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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:07 pm
Here is another one.
Artificial intelligence. We are dawning on a time when such thing is possible. Assume we create a robot which can learn. Which can feel emotion and has self-awareness, along with other human traits, such as the ability to inference information, the ability to compare and contrast objects and ideas, and the ability to create it's own perceptions and feelings on subjects. Basically, a human being made not from flesh and bone but aluminum and silicon.
Should this being be able to go on to heaven? Even if they (and I personally disagree with this being the only method, but for the sake of this discussion) accept Jesus as their savior? Do you beleive they would have a soul?
Here is a hypothetical to make one more sympathetic to such a robot, to ensure that you cannot simply say "Metal is never alive".
Say you have a problem in your brain. Using a tiny microchip, doctors replace a sinlge neuron. This chip relays the same signals as a normal neuron, in the same way. Are you still human? Now, say it happens again. you now have 2 out of billions of cells which are mechanical. You are still you, correct? Now, assume this happens all of those billions of times. Finally, your entire mind will be made of chips. Arey ou still you? Where is your soul? You never died. You still continue as usual, and think the same as usual.
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:45 pm
No. They still lack one thing that humans have, a soul.
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:58 pm
CCubed No. They still lack one thing that humans have, a soul. agreed no soul-no go
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:07 pm
This seems cold to me. And how can we say they have no soul?
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:21 pm
divineseraph This seems cold to me. And how can we say they have no soul? agreed they very well might be able to have a soul
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Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:42 pm
Anything that has self-awareness, that is a rational, thinking being, which is able to develop personal morals, has a soul.
However, God did not create this. Man did. And THAT is the issue we should be discussing here.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:53 am
Exactly. Or at least, if you deny that it has a soul, what constitutes a soul?
See the hypothetical situation above. If you have one neuron in your brain replaced with a mechanical one, you are still you, right? You still have a soul. How many neurons can be swtiched out before you no longer have a soul? Remember, eventually ALL of your neurons, under this process, will in the end be artificial. You will not die or stop thinking, since it will be done one neuron at a time. You will still have your feelings and emotions and personality.
Is your soul gone, however, now that you are a machine?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:40 am
divineseraph Exactly. Or at least, if you deny that it has a soul, what constitutes a soul? See the hypothetical situation above. If you have one neuron in your brain replaced with a mechanical one, you are still you, right? You still have a soul. How many neurons can be swtiched out before you no longer have a soul? Remember, eventually ALL of your neurons, under this process, will in the end be artificial. You will not die or stop thinking, since it will be done one neuron at a time. You will still have your feelings and emotions and personality. Is your soul gone, however, now that you are a machine? yeah but that has to deal with one's mental capacity. not spiritual capacity. one's soul has nothing to do with how one thinks...or what causes one to think. it has to deal with our connection to God and that God placed the soul in us. we-his creation-were created to be in unison with him. a machine that was built by man is just that..a machine. made from metal and electricity and motorized gears. not flesh and blood. it doesn't truly have the ability to have morals. that is something that is of the heart. it can only follow it's programing...even if it is artificial intelligence and has learned to 'think on it's own.' shiroi has a point on it's more of the fact that we, man-kind, created it not God.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:12 am
trinity343 [...]a machine. made from metal and electricity and motorized gears. Consider that human beings are primarily composed of water and carbon animated by electrical currents traveling through our nervous system. On their own, these elements are as inanimate as any hunk of iron; incorporating them into a living machine doesn't change that fact. The human body is essentially a colony of highly specialized self-replicating organic machines (cells). It's easy to dismiss a machine composed of sheet metal and motors as 'soulless', but what about, say, a machine made up inorganic nano-machines that behave in the same manner as human cells? Such a creature would be 'alive' in every sense of the word even though it was made of fundamentally different materials. Or, to put a religious spin on it: 'The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.' Or a literary spin: 'He felt goose pimples clacking all over him as he gazed down despondently at the grim secret Snowden had spilled all over the messy floor. It was easy to read the message in his entrails. Man was matter, that was Snowden's secret. Drop him out a window and he'll fall. Set fire to him and he'll burn. Bury him and he'll rot, like other kinds of garbage. The spirit gone, man is garbage. That was Snowden's secret. Ripeness was all.' ( Catch-22, Joseph Heller) Point is, your elemental makeup is immaterial when compared to that fact that one is alive.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:01 am
It seems strange.... while tangled here does have an interesting point, I still don't understand how a machine could have a soul or make a decision to follow Christ. Even if it does somehow, hypothetically, what happens when it passes away? And, when Jesus returns, the Resurrection will occur. Will the soul that was inhabiting the machine get a body like a human? I don't think God would make a new machine for the soul, but then again, He might. Thoughts? Another thought, how can we truly know whether or not this kind of machine man can truly understand and decide to follow Christ?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:40 pm
Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical?
But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing.
About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body?
Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:50 pm
Seraph68 Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical? But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing. About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body? Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life. Exactly. Even if all my neurons were replaced with machines i'd still have a soul because I was born with one. This machine, is limited. It has what its programming allows. If it can learn through AI, it's still based on the AI programming, it doesn't per se "think" by itself.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:37 pm
CCubed Seraph68 Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical? But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing. About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body? Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life. Exactly. Even if all my neurons were replaced with machines i'd still have a soul because I was born with one. This machine, is limited. It has what its programming allows. If it can learn through AI, it's still based on the AI programming, it doesn't per se "think" by itself. You say it follows a program. But this is true of humans as well. We follow an evolutionary programming. Much like how a chicken knows how to break from an egg and a human knows how to breath on birth. We have a set guide of rules, programs if you will. A will to survive. hunger. Fear. it is an extremely complex, complex and twisting and self-sufficient program, yes. Trillions of times more complicated than any computer can do now. But it is a program none the less. i am not saying a computer we have today, no. But a code as similar to ours as we can manage. A computer which is born with instinct but no knowledge, which can learn and inference just like any other human. And from these inferences, feel emotion. Just like a human. Did you know that chemicals dictate your feelings? When you are happy, chemicals in your brain are telling you to be this way? I personally believe that the brain is like a radio reciever for the soul. It can be broken, and the signal will be hazy. If it breaks completely, the thing the signal controls will stop. And as such, a robot brain could be no different than a human brain. But what happens to the feelings of a robot when it dies with no soul? Is it truly nihilism for this creature? Can God allow a feeling ,thinking being to die simply because it is made by man and of metal rather than by earth and of flesh?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:58 pm
divineseraph CCubed Seraph68 Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical? But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing. About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body? Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life. Exactly. Even if all my neurons were replaced with machines i'd still have a soul because I was born with one. This machine, is limited. It has what its programming allows. If it can learn through AI, it's still based on the AI programming, it doesn't per se "think" by itself. You say it follows a program. But this is true of humans as well. We follow an evolutionary programming. Much like how a chicken knows how to break from an egg and a human knows how to breath on birth. We have a set guide of rules, programs if you will. A will to survive. hunger. Fear. it is an extremely complex, complex and twisting and self-sufficient program, yes. Trillions of times more complicated than any computer can do now. But it is a program none the less. i am not saying a computer we have today, no. But a code as similar to ours as we can manage. A computer which is born with instinct but no knowledge, which can learn and inference just like any other human. And from these inferences, feel emotion. Just like a human. Did you know that chemicals dictate your feelings? When you are happy, chemicals in your brain are telling you to be this way? I personally believe that the brain is like a radio reciever for the soul. It can be broken, and the signal will be hazy. If it breaks completely, the thing the signal controls will stop. And as such, a robot brain could be no different than a human brain. But what happens to the feelings of a robot when it dies with no soul? Is it truly nihilism for this creature? Can God allow a feeling ,thinking being to die simply because it is made by man and of metal rather than by earth and of flesh? The difference being I don't have to follow my set of rules. This machine can't deny its programming, it must follow its rules. For example, if the code says that once every twelve hours it has to eat, it will eat. It can't deny the directive to eat unless its coded to be allowed to deny it. I myself can deny myself food. I will die, but I can ignore my set of rules. That is the difference.
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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:17 am
CCubed divineseraph CCubed Seraph68 Can we make something that is spiritual? It is very possible that we could make something that simulates having a soul, but that does not mean that it has a soul. Is the soul a set of actions or the spiritual part of person that is distinct from the physical? But what if the AI could “earn/develop” a soul? If this was possible for an AI to earn a soul, then it is God who would do that then (in my personal opinion, I doubt this is a possibility). I also believe that it is impossible to develop a soul, as the AI is a physical object (a computer programmed to act human) that would develop a spiritual aspect (not spiritual awareness, like knowledge of God) out of nothing. About the Organic to Machine issue, how “human” must one remain to keep their soul? Like it was said before, our bodies are just an arrangement of elements, so to some degree switching over to machine body is plausible. The next question is how is the soul “bound” to the body? I do not know, there may be some point where the soul is no longer bound to the body because the last bit of humanity (organic flesh) dies in the process of being replaced by machine. But does that mean the soul cannot transfer over to the synthetic body? Also, let’s say that memories are not a part of the soul. While I believe that our soul will carry the memories of this life into the afterlife, having the ability to recall events from a precyberized life is not the same as retaining the soul from a precyberized life. Exactly. Even if all my neurons were replaced with machines i'd still have a soul because I was born with one. This machine, is limited. It has what its programming allows. If it can learn through AI, it's still based on the AI programming, it doesn't per se "think" by itself. You say it follows a program. But this is true of humans as well. We follow an evolutionary programming. Much like how a chicken knows how to break from an egg and a human knows how to breath on birth. We have a set guide of rules, programs if you will. A will to survive. hunger. Fear. it is an extremely complex, complex and twisting and self-sufficient program, yes. Trillions of times more complicated than any computer can do now. But it is a program none the less. i am not saying a computer we have today, no. But a code as similar to ours as we can manage. A computer which is born with instinct but no knowledge, which can learn and inference just like any other human. And from these inferences, feel emotion. Just like a human. Did you know that chemicals dictate your feelings? When you are happy, chemicals in your brain are telling you to be this way? I personally believe that the brain is like a radio reciever for the soul. It can be broken, and the signal will be hazy. If it breaks completely, the thing the signal controls will stop. And as such, a robot brain could be no different than a human brain. But what happens to the feelings of a robot when it dies with no soul? Is it truly nihilism for this creature? Can God allow a feeling ,thinking being to die simply because it is made by man and of metal rather than by earth and of flesh? The difference being I don't have to follow my set of rules. This machine can't deny its programming, it must follow its rules. For example, if the code says that once every twelve hours it has to eat, it will eat. It can't deny the directive to eat unless its coded to be allowed to deny it. I myself can deny myself food. I will die, but I can ignore my set of rules. That is the difference. Again, this is a strict rule. What if it said "When the contents of your stomach become low, you will get a signal. Denying this signal will relate in shutdown. Eating will sate said shutdown time until fuel runs low again." People can choose not to eat every 12 hours. And as such, this hypothetical robot could too. It is not a wise idea, as most people don't want to starve to death. Think not of a rigid set of rules, but one like the complex set we have. "Eat when your hungry. this defines hunger-" Sleep when you are tired, this defines tired-"
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