VERY long time to be tortured or constantly happy, either.

So where's my 3rd choice: to simply cease to exist? That's what I really want. When I die, my consciousness just fades to blah. No eternal life, no suffering, no being happy, just cold, unending black, and no consciousness to bother with. But no, I'm being forced to live eternally by your God. A *real* choice would be to not be forced that life I don't want. Not in "You're forced this upon you, but you can decide how to spend your eternity". I don't think that's fair. I didn't ask to be born, but I'm making the best of it. I'm not suicidal, by any means, but when my time is up, that's it - I want my time to be, up.

The bottom line is that you believe your god is all good, and satan is all evil. I don't see the universe as that well defined. Things aren't black and white like that. If there is a supernatural being, I have to believe he'd be capable of evil, even if he was an overall good being.
Then again, I also don't need something supernatural to believe in for me to be content in this life (and I hope there isn't a next one).

The reason (and way) I embrace my religion is different than the reason and way you embrace yours. Mine isn't a requirement to me. There's nothing to believe in, other than a set of guidelines (not even rules) that define how I should try to live my life. The key word there is "try". I don't *want* to believe in anything supernatural. I don't *need* any reason or meaning for this world. It's enough for me to simply be here, and when the experience is done with, I'm done, and quite happy to be burned to ashes and released back into the natural world to nourish and support new life. Does my religion mean anything to me? Yea, it does, but not what it means to you. I seek neither a ritual, a requirement of a higher being, nor people to congregate with to reinforce my beliefs. Simply, a desire to live my life being as good a person as I can, because I believe it to be the moral thing to do, and because I'm greedy, and it gives me pleasure. That sums up my belief system pretty much.

Still would be against it. It would feel too much like running around in circles to me (same reason I don't like Nascar razz )